The Heart of the Ozarks convention in Springfield, MO

I think all the rest of the committees off having dinner without me, they ditch me.

So why don't we do this? What I like the way I'd like to start this. I call this kitchen table A A, and it's about sponsorship

primarily,

and everyone of us that came into Alcoholics Anonymous

or Al Anon,

somebody was kind to us.

Somebody got us a cup of coffee,

told us what was going on, saved us a chair, remembered our name. The second time we came back,

maybe that person or people, one of them ended up being our sponsor. That took us through the steps.

So when we start this off with a moment of silence and then the Serenity prayer, let's try and picture in our mind

who it was that greeted us and was kind to us and just took a few minutes.

Usually we don't remember what they say, but we sure remember how they felt to us. Let's try and get in touch with that, just for a moment.

God

grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

One of the guys I remember about that was a man by the name of Larry Larkin. Great big guy, used to be a local bartender in the beach area, so a lot of people knew him and he knew everybody. And one night I stood out in the parking lot with this man. I didn't know him at all,

and he talked to me for 45 minutes. We just stood out there and talked. And I didn't go home right away after the meeting like I'd been doing. He kind of cornered me and talked to me. And I always thought I went home that night really feeling good, like he really had an interest in me. Later I found that Larry would talk to anybody. I just happened to be the one he captured, you know? But God knows how many lives that man saved because he was like that.

A little history. I mean, you've, you've had some history if you

watch Wally and listen to Mel, which was just excellent. And I, I, I really enjoy Wally's stuff and, and, and it was, it's been really interesting meeting Mel and talking about that history and where we came from.

Sponsorship, as you'll hear many people say, is not mentioned in the big book. That's not true.

Wally made the caveat that it's not in the 1st 164 pages. That's true, but if you read the stories, it's all over it.

The Oxford Group group used the term sponsorship freely. It's where the term came from.

It's how they operated. Henrietta Sieberling was Ann Smith's sponsor

and when Abby Thatcher came

from the Oxford Group to look for Bill Wilson, he did that at the guidance of his sponsor, Roland Hazard,

and he went and found the worst drunk he knew, which was Bill Wilson.

One of the early my my sponsor is a historian and an archivist and he talks about the time that when Wilson went back looking for Ebby and he was drunk, the guy that was standing by the door at Calvary Chapel, Calvary Mission wouldn't let him in because he was so drunk. Now you have to keep in mind that what he was trying to get into was a room where they were preaching to a bunch of drunken St. people. So Wilson must have been roar and drunk if they wouldn't let him in because there was already a room full of them in there.

So on a scale of one to 10, he must have been pretty polluted. And Abby saw him by the door and he said to this man Shep, that was by the door, It's OK, I will sponsor him in.

And that term sponsorship was used as you had somebody that would vouch for you. And you got to remember in those days, people weren't showing up to a A meetings. Number one, there weren't any. And later when they were some meetings, nobody knew where they were. People weren't, you know, they weren't dropping them off to go to the a A meeting. Guys, wives weren't saying you need to go to a meeting. You know, they didn't know anything about it. So what these guys would do is they would go to the hospitals

and they would recruit people.

They go from bed to bed and say, Are you ready to quit drinking? And if they'd say no, they'd move on to the next bed.

And that guy would then bring that person when he got out of the hospital to the AAA meeting and became his sponsor, would vouch for him and say, this guy's cool, he wants to stop drinking, Let's let's talk to him. So

Fast forward a little bit. In 1939, they came out with a big book. Now, the motivation for the big book, if you know any of the history at all, is Wilson needed to raise money. All of them did. As they were all sitting around talking, they go, what are we going to do with this thing? We're working our butts off here. If this thing's going to grow, we're going to have to come up with some capital. Well, the first idea is, well, let's publish a book. Let's print a book. And if they know people know the book is coming out and it's going to hit the country by storm,

we can sell stock certificates to raise money based upon the publishing of the book. So they printed some worthless stock certificates and sold them for 25 bucks apiece, which was a lot of money in 1939, as Wally pointed out. I mean, the cost of the book would be like 100 bucks today. They were charging $5 for that book in 1939, which was a lot of money. It's not the $5.00 of today. You know that sometimes you put that in the basket.

