The Brentwood Beginners Workshop in Los Angeles, CA

So let's welcome our speaker tonight, Harvey.

Oh, good evening. My name is Harvey and I'm an alcoholic. I want to thank Steve for

asking me to speak.

I'm a little discombobulated. My arm hurts.

I I got a pneumonia shot. I got a pneumonia shot yesterday. I was at the doctors

and he said need a pneumonia shot and I said well I had one eight or nine years ago, you sure I need one? He said. You haven't had pneumonia, have you?

So he gave me one and it went too far into the muscle and I can't lift my arm, so my arm hurts. I know, I know, I know. And I appreciate the sympathy. Thank you very much.

I want to assure you that I'm a pure alcoholic. Just in case any of you were wondering, I only did drugs one time

for 18 years, but it was just that one time.

I'm going to tell you about my bottom just so you can understand it, rather than do a drunkalog because this is a, this is a workshop and we're supposed to talk our about our sobriety. My bottom happened in August and September of 1982. It was a Saturday morning. It was the morning of my daughters bat mitzvah. You all know what a bat mitzvah is, right? And it was the morning of my daughter's bat mitzvah. It was that afternoon. This was a Saturday morning and on the front page of the LA Times was my picture.

And not a nice one. Wasn't the publicity shot. It was a mug shot

and it said entertainment business manager indicted on 185 counts of Grand Theft

and

it was all a mistake. I'm just.

You know, I, I laughed because I looked down at Kathleen and Kathleen was working for me. The day, the day's we, I was out of town, the day that she went to work one morning and walked in and the day's office was in there, aid investigators tearing my office apart on a search warrant and she walked in. You know, I I wouldn't have, but she did.

But

anyway, I had to go to this party later on that afternoon, my daughter's bat mitzvah with 400 of my ex wife's nearest and dearest friends. And it was just murder. It was just murder that was my bottom. I walked into that room and 400 people looked at me with absolute disgust and revulsion in their eyes. Now I may have seen that before. I, I don't remember it, but, but I may have seen it before, but I have never seen it

in, in, in those numbers. And I was devastated. I mean, I can close my eyes and see it right now. It was crushing

to me. It was nothing I could do about it and I had to get through that day. It was a hard day for me. It was an extremely hard day for my poor daughter. You know, we have, we have gone through that and and come out the other side hopefully. But

I've made my amends tour and I've made my men store by being as good a father as I can be over the years. I didn't get sober then because I've never had a problem with alcohol and drugs. My problem has always been people. They just left me alone. I'd be fine. Just get out of my way, get out of my face, leave me alone.

I'm fine. Jack Daniels and drugs were always the solution. They were never, they were never the problem.

It wasn't until almost a year to the day later again on a Saturday in September, I was in temple again for a holiday called Yom Kippur, which is the holiest day in the Jewish religion. It is the day we are there asking God to atone for our sins. And God knew I needed to be there for about 3 months, you know, but it was a one day gig and, and, and we sang this prayer called the Elena the adoration. And I got very emotional over it and I started to cry and I turned to my wife and my two kids who happened to be with us at the time. And I said, excuse me, I have to go to the bathroom.

And I walked into the bathroom and I pulled out this little emergency stash of cocaine that I used to carry with me for the many emergencies that occurred during a day. And, and,

and I was about to do a couple of toots and I said, why am I doing this? And I threw it out. I just threw it out and I have no idea why I threw it out. That was September the 17th, 1983. And I haven't had a drink or a drug or anything since that date of this, you know, and I don't, I still don't know why I threw it out at that point. I've been doing, I've been drinking and doing drugs on a daily basis for 18 years and and had never once stopped, had never once felt any guilt, any remorse, any clue that that

drugs and alcohol were were my problem and we're causing the problems that were going on in my life. I had absolutely no idea. And I went and I did, I sat down, I didn't say anything to anybody because I didn't realize the significance of my actions at that point. And,

and, and I was, you know, I was fine. I was fine that day and I was fine on Sunday and I was fine on Monday. And Tuesday morning I woke up and I thought I was going to absolutely explode out of my skin. Every nerve ending in my body was on fire. My body ached. I mean, it was just, it seemed like somebody was beating me with a baseball bat

