Step 8 at a Men's OA Tool Time Retreat in Oceanside, CA

Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.

So on page 76 it tells us we have a list of all persons we had harmed and to whom we are willing to make amends. We've made it. When I took our inventory, those four lists, we suggested ourselves to a drastic self appraisal. Now we go out to our fellows and repair the damage done in the past. We attempt to sweep away the debris which is accumulated out of our efforts to live on self well and run the show ourselves.

If we haven't the will to do this, we ask until it comes.

Remember, it was agreed at the beginning we would go to any lengths for victory over alcohol

and then on just a reminder on step 770 on page 77, it says our real purpose is to fit ourselves of to be of maximum service to God and the people about us. So that's the reason why we're doing all these steps is to fit ourselves to be a maximum service to everyone else. Now we, we're asking God to help us become willing to make amends to them all. So every single person on that list there, we, we have to be willing to make amends to them. So what my, my sponsor, what the OAPP program suggests is that you

take a page and make 4 columns now later maybe, and never and, and put every single name that's on your list into one of those four columns. And that's basically judging how willing are you right now. Now, the reason that you might put somebody into later, for example, is that you really think you should do this, this this amends in a face to face and you're not going to see them. You have to, you know, when you go back and visit your family,

you, you see them then, so you'd be willing to do it then when, when, when you actually are face to face of them. So that would be a reason to put it into the later category

if it's not appropriate to do it now over the telephone. I mean, if you can do it over the telephone, go ahead and do it that way. If you think it's better to do it face to face, you can put that in a later category. Maybe might be a case where you're not sure if doing the amends to them is going to harm somebody else. Remember that we're not going to make amends to someone if it'll harm the other person that we're making amends to or someone else. So you might put them in maybe if you're not sure if it's going to make them harm to other people.

And then the never might be, for example, people who are dead.

So you might put them in the never category or, but you can still, you actually can't still make amends. And I did make some amends to people that were dead. And when I did my my most recent ninth step.

But the other, the other reason for never is that if you're just not willing, you know, that person was such an asshole, I'm not gonna make amends to them. There's, you know, I'm not gonna give them another chance to humiliate me and forget it. I'm just not gonna do it. You can't make me. And they're at that, that, you know, if you're putting your foot down, you put them in the never category there. But then after you've got all those names and all four of those categories, then you go talk to your sponsor and you and your sponsor. Look at that. Look at your reasons for putting them in that column. Are those justified reasons? Do they make

or should you be a little more willing to put that never over into the maybe list or maybe over into the later list or maybe over into the now list? You know, there's a good suggestion might actually be take the ones that you don't, the hardest ones, the ones that you most don't want to do and do them first. That'll make all the other ones look so much easier. So otherwise, if you will start with the easy ones and work your way up to to the hard ones, you know, Oh my gosh, you know, it's going to get harder and harder and harder. So take the hard one and do it first and then do the second hardest and you know, go down the list the other way.

But that's the idea is that is to is to work with your sponsor to see if you can make some movement in here. Now, if you're still putting your foot down and saying no, I'm never going to make amends to them. That's where you have to ask God for help. Because again, I'm as powerless over my, my lack of willingness as I am over my compulsive overeating and all my other character defects and my selfish and self centeredness. So that's where you would have to ask God for help to, to move things over into the into the more willing categories there. Can I ask you a question here? Sure,

so you're talking you're not talking about the resentments, you're talking about the harms. No, you actually make a resentment put every single name on all four of the list. You got resentments, fears, harms and and sex conduct. Take all four of those lists. Every name that's in the column one of all four of those lists goes into your 8th, 8th step amends list. So we make amends to people who hurt us. Yes, because there's, and, and that we'll get into that more of a discussion about that in step 9. But because there's always

some way that we've heard them, maybe maybe we only hurt them in retaliation for what they did to us. We're making amends for the retaliation part of what what they did to us, not for what they did to us. We're not making amends to them for what they did to us, for our part in it. Yeah. The way the way I talk about it is that if somebody else did 90% of what went on between me and him and I only did 10%, it's that 10% that I make amends with

with him. I go to him and I make amends for that 10%. I don't even discuss the 90% that he did when I'm making that amendment.