This doesn't have as much value as it did.

So they were looking for a lot of money and this book was the

source of that. So when they passed the book around between the people in Akron and and New York, they edited it and they took out, if you've ever heard one of the early lithographs of Chapter 5 where it talks about rules and directions and you will and it doesn't say we, they softened it. They softened it from the reality that they knew

to try to be attractive, to bring people in,

and they changed some of it. They softened it up, fortunately,

so they published the book. The book goes out, they get some response. They're basically disappointed they had to pay all the people their money back for the phony stock, stock certificates. And

and then Bob Smith wrote a document, probably had a little bit of help, but I think it's mostly him called the Akron manual. And the Akron manual, depending upon who you talk to or how you look it up, was either printed in 1940 or 1941. This, they made this document up after the big book was written,

after the the language of recovery

had been established, which they didn't really know for sure. But that book we quote that thing chapter and verse, page number, paragraph. It's like it's a Bible and you got to keep in mind it's a pointer at best. And it was a sales tool. And this Akron manual, I think, more describes what they were actually doing.

I'm not promoting this as the way that it should be

because it really kind of cracks me up. I think, as Wally says, you need to know where you're coming from, where you came from. This is where we came from. This is what these guys knew. You got to remember around this time they weren't allowing women in. A

doctor, Bob came home one day and found some guy and some girl having sex on his examination table at the home.

Their immediate response to that was that's it. No more women

see what they do.

A bit chauvinistic, you know.

Why did I bring that up?

Anyway, I'm going to read you a few excerpts from the Akron Manual. Once again, I'm not promoting This is how it should be, but this gives you an idea where these guys were and how they felt about sponsorship and about what the core and the crux of the program was. So I'll just read you a few excerpts.

This is from page two. Explain that we are not in the business of sobering up drunks merely to have them go on another Bender. Explain that our aim is total and permanent sobriety.

Not once does it mention in this document one day at a time. Not once. They don't even allude to it.

Definition of an Alcoholic Anonymous

An Alcoholic Anonymous is an alcoholic who, through application of an adherence to the rules laid down by the organization, has completely foresworn the use of any and all alcoholic beverages. The moment he wittingly drinks so much as a drop of beer, wine, spirits, or any other alcoholic drink, he automatically loses all status as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous.

AAA is not interested in sobering up drunks who are not sincere in their desire to remain completely sober for all time.

You're out of here.

No slippers. No slippers allowed.

To the newcomer, it is your life. It is your choice. If you are not completely convinced to your own satisfaction that you are an alcoholic, that your life has become unmanageable. If you are not ready to part with alcohol forever, it would be better for all concerned if you discontinue reading this and give up the idea of becoming a member of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Loser.

A word to the sponsor.

You must fulfill all pledges you make to him, either tangible or intangible. If you cannot fulfill a promise, do not make it.

You have in your hands the most valuable property in the world, the future of a fellow man. Treat his life as carefully as you would your own. You are literally responsible for his life.

That's how serious these guys were.

Alcoholics Anonymous is 100% effective for those who faithfully follow the rules.

It is those who try to cut corners who find themselves back in their old drunken state rules.

Before long you will have a new thrill, the thrill of helping someone else. There is no greater satisfaction in the world than watching the progress of a new Alcoholic Anonymous. No whiskey in the world can give you this thrill. Above all, remember this. Keep the rules in mind. As long as you follow them, you are on firm ground but the least deviation and you are vulnerable

as a new member. Remember that you are one of the most important cogs in the machinery of a A. Without the work of the new member A, A would not have grown as it has.

You will bring into this work a fresh enthusiasm, the zeal of a crusader. You will want everyone to share with you the blessings of this new life. You will be tireless in your efforts to help others, and it is a splendid enthusiasm. Cherish it as long as you can,

for you are ready to sponsor some poor alcoholic who is desperately in need of help, both human and divine. So God bless you and keep you.

Here's one of my favorite parts of this. This is just killer. I could just imagine these guys sitting around coming up with this.

You aren't very important in this world.

If you lose your job, someone better will replace you.

If you die, your wife will mourn briefly

and then remarry.