and I picked the phone up and I called this guy named Tom Kenny that I had known for years. Tom was the head of the employee assistance program of the Motion picture Health Fund. And, and I called him up and I told him what I was feeling and, and, and Tom knew what was going on. And he suggested I go to a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. And for some strange reason, I followed that advice and I went that night and I went to a meeting called the whatever meeting it was at the old Ayatsi union hall on Sunset and Gardner. And I walked up the steps of this of this meeting hall into this room that

changed my life. It was pure magic going on. It was called to whatever meeting because everybody was kicking whatever in the meeting. I mean, people were bouncing off the walls. There were fights in every corner. Their knives were coming out. Chairs were flying. It was it was 250 people that were firmly rooted in the problem. And it was magical, you know, just magical. I ran into this guy named Jim Lo.

And I talk about Jim all the time. And Jim, Jim and I had known each other for about 15 years. We were both in the music business. And, and Jim said two things to me that night. He asked me if I was willing to go to any lengths to stay sober. And for some strange reason, I answered yes. And then he pulled out a meeting directory and he circled the meeting for the next night. And he said, Harvey, if you meet me at this meeting tomorrow night, we'll go out for dinner afterwards. And that's why I went to my second meeting,

because it had been a long time since anybody invited me out to dinner and I and, and because I didn't hear anything that went on at that first meeting. I mean, my head was going too much.

The reason I talk about Jim all the time is because when I had eight months of sobriety, Jimmy, who would never go to any lengths to stay sober, he could never put together 30 days. He killed himself and I don't know why. 23 years later, I'm sober and Jim's dead. I refuse to believe that God loved me more than he loved Jim. When I hear about people saying that they're only sober by the grace of God, that's OK for you, but it drives me crazy because does that mean that God doesn't touch his grace on the people that are still drinking or the people that that that have died from this disease?

I can't believe in a God like that. That was the God of my childhood. I have to believe that God loves us all enough to touch us and show us this program. And then it's up to us to work our butts off to stay here 'cause it's hard, it's difficult. You know, it's hell, it's UN American. When you think about it, you know, this is this is a drug and alcohol society that we live in.

Jim took me over and introduced me to a guy that that first night who later became my sponsor and coincidentally was a guy that I went to high school with, that I had known for years.

And he took me over to the sky. And Bill asked me that same question, asked me if I was willing to go to any lengths and stay sober. And I again, I answered yes. And he got me involved in this program. You know, he got me. He got me involved in going to meetings. We got commitments at all the meetings. I said, I said, how many? I said how many meetings should I go to?

We go to meetings. We go to meetings, meetings, meetings, meetings, meetings. He didn't tell me this. 90 meetings in 90 days. He just said we go to meetings. He said are you working? I said no. He said you go to meetings and I went to meetings all the time. I said how long do I have to go to these meetings for? And he didn't give me that pad answer oh, until you want to. He said 18 months

and I said OK, I can hang for 18 months. I mean, you know, I don't know

now. It never dawned on me to ask him why, with four years of sobriety, he was still going to meetings. But I didn't care about him. I'm only thinking about me. You know, he, he wants to go. He can go. I only had to go for 18 months.

We did 12 step calls. We were going to every, every junkie motel in Hollywood and picking them up and taking them and taking them to Norms to do 12 step calls on them. You know, and I remember after a year now that one of those guys stayed sober and I mentioned it to Bill. I said none of these guys stayed sober. He said yes they did. I said no, they didn't. Man, I go to these meetings. None of them have ever shown up. He said we stayed sober and I got what was involved. You know, I got the whole thing.

I put on 85 lbs when I got sober.

Well, instead of that diet of Jack Daniels and drugs, I was doing a gallon of dry his ice cream every three days.

And without a spoon. I just like to, I just like to to warm it up and dip my face in it. You know, I love eating ice cream that way. And I was out. I mean it literally. Patty couldn't get her arms around me. I was so huge. It was just, it was hysterical and,

and you know, I, I'll tell you, I remember I got a year and my sponsor said to me says, OK, you got a year, it's time for you to take a cake. And I said I'm not taking a cake. I was too scared to stand up here. I could not stand up here. I couldn't raise my hand as a newcomer. I took two chips, a 90 day chip and a nine month chip, but I just couldn't do it. And I said I'm not going to take a cake. And if you make me take a cake, I'm going to get loaded.

