The Fellowship of the Spirit in Bayside, Queens, NY

Good morning, everybody.

It's good to be back here this morning. You know, I said yesterday, I really, really love Fellowships of the Spirits. That's, you know, that's a conference that really comes out of my spiritual lineage and I'm, I'm very supportive of it. You know, if you go to Fellowship of the Spirit, you're going to be hearing a solution. You're going to be hearing deep experience with,

with the

recovery process out of the book Alcoholics Anonymous. And you know, you're not going to get surprised.

It's not about entertainment. It's, it's about a message of depth and weight. And that's really what the fellowship of the spirit is about. And I'm, I'm glad to be here today. All right, what what Kerry and I decided to do yesterday was we decided to make the the last two sessions

revolve the last two sessions around the chapter working with others. Now, I think, I think as a chapter in the book Alcoholics Anonymous, this particular chapter is overlooked, criminally overlooked in in the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. My experience, my experience being sponsored in the early days. And if there's anybody that's been around a couple of decades, you'll probably identify with this. But my, my experience in the early days was

there wasn't a specific process for engaging somebody in the steps and helping to get them through the steps of recovery. What there was, was there and there was a, there was a concerted encouragement to keep you in Alcoholics Anonymous, participating in the Alcoholics Anonymous fellowship stuff. And there was some service like, you know, you know, please be a coffee maker. Please take a commitment.

And that's really, that's really what what was going on in my area. So, so when I got a sponsor, you know, the, the sponsor, the first interaction I had with my sponsor and the first instructions my sponsor gave me were these, Chris, I want to see you at a meeting every night until I tell you to stop. That was basically the only instruction I got from my sponsor

in my first three months.

As I started heading towards six months, he was starting to suggest that I do a fourth step and a fifth step with him, which was quite good. However,

understanding alcoholism the way I do now there and understanding the severity of how far down the scale I personally had gone, it's a miracle I stayed sober the first three months. Just going to meetings, you know, I, you know, I,

I was the type of alcoholic who would need to be detoxed. I was the type of alcoholic who who seriously, seriously wanted to separate from alcohol the last three or four years of my drinking and could not. I was powerless. And when I showed up in Alcoholics Anonymous, I was willing to do whatever my sponsor said for me to do. And he