Your children will grow up and you will be but a memory.

In the last analysis, you are the only one who benefits by your sobriety. Seek to cultivate humility. Remember that cockiness leads to a speedy fall.

They had issues

that were. Must have been a couple of arrogant people around there. Then. Medical men will tell you that Alcoholics are all alike in at least one respect. They are emotionally immature.

In other words, Alcoholics have not learned to think like adults.

That's a little rough.

At meetings, don't criticize the leader.

They were already. People were bitching about the leader bitching about the meetings already. I love that

he has his own problems and is doing the best to solve them. Help him along by standing up and saying a few words. He will appreciate your kindness and thoughtfulness.

Don't criticize the methods of others. Strangely enough, you may change your own ideas as you become older and sobriety. Remember, there are a dozen roads from New York to Chicago, but they all land in Chicago.

How soon you will be cured of a desire to drink is another matter that depends entirely upon how quickly you can succeed in changing your fundamental outlook on life. For as your outlook changes for the better, desire will become less pronounced until it disappears almost entirely. It may be weeks or it may be months. Your sincerity and your capacity for working with others on the A A program will determine the length of time.

Alcoholics Anonymous is based on a set of laws known as the 12 Steps

laws.

Years of experience Have years of experience. Years of experience

have definitely proved that those who live up to these rules remain sober, those who gloss over or or ignore any one rule, or in constant danger of returning to a life of drunkenness. Thousands of words could be written on each rule. Lack of space prevents, so they are merely listed here. It is suggested that they be explained by the sponsor. If he cannot explain them, he should provide someone who can.

That's the Akron manual.

I've got a sign up sheet here if you want to put your. I'm going to be reading some other documents and stuff. If you'd like to get copies of this, I'd be happy to e-mail it to you. You can put your name, e-mail address, phone number, and city and state and I'd be happy to do that. I've got some cards here you can get and for the tape if you play this later. My e-mail address is Bill C at Kitchen Table

aa.com and my phone number is 310-792-8013

so you can sign up on the list. And I also send out like daily quotes and from different sources, not all big book stuff. And no chain emails, no dirty jokes unless you specifically request that.

So that kind of sets the stage. What these guys were doing is they were sponsoring each other.

There's this thing that you hear that we had a 75% success rate

and now it's less than 5% or whoever, whatever doomsayer that you listen to, that percentage changes and they're coming.

They're coming. It's the mothership.

So

not recently in 2008, a bunch of a A guys got together and they put together this Alcoholics Anonymous recovery outcome rates. Contemporary myth and misinterpretation.

When you look back in the past and you try to come up with what the percentage is, usually this number, 75%, comes from the forward to the second edition in the big book.

Wilson rarely used that.

Probably it was closer to 30 or 40%. When they said the 1st 100 guys that helped write the book, there were only 77. They lied to us up front. Most of the people that wrote the stories in the 1st edition of the Big Book, a good percentage of them drank again. Several committed suicide. They had the same problem we had

and they screened them

before they came to the meetings, they screened them.

We don't do that, nor do we have the luxury of doing that, nor do I think it would be a good idea if we did that. Times have changed.

The operative term in that phrase, when you hear that is of those who really tried, what do they mean by really tried?

When they talk about the 50% that stayed sober and the 25% that got sober and stayed sober after a slip or two of those who really tried,

what are they talking about?

Well, there's some CDs over there. There's that I noticed the first time I've ever seen them by of Tom Powers. Tom Powers was the guy recently passed away. It was quite old and he helped Bill put together the 12:00 and 12:00. He split off from a A because he felt that Bill

had issues that Tom got a resentment and he ran off and he started in upstate New York, an organization that's still around today called All Addictions Anonymous.

And his son Tom Powers Junior, some years later in the 60s, got sober and he wrote a thing of really interesting document in the 70s called Gresham's Law and Alcoholics Anonymous. Gresham's Law is an alcohol is a economic term and it says that bad money will chase out good money in the market if they're valued the same,

and I won't go into detail about that. If you can read this and see, I'll send it to you.