And he and he looked at me and he said I don't care.

And I said you don't care if I if I take a cake or you don't care if I get loaded. He said either one, he said, whatever you want to do, I'm going to stay sober. So I didn't take a cake and I stayed sober. And you know what, I've always regretted that. I've always regretted not taking my first year cake. It was really, it was not not the smartest thing I did, but I did. But I did a lot of dumb things in those days. When I had 17 months of sobriety, I finally had to go to court to find out what they were going to do with me because there was some question as to what they were going to do with me.

There was no question as to my guilt, but there was question as to what they were going to do with me. And they, the DA didn't didn't quite know what to ask for because there have been conflicting probation reports written. The my lawyer was a little too loaded to know what to ask for and, and

but the judge knew, you know, he could. He congratulated me on my obviously sincere attempt to rehabilitate myself. And then he banged that gavel down and sentenced me to five years in state penitentiary.

And actually what he did was he sentenced me to five, five and five. That's what I heard, Five, five and five.

And then he ran him concurrently, but I didn't hear running him concurrently. So all I knew was I had five, five and five and I was frozen. I was just frozen. I was on crutches. I'd had my Achilles tendon reconstructed a couple of months before that. And I was so my bad leg couldn't move and I'm not sitting there on crutches and my good leg wasn't about to move. And the sheriff came up behind me and literally lifted me up and carried me out and dumped me in this little holding cell

and, and, and behind the courtroom. And there I was facing what I thought at the time was 15 years,

scared to death. I was 40 years old, upper middle class, Jewish accountant, for God's sakes. What did I know about the subculture that existed in, in, in jail? I mean, and it was weird.

And I stood there and I, I said the serenity prayer.

And guys, I want to tell you, God forbid any of you ever find yourself in that position or you're sitting behind a courtroom after being being sentenced to the penitentiary.

Don't bother saying the Serenity Prayer. It doesn't help.

I mean,

it's a great, it's a great prayer and all that, but

but it it just doesn't work. It just doesn't work,

I said the prayer I sang right before I got sober. That didn't work. Then I thought to myself,

if I ever hear somebody at a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous say that their worst day of sobriety is better than their best day of using, I'm going to rip out their larynx and the rage help, you know, It was great. I love that I took the second-half of the first step right there. Finally, I'd given it a lot of lip service. You know, it was easy for me to admit that I was powerless over alcohol, but my life being unmanageable was not easy because I was a man, you know, and I was raised in that generation by my father and John Wayne and men, men can

troll their destiny by their sheer will. And I always knew that. So I gave Idlib service, but I never truly believed it. Well, standing in that holding cell, not being able to leave, I started to leave. I went to the gate to go get a drink of water. What did I know? And this guy said he was sitting down and said, me, where you going, man? I said, I'm going to go get a drink of water. He said, man, you drink out of the toilet like the rest of us. Now, it's not really drinking out of the toilet. It's kind of a, it's a very cute little unit. It's an all in one. It's a

a sink in a toilet. You know it's in very very nice. I tried to buy one one time for a buddy of mine when he got out and,

and, and I find out, I found out you couldn't buy one. You had to buy 500 of them. But but that's where I had to drink the water was out of that sink. And and I got it that my life was unmanageable. I mean, it was,

it was terrible.

What happened to me was basically they brought me down from the joint three months later on what's called the sentence modification. They knocked the year off my sentence. I had a net of four. And in California in those days you did roughly half time. I did 22 months in the state penitentiary and five months in a work furlough house. It's the reason that I'm alive and sober today. Had there not been consequences to my actions, I I doubt that I would have been sober. I needed a place to go to make the amends I would never be able to make. I needed a place to go to knockout my omnipotence and most of my arrogance. I needed a place to go

where people could show me that I was capable and worthy of being loved. I used to get 20 to 25 letters a week from from people in this program. Every week people would come down to see me. Every couple of weeks. My two friends Neil and Richard and Neil, sitting here tonight would pack their car up full of newcomers and say, you guys think you got it bad, Let's go see Harve, you know, boom.