So I make the events for my 10%. And sometimes the guy will say, yeah, you're a real jerk and an asshole and I never want to see you again. And let it be. You've done you've cleaned up your side of the street in that case. And and he he's not willing to do anything different than what he did before. And that's that. Other times when you make your amends, it might prompt and say, oh, thank you. And you know, I'm sorry for what I did. Maybe it's just going to be general like that. They're not going to get into the specifics. Or maybe they they'll be willing to admit, yeah, I was really a jerk when I

yelled at you or whatever they did, you know, or whatever. Whatever it is, you know, it it can really heal relationships. That's the great thing about the 9th step is that it can really heal relationships that were fracture non existent. But you put every name on the list. And if there really is no amends that you need to make, you know, I even though he was, I'm resentful at him, but I never did anything about it. I was just suffering internally. I mean, look closely, because often there's an overt thing that we do when we're suffering like that, when somebody is hurt us terribly.

You know, maybe we said bad things about him to other people. Yeah, we gossiped about him and told everybody what a jerky was. And we need to go to him and say, listen, I'm sorry that I was telling people that you're a jerk

because that's what you did. That was the harm that you did them. He may not even know the old people he was a jerk. But if you if you told people he was a jerk, that's the harm that you did. And that's what he meant you need to make for. So you put every name on one of those four columns and maybe they're really and truly is no amends that need to be made. Then they can stay in the never category. And you and your sponsor and God all agree that they stay in the never category and you never have to do it. But you know,

Step 8 is asking you to be willing to move people more and more to the left of that list, more and more to the now or later

or maybe and not the never.

Any other questions?

My, my OAP sponsor suggested that and I'm sure her sponsor suggested that to her. It's, it's so it's coming down through the OAP tradition and it makes sense. I mean, there are those four columns are not mentioned in the big book. So that's not a big book part here. But you know, what it's asking you here is to made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. So, you know, when you're starting out, you may not be willing to recommend to them. And so the, the first step is to see where are you at on this willingness list here from, you know, you got all the names

from your four lists. So where are you on how willingly you are to make amends to them? So first see where you're at right now and then see if you're willing to make amends, see if you're willing to move them over into the, into the ones that you're actually going to make amends to. So it's exclusive to your 8th step.

This is an eighth step list. No, it's not on that one. This is, I mean, they actually, she actually gave me a sheet of paper that had those four columns. But you know, you can make it up yourself. I could send you that PDF if you want. I'll include that PDF.

Oh, you know, I noticed something here that I didn't read that was part of my eighth step here. So after I made this list of names and I, I moved people around and them, the next thing my sponsor asked me to do was to write a letter to every single one of the names, even the ones I'm never going to do. Just write the letter just so I can get clear in my mind exactly what amends I would make if I were to make those amends. So I write a letter to every single name on that list

and I'll share in step 9. For example, for my parents who had died at that point,

I sent that letter to the cemetery where they were buried. And I made sure that there was no identification of what their name was or what my name was in the letter in the return address or anything. So there was no connection to me. So some symmetry care taker has got to get this strange letter at the cemetery address and he's going to read it and say, oh, well, what the hell is this? I don't throw it away. But you know, that was my way of, of making that amends to my parents

in, in that letter that I sent to them. So that letter is useful in step 9. If you're actually not going to make the amend, you could burn it or you could do something else with it.

But the but one of the things in step 8 is making clear what I would do if I actually did make the amend. And you can make that clear by writing a letter to each person.

I think the, the real big book thumpers, which I consider myself to be a big book thumper, but they would say, nowhere in the big book does it say, put your name on that list. It's the list of persons that you had harmed. And you know, your name was not on any of those four lists there. So they would say, don't do that. On the other hand, I, I believe that the OA literature does talk about making amends to yourself and, and, you know, looking at the harm that you've done to yourself. And I, I, you know, I, I think it's a useful psychological thing. I think it's a useful thing to do.

It could even be spiritual, but I don't think it's part of the actual big book format of what they say. And so those people that are real big buck thumpers, I think would say, oh, no, you don't put your name, own name on there. It's all about what you did to other people. But I think there is some, some usefulness in doing that and, and recognizing that I've hurt myself by holding on to these character defects that might make you more willing to let go of the character defects. If you, if you recognize that by holding on to these character defects, I've hurt myself even more.

And, and you know, pray for help to remove those two. So I'm in favor of it, but it's not according to the big book is my opinion. Now, I would like other people's opinion. Anybody else, anybody else done that? Have they done a Mens to themselves? Now, how do you go about doing that?

Yeah, I like that suggestion of putting your name on the list last, so after you've completed all the other amends, then you can make the amends to yourself.

That would be the ultimate in selflessness, right? Making yourself go last.