But in this he talks about, he equates this to Alcoholics Anonymous and he's talking about what he sees as a bad entity, a bad movement within a A that is chasing out the good. That's his analysis and he describes it. And in it he describes the three levels of involvement in a A. He kind of equates it. In one document I saw he equates it to like a medium.

Weak and strong cup of coffee kind of a thing. And I'm just going to read you quickly the kind of paraphrase it a little bit. His description of strong medium and weak involvement or effort.

Strong

strong AA was the original undiluted dosage of spiritual principles. Strong as took all 12 steps and kept on taking them. They did not stop with the admission of powerless and over alcohol, but went right on right away to turn their wills and lives over to the God's care. They began to practice rigorous honesty and all their affairs and short order. They proceeded to take a moral inventory, admit all their wrongs to at least one other person, take positive and forceful action in making such restitution as was possible for those wrongs, continue

inventory admitting their faults and making restitution on a regular basis, Pray and meditate every day, go to two or more A a meetings weekly, and actively work the 12 step carrying the A A message to others in trouble.

Medium.

All of us have done medium.

The medium A A started off with a bang pretty much like the strong A As, except they hedged or procrastinated a bit on parts of the program they feared or did not like. Maybe the God steps, maybe the inventory steps, depending on their peculiar particular nervousness or dislikes. Take what you can use and leave the rest. But after they had stayed sober for a while, the medium A As eased up and settled into a practice of the program that went something like this an A A meeting a week,

occasional 12 step work, leaving more and more of that to the newer fellows as time went on.

Some work with the steps, but not like before. Less and less inventory as they became more and more respectable. Some prayer and meditation still, but not on a daily basis anymore. Not enough time due to the encroachment of business engagement, social activities, and other baggage that went along with the return to a normal life in the work a day, world

week,

the week it is, or a varied lot.

The thing common to all of them was that they left big chunks of the program totally and permanently out of their reckoning right from the outset. Sometimes the God steps, sometimes the inventory steps, often both. Week A As tended to talk in terms like all you need to do is stay sober is go to meetings and stay away from the first drink. Most of the week A As who were successful in staying sober were pretty faithful meeting goers. Since they were doing so little with the principles, their sobriety and their survival depended more exclusively than did those of the strong and medium

on constant exposure to the people of AAA.

That's Gresham's law. Now

here's what I see in a A along those lines. There's a whole group or class of people and Alcoholics Anonymous that have come to believe

that doing a A is going to meetings.

That's a A. Doing a A is go to lots of meetings. Don't drink in between.

And what you see when you go to a meetings where people are sharing about how their day went

constantly and it's that kind of a group therapy sort of thing that many of us complain about or we see that as this encroaching death knell of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Those people that are doing that don't have sponsors

or maybe they have a sponsor that they're not talking to, that they're not working the steps with, or maybe their sponsors sitting next to them in the meeting and that's what their sponsor is doing them is bringing them to meetings. And this is what we do here. This is what we do.

If they had a sponsor to share about these issues in their life with,

or they had a group of friends even that they could do that with, they wouldn't do it in the meetings. There'd be no need to do it in the meetings.

If there's a strong ethic of sponsorship in an A, a community, the meetings will reflect that ethic.

And the people that are singing the death knell of a A. Usually the approach is we need to change the meetings. There needs to be rules. People shouldn't say this. They should say that. There shouldn't be so many discussion meetings. There should be more book studies. You know, in the past they didn't have discussion meetings like this. You know, there, this is killing people. People are dying because they're not getting the message.

I disagree with that. I don't think we can control the meetings. Our traditions tell us that every meeting is autonomous,

and who am I to say what somebody needs as a doorway into Alcoholics Anonymous? And I know for a fact that the message isn't in the meetings. Anyway,

the message comes from me,

the message comes from the sponsor, the message comes from the person that you ask to help you through the process. It's not in the meetings. The fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous is something to be survived.

This is the character defect center of the known universe.

Well, I mean, you'll hit on my wife, you'll borrow money from me, and you won't pay me back. I'll give you a job, you'll do a crappy job, and somehow it'll be my fault. That's my personal favorite. Then you won't show up to my birthday party. After all I've done for you. No,

and when the meetings are comprised of the Fellowship.

Now my Home group, the Hermosa Beach been stag. The epicenter of sobriety

is different, of course,

as I'm sure your Home group is as well.