And he bring these poor fools out onto the visiting yard. You know, it was really a trip. But I chiefly, I believe all that could have been accomplished in about 5 weeks, but

but it didn't, it didn't work that way. I'm going to tell you one quick story and get out of that penitentiary.

Yeah, yeah, I'll tell it. I've been down about six or seven weeks and I was lying on my bunk and. And I felt my bunk shake and I knew that life as I had lived it was gone forever. Standing over me was this huge guy, huge, buffed up. Everybody in the joint worked out with weights. Not me, but everybody else didn't.

And he had lightning bolts tattooed all over his body. He had the three leaf Clover over his left breast, which signifies Aryan brotherhood. He had Oildale tattooed over his belly button. Oildales, this little city outside of Bakersfield, it's the only city in California has its own Ku Klux Klan clubhouse. You know, he's got SWP for Supreme white power tattooed under his belly button. And he looks down at me and I detect what I think is a little glint of love in his eye, you know? And

And he says, Is your name Harvilla

now? Horrible is what my mother called

my If you've ever, ever heard the definition of a Jewish mother, you multiply it a thousandfold. And that was my mom. She would the bane of my existence up until she died a little bit almost four years ago. But I looked at this guy and I said, my name is Harvard. Where did you get Harvilla from? He said, well, your mother told my mother I'm supposed to talk to

and and what had happened was that my mother ran into this guys mother and grandmother out on the visiting yard and as was her watch, talk to everybody. She said,

what's your son in for? And they said drugs and alcohol. She said, isn't that a coincidence? So is my Harvard. But my Harvill has been clean and sober for a year and a half and maybe he can help your boy, you know, and that's what he was coming to talk to me about. Now, my mom didn't know there's 7000 guys in the in the complex. My mom thinks we're the only two of the problem, you know, but she doesn't know

I got the guy, you know, one of my character defects was that I, I, I don't do it as much anymore, but I love messing with people. Actually, I still do it a little bit, but, but not as much as I used to is that I love messing with people. And so I brought this guy, this guy that was head of the area and brotherhood in the Southern prisons. Not just one, but all of them, you know,

little, some strange ideas. I brought him into the Jewish temple and put a yarmulke on him and said, man, you want to stay sober. It's what you got to do. You know,

He was a good guy. Three years after I got out, I went back in to a banquet to see my best friend in their big gym. Everybody's got a nickname. And Big Jim had to go back in three more times to prove to himself that he was, in fact, an alcoholic and a drug addict and an armed robber. But which

unfortunately, he stayed sober for 15 years and he didn't quite believe all those three things. So he is now

become again an alcoholic, a drug addict and an armed robber. And he's sitting in LA County jail

waiting for his his case to come back. But it but at that point, you know, I went in to see him in this banquet, actually a homeboy and I did named triple B Big Bad Bob. So triple B and I go in, went in to see Big Jim and, and we, they let us walk on the yard, which was really strange. And we walked on the yard and there were like 40 guys that I'd been down with that we're all home. You know, everybody

comes home sooner or later. And, and they're all waiting to say hey to me. You know, nobody says hi. It's all hey, hey hat thanks to call me had money, you know, hey had money.

Stay down with your bad self. Which I never figured out what that meant, you know,

but, and they told me this guy had gotten out one more time. And I told this story about 6-7 years ago. And this woman came up to me that was a private detective and said

that she,

she could find him if I wanted to. And she found him. And I talked him on the phone. He was going to meetings and, and they told him that he couldn't get arrested again. And they were going to three strike him. And he lasted 3 weeks. And then they three strike them. And I got scared because I have a 33 year old speed freak son that's got two strikes and I'm scared to death that he's not going to get this program and get sobriety until he picks up that third strike. And, and it scares the, it scares the life out of me and I have a hard time with it sometimes. You know, my sponsor years ago convinced me.

That if I truly believe in a higher power, that I have to believe that my son has a higher power and I have to let my sons higher power handle it. And, and I can do that about 360 days a year. And I end up with five or six bad days a year going through that. And it's just, it's just what it is. But at least I can get through most of the days of the of the year believing that my son's higher power will take care of him. I got out of that penitentiary full of fear and my fear has always manifested itself into rage. I was a

well well into sobriety because then I'd always been. I've been a rageaholic my entire life because I have been full of fear all my life. And finally,

when I had about 8 1/2 years of sobriety, my, my sponsor at the time said to me said, let me ask you a question. And I said, I said, what's that? And he said, you've always been willing to go to any lengths and stay sober, haven't you? And I said, yes, he said, why aren't you willing to go to any lengths to work on your rage?

And I didn't have an answer for him. And I said, let me get back to you on that. And I hung up because I had to think about it because the rage had been part of my personality for so many years. It was it was a comfort zone for me. And I wasn't sure that I wanted to give that up because it was it's what kept the wall between you and I. And it took me two days. And I finally called them up and I said, OK, I'm willing to do that. And I said, what do I have to do? And we started on a process

that took a very diligent detailed 10 step on a daily basis.

It took a lot of reading of the 7th step in the 12 and 12, which I still do actually today, a couple times a week, I like to read that step. It took taking, taking the heart, the the 12th step and not the part that says having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we carry this message, not that part, but the part that says that we that, that

we practice these principles in all our affairs. And that's the part that I hadn't gotten. And I hadn't gotten about practicing these principles in all our affairs,

or at least in all my affairs. And it took, it took a number of years.

It was about three years, I think three, 3 1/2 years. I was sitting in a meeting one day

and we're having some problems with my son again, and I was in turmoil about it. And I was sitting there and all of a sudden I felt deep down inside of me that no matter what happened, I was going to be OK. And I knew that I was going to be OK. And the rage left, just left

and that was over 11 years ago and I haven't had about a rage in over 11 years. I get angry. Don't get me wrong, I'm not this spiritual being that kind of floats above everybody. You know, I get pissed just like everybody else does, you know, but I, but I don't have those attacks of rage and I don't, I just don't go crazy. The,

it's amazing, you know how freeing that is for me. You know, I thought the 9th step was the freedom step. And it is in a lot of ways. But this is really freed me up and it's, and it's allowed me to do to, to actually change and become a different person. We were at a meeting one night

5-6 years ago when people were coming up to me and telling me stuff that I that I didn't want to hear. Some of the craziest guys in the room were coming up and telling me some of the craziest things I'd ever heard. They were just opening up to me. And I went and I sat down and I was a couple minutes before the meeting started and I turned to Patty and I said, honey, pull that wacko magnet out of my chest will you? And she said, what are you talking about? I said every wacko in the meeting is coming. Is this like Bloom

coming right up to me and telling me these things that I don't want to hear, you know, about themselves? And she said, you don't get it, do you? And I said what? She said, you're approachable

now. All my life I've been confrontational. I haven't been approachable. I did not get sober wanting to become approachable. I didn't want to become a nice guy. When I got here, the guy they said, welcome to A and A and I swear to God, I thought it meant Alcoholics and assholes. And I knew that I qualified, you know, and, and, and, and that's because I was, and I'm not anymore from that standpoint, you know, I have changed. It seems like every couple of years I, I change. I'm a different person today than I was a couple of years ago.

And, and, and, and I don't see the change, but I see how it reflects in other people, how they treat me and how the changes. You know, my first sponsor, I said to him, how come you don't tell me? Like I hear other people say, let us love you until you can love yourself. He said, because that doesn't apply to you. You love yourself enough. He said to you, it's let us love you until you can learn to love somebody else. And you know, that's what's happened to me.

I, I, I, I've, I've learned to love somebody else. And because I've learned to love somebody else, I've learned to love me.

He also told me the single most important thing that I that that I couldn't ever remember. He said if we follow our primary purpose, if we say sober and we help another alcoholic achieve sobriety, that the rest of our life will fall into place. And that's basically what I've done. I've stayed sober. I've helped another alcoholic achieve sobriety in the rest of my life has fallen into place. I'm through. Thanks for listening.

Bye everyone, have a good night.

I love that. OK, any questions? Or I get to sing the 12 traditions. Yes,

I I can't hear you.