But there's this whole focus on what the meetings should look like, what we should say there and what we should do. And I just disagree with it. I, I think the meetings is where we find each other. That's where we go to. We find each other there. And if somebody's really looking for help, you know, it's our job to to seek that person out.

My wife took her little nephew that got court ordered to go to a a meetings. He's really happy about that and she took him to 4:00 in the afternoon meeting. In our local Alano club they have 5 meetings a week. They call themselves the Happy Retreads,

which will give you some indication of the content

in this meeting. And she had never been to one of these. I was on the board at the Illinois Club, so I'd had to suffer through a few. And she went there and she came back and her mouth and she goes, that was appalling. I've never seen anything like that in my life. It was horrible. It was just horrible. And I said, I just laughed. I said, what did you do? She goes, I raised my hand and shared,

you know, I said, what did you do to those poor people?

And she just talked about recovery. Talk about recovery. And

but I don't know what your doorway should be, you know, or what it's going to be, you know? I mean, we've joked for years about noon meetings, you know, and noon meetings are for people that don't have jobs.

Night meetings are real AAA meetings, you know, daytime meetings. I don't know what those morning meetings are. Very weird. What are people doing going to a first thing in the morning and they hold hands and sing? I was in general service and somebody came into the GSR meeting a District 1 Area 9, and we're complaining. She says in the morning meetings at the Alano Club, they're singing. You have to come stop them from singing.

And I just, you just roar, you know? I mean, there's got to be rules and laws. Everybody wants to make a rule or a law. You know,

one of the beauties of Alcoholics Anonymous is, is it's just anarchy.

You know, it always was. You can see it in the Akron manual. They're bitching about, you know, don't blame the me. Don't talk about other people. There's already starting,

I believe, what the heart and soul of Alcoholics Anonymous is. The sponsorship,

I believe very strongly on a couple of different levels. Why that is. I believe it's the mechanism that the manager uses to cause us to confront our defects of character,

to hone us, to give us the experiences it takes for us to deepen emotionally.

That without this process,

we will never confront those things. It it won't come up in any other way.

And we make excuses for it and say, well, I do other things besides that. There is nothing else you can do that will take the place of that. That's all these men did in the 30s and 40s and 50s. When my dad got sober in 1954, that's what he did. That's what they had him doing. He was going out on 12 step calls. He was bringing guy. I have many memories of him bringing some stranger into the house and bringing him

living room and I'd have to leave the living room while they pounded on the book and pointed their finger at him and told him the same lame ass stuff we tell him today. Not much has changed. You know, I don't believe the program of Alcoholics Anonymous has changed much. Not the program. I'm talking about the program. The 12 steps. There they are.

A lot of other stuff has come into a, some of it's, I think, very positive. We've learned a lot over the years about alcoholism. We've learned a lot.

You know, people talk about going back to what it was like. Tom Ivester that's been quoted here a couple of times this weekend told me he says there were no good old times. These are the good old times, he says. Everybody talks about those glory days. He says. I don't ever want to have somebody having a seizure in my car next to me ever again. He says. It scared the hell out of me. It was horrible. I thought the man was going to die and I didn't know what to do,

he says. We don't want him having seizures in the A A meetings anymore.

We talk about it like it's some kind of nostalgia, like it's really fun, like it's cute or something, he says. It's not cute. I remember that. It was awful. It was frightening. We didn't know what to do.

You know, Bill Wilson wanted hospitals across the country. Member, he went to Rockefeller, wanted to get money, wanted to build hospitals across the country.

We have that now. Recovery is available at all levels of society. The reason the kids are coming in is the parents today have an option when they see their kid child dying from methamphetamine usage. They can grab them, have them shipped off to Utah where they hang them upside down and from a tree and beat them with Birch twigs for six months or so to give them the outdoor experience and do a little behavior modification. Then all you people ship them out to California to these God damn

places that send them to our meetings.

The kids are coming in because recovery is part of our lexicon today. It's not a bad thing. This is a good thing. This is what Wilson wanted. My father and and Chuck Chamberlain and a bunch of other guys in the 60s were working on a project that Bill called the Big 12 Step, and the whole idea was to get back to Washington, DC somehow and get the government to recognize alcoholism as a disease, along with the American Medical Association.