She'd like to know if my son is inflicted with the same rage that I had. Is that what You're what you mean? Absolutely not. He is the sweetest, loveliest, most charming young man that you'd ever want to meet. I haven't talked to him in a few years because he usually only calls me when he's in jail. But but he is. He's an absolute sweetheart.

Tall, 62, blonde hair, blue eyes, Roman nose.

It's just gorgeous. I mean, he literally walks into a room and stops her. He's adopted. He's adopted. So he doesn't. He looks nothing like me. Don't look at me. But I mean, he really is. He's gorgeous and he's got a problem

that afflicts the really good looking, and that is he's got a woman taking care of him.

Yeah, but no, he doesn't have the rage.

Nor does my daughter either.

Anybody else? Do I get the same? Oh yes,

all the money. That's

wants to know what I did with all the money that I embezzled. I didn't embezzle it, I stole it.

What did I do with the money?

I No, I didn't pay it back. I tried to pay back.

One of the reasons I went to prison was in lieu of paying it back and

insurance paid it, paid it and there was one client that I tried to pay. It's interesting, interesting story. When I had about six years of sobriety, I finally got what happened was my best friend, who's gay. His lover died of AIDS

and Patty and I spent the last six months of this young man's life with with them,

spending a lot of time with them. And I saw with what courage and dignity he went through the last days of his life into his death. And it gave me the courage to make my final two major amends. And one of them was to one of the guys that I had

a stolen money from that did not get paid by insurance. And I called them on the phone and I and I told them that I needed a mailing address form and that I wanted to send them a check for the, you know, every month for the rest of my life. I would never be able to repay them

and and he told me he didn't want any money from me, he just wanted an apology.

Which actually, as it turned out, wasn't really true because he ended up suing me later on. But but

I I called my sponsor

and said to my sponsor, you're not going to believe this guy doesn't want any money. I don't have to pay any money

and my sponsors reaction was he said excuse me. And I said, what does excuse me mean?

And he said he relieved you of paying him any money. It doesn't mean that he relieved you of paying any money. And he had me starting to write a check to charity. And he told me to make a list of four charities and, and, and start writing a check and, and I was I bitching and moaning about it. And I said I didn't want to do it. And he said, do it for six months and then we'll talk about it. And I did it for six months. And actually I did it for about eight or nine months.

And then I was talking to him one day and he said, oh, by the way, are you still writing out those checks to charity? And he said yes. I said yes.

And he said, how does it feel? I said it feels good. He said, really? And I said, yeah, I smile every time I write the damn check. Now, let's get off the subject. So that was 17 years ago and I'm still doing it, except now I have a list of 12 charities. I've never paid all 12 charities in one month. I've gotten as high as I think 7 when I've had a good month. But I just have charities that I I trade off and I do it. And that's the only way that I know to make the amends that I can.

And I'll tell you about the other amends if somebody asks. But yes. Anybody else? Yes, Sir. Pam, Sir,

how long did it take me to get rid of the rage? It took about 3 1/2 years

and, and it, and I don't know if the rage had left me before. All I know is that at that meeting when I had about 11 1/2 or 12 years of sobriety, when I, I knew that I was going to be okay is when I realized it. It's like when, you know, sometime around eight or nine months of sobriety, I admitted to my innermost self that I was an alcoholic

and, and the obsession to drink was gone.

And I don't know if the obsession to drink left me at that moment or that was the moment that I realized the obsession to drink had left me. But I carried that obsession around for a long time. So I don't know. I never know when anything happens with me. All I know is the moment that I realize that it's happened,

you know, it's like the biggest change in me in the 23 years that I've been sober is that when I got sober, 95% of my actions were inappropriate. And today, 95% of my actions are appropriate.

That's a major change, I think.

Yes, nobody else.

Yes, you then,

Oh, my Second Amendment, my Second Amendment was to the Internal Revenue Service.

I owe them three and a half million dollars.

I'm an accountant, you know, so why file and I?

And I didn't for 11 years. I didn't file. I didn't pay because I had better things to do with the money.

And I filed what was called an offer and compromise.

And in those days it was a little bit easier to do than it is today. But I filed this offering compromise, literally offering them millicent on the dollar, which they turned down. And I appealed it because I know how to do that. And it took about seven or eight months for the appeal. And the night before I was going down downtown to the Appellate Division for this appeals conference, Patty asked me what I was going to say to him. And I said, you know, I have no idea. So I think what I'm going to do

is I'm going to walk in there in a general way. I'm going to tell them what I used to be like, what happened to what I'm like today. And that's what I did.

I went in and I sat down and I, I told, I said, can I take a few minutes and tell you about, about me? And I did. And you looked at me and he said, you know, Harv, if everything checks out, we're going to have a deal. And I knew that everything was going to check out because I did something different. You know, I told the truth. And he called me about 3-4 months later and told me the paperwork was in the mail. It was a five year payoff. And as soon as and as soon as I get it, I can start making my payments. And you know, it was interesting.

I made the payments for five years

and then I waited three months and I called up to Fresno to the, to the offer, to the, to the OIC, the offering compromise division. I know how to get through those, to all those numbers. And I called them up and, and because I wanted to verify that they had everything and it was okay. And so I called the guy, this guy answers the phone and I said I'd like to check on the status of my offer. And he said, what's your name? And I said Harvey Glass. And he said, Oh yes, Mr. Glass, we know you very well.

And I got a little startled at that. And I said, what do you mean?

He said. You are the only one with a five year offer who has made every payment on a timely basis.

You were never late on any of your payments.

And because of that, we're going to file all of the, all of the releases for you.

And they did, they didn't send them to me to file. They filed all the releases. And Mike, you know, I got credit, I'm fine. I don't have those liens on me anymore. And all I did was I believed that there is the, there is the light at the end of the tunnel that it's not always the oncoming train, you know, and I just paid those bills. They were due on the on the 10th of every month. And I mailed them out on the 25th of every month. I just made sure they went out.

It's just what I did,

yes. So it's

yeah.

How are the A meetings in the prison

gruesome?

We had two AA meetings and an NA meeting in there when I first got in. Oh, well, that that

well, yeah, I'll talk about those. I don't want to talk about the other ones because that was a little weird, but

the first one I was in was in this little in this reception area and it reminded me of the, of Cuckoo's Nest, you know, but,

but there was three meetings in there. We had our own clubhouse. Actually, we had an, a clubhouse too, which they, they closed down when they found out that the president of the club was, was selling heroin out the back door. So they had to close it. But and then they just decided one day to, to, to close one of the a a meetings.

And I was on the mat committee, the men's advisory committee. And I asked the warden about it and he said, oh, self help groups don't work.

And I said, OK, because there's no arguing with these guys. They know what what works and what doesn't work. And, and so I just said, OK, so they, so they, they cancelled the meeting. And we used to get

from AAA, we used to get Orange County H and I

that came in to that, to that prison. It was in Chino. It was the, the main yard in Chino. And I got to tell you, I, I'm sure Orange County H and I is improved. But back in 85 and 86, it was terrible. It was just terrible. We had guys coming in, pointing their fingers and telling us how to stay sober. This is what you have to do to stay sober. And everybody tried to be bad. And I mean, it was just one guy I thought was going to, was going to get killed in there. The NA meetings, it was real interesting. The NA meetings were brought

by this guy. Oh, somebody's phone is ringing? How could that be? Everybody turn their phone off when the meeting started.

The, the NA meetings were brought in by this guy who was a very gentle soul and he would bring people in the that would just tell their stories. And it was really interesting. It was, it was a good mix and, and, and at least we had a couple of couple of meetings and, and, and I had a connection. I also used to get the lot of letters from people

and people were coming in to visit me. I will tell you there was one guy who was the liaison between the prison and and the panels who used to be in prison who then later got out and went to work for the prison. That was a magical man, just a magical man. He became my sponsor while I was in there and he kept me well grounded in a well grounded and he's the man I did a real a thorough inventory with and told him every secret that I knew I could never tell another human being.

He's a great guy.

So yeah, they were OK and they were lousy, yes.

Are we having make a relationship with Alcoholics are easy?

Wants to know how I make another a relationship with another alcoholic look so easy.

We go home. I let her beat on me.

You know,

I don't know. Patty and I have been together for 27 years, drunk and sober.