So they would quit incarcerating us and put them in to put us into recovery, to get the insurance industry to come on board and start funding recovery facilities rather than putting us out on the street

or in prison.

And when that happened, when the cover recovery industry raised up and began doing that,

it set off an adversarial relationship between Alcoholics Anonymous and the professional community. We did not handle it well. We still bitch about them to this day. We call them spin Dries and they dump addicts on our A A meetings. We snivel and whine and cry about it constantly. And when I came in, in the mid 80s, people would sit in the meetings and read newspaper articles

about the atrocity of these recovery places and all the money they're making and all the Alcoholics were going there getting jobs,

you know, and everybody was complaining about it. And I came through a recovery place and I came walking in there and I felt like you didn't want me.

But I'm big enough and arrogant enough and loud enough that I just took it as a challenge, you know?

And now in my Home group, when these kids are coming in, the last five or six or seven years that it's been happening, most of the old guys at my meeting that I got sober with have left because they say we're not a daycare center. What are all these kids doing here? I mean, it's appalling.

It's appalling the attitude.

Isn't this what we want? Wouldn't we rather than come in and get sober at 161718 rather than spend another 10 or 15 years out there killing themselves and someone else? It's not about you feeling comfortable in the God damn meeting, it's about recovery and the meetings aren't a A.

It's just my opinion, but it's a really good one.

My sponsor,

when I asked him for help,

he told me to come to his house Thursday at 5:00 and read the doctor's opinion and make notes in the margin

of what I agreed with and what I didn't agree with. And I did that

and then he had me sit there and read it to him. And each week when I went there, we had an hour to an hour and a half.

He was working, he was married, his wife had just gotten sober and and we read the book together all the way to the end, not the stories, but to the end of the 164. And he worked the steps with me. He and you know, I mean, he sent me home to do by inventory and I suffered whined about it for a while like Wally talks about, you know, it only takes 10 minutes. Well, we've evolved, I think a little bit beyond the 10 minute four step inventory, I would hope. And

you know, and I did my inventory and I did my fifth step and I felt like a member of a, A after that. I had a distinct impression, like I'd really join this thing. And I went about the process of making amends. And before I was a year sober, I was sponsored my first guy

at his direction. Another thing he told me, he says you can't be a member of Alcoholics Anonymous if your name is not on the 12 step list down at the central office.

I thought that's where they handed out the ID badges. So I ran right down there and signed up. You know, I didn't wait for him to send me a form. I was scared to death at A, you know, and I was motivated by self. I've always been motivated by self. I wanted to look good. I figured if I was going to be an AAI, might as well be the biggest, baddest member of a A there is.

I'm trying to make a name for myself in an anonymous organization. You know,

I'm not sure exactly what that is, but I don't think it's really healthy. And, but it's part of the growing up process, isn't it? I mean, if we wait around for good motivation, we'll wait forever, you know? I mean, you just got to get in there and get your hands dirty and, and the motivation will change as the behavior changes.

So when I started sponsoring guys, I did the same thing he did with me. And to this day, it's still pretty much the same format. But I've learned a lot since then. In 24 years, I've learned a lot.

I think I'm a better sponsor. I don't know if my success rate is any better, but I can tell you my personal success rate is probably better than 75 or 80%. Is that of everybody that asked me to sponsor them? No, it's of those who really try.

The ones that don't disappear at the four step. The ones that don't cop an attitude

with me, you know, I've had to tell guys I go, you don't want what I have. I don't fire guys, but I tell them I finally I'll look at me. You don't want what I have. Why? What do you say that? Because you don't do what I do,

you know? You don't do what I do. Why? What are we doing here? What do you call this? You keep calling me your sponsor. Really. You know, What are you doing? Are you working the same? You know? And the answer is, of course, no. But they can walk around and go. Bill sees my sponsor, you know.

What does that mean?

J Stennett's my sponsor, you know. But if I never call him, what good is he? If I'm not working steps with him, what good is he? If I don't bring my stuff to him, what good is he? I don't have a sponsor if I'm not actually using it, if I don't have a relationship with him.

So over the years my approach to people has changed. And here's one significant one

One of the things you hear at A is you'll hear people from the podium say in different ways.

They'll say I'm a sick puppy and I hope I never get well,

that I'm not recovered, I'm recovering and that will never stop.

You know, I've got the isms, not alcohol anymore, but I've got the ISM. I've got alcoholic thinking. I heard one guy one time, he used to have a local guy that was 30-40 years sober and he'd say I'm living proof that you can stay angry and still be sober. I go, God, now there's something to shoot for. You know, I want what he's got

his a a nickname was Rotten Ron. You know, I mean, jeez.

So we have a tendency to tell people in many different ways that you're broken, you're broken, you're an alcoholic, you're broken, and we're going to heal you here. I don't do that anymore. I look them right in the eye and tell them they are. You are not broken. You're just fine. You couldn't have come here any other way than the way you are. This is your path and you're on the path and you're with us now. You're going to be OK, man. And you're OK right now.

Right here, right now. There's nothing wrong.

And I believe that to the bottom of my heart. You know, all of us get here with a lot of regret and a lot of remorse and some guilt and some shame, and some of us more than others.

But that was our path. Our greatest weakness becomes our greatest strength. That story is like gold.

People will attach themselves to us because of that story. And especially if we heal from it. If we recover from it. I'm not a sick puppy anymore. I'm not a childish, immature little boy anymore. I'm not. I have self esteem. I feel pretty good about what I see. I have no secrets from anybody, which is kind of embarrassing sometimes, you know? But I have no more secrets. Everybody knows everything,

you know? I mean, what do I have to protect? You can't take anything from me that I wouldn't give you. You know, you can't hurt me. You can't injure me. And every time my heart breaks, it breaks open. I've recovered an Alcoholics Anonymous and I know that there's more to come. I look at guys ahead of me and I see that glint in their eyes. I see men that are 7075, eighty years old that have a very childlike demeanor about them and that glint in their eye, you know, and they're still sponsoring

guys and they're sponsoring kids and they're having a great life, you know, along with liver problems and kidneys and

all that crap that comes with age, you know, but life is still good. That's the gift that we have here in a A and I try to carry that in my when I'm working with guys, but I do the same thing, you know, I read the book with them. I sit and I read the book. We read Bill's story again and again and again, you know, over and over and over. And I put together little groups and I use a handbook that we go through and we all go through the steps together. Takes about six months.

You know, try to mix up the curriculum a little bit to keep it interesting,

to keep their interest and to keep my interest as well,

you know, And if you invite me into your life, I'll come and I will invite you into my life. And you have to make the choice whether you really want to come, if you really want this.

One of the rules that you kind of hear that is debated is men work with men and women work with women.

I was doing this kind of a workshop thing and I brought this up because I feel very strongly about that.

I think it's important that men work with men and women work with women. And I know that there's a lot of guys that sponsor women.

And I heard this one guy say, he says, look, I work. I live in a rural area where there aren't many men and women in a A and when women come in and they need help, I can't tell them no. And my wife knows about it. I make sure I'm not alone with him. You know, he had his rules that he lived by. And I stood there and I could not argue with that guy. There was no argument if it was like that. But I live in Los Angeles,

and you'll hear this thing

that there aren't women that work the steps that I can't find any women that work the steps. Will I have a list, You know, I have a list. And I used to turn them down flatly with some cute little aside, and I don't do that anymore. I tell them, I said, you can call me anytime you want. I'm there for you. I'd be happy to talk to you, you know, but I'm not going to help you hide from your own kind,

because I believe that's what happens. You know, women will manipulate us if they can. Men will manipulate women if they can. But women are much slicker at it,

you know, and they've been getting along forever doing this. And we are just dead meat. We aren't sophisticated enough to pick up on it. I used to think they all wanted to sleep with me.

Why do you laugh?

Then I real Hornet, and then I realized I was a father figure, and then I realized I'm a grandfather figure. Evidently they think I'm safe,

which is kind of sad when you think about it, you know? I don't like being perceived as safe, you know,

But I'm not going to help you hide from your own kind.

Men do the same thing, you know? Men do the same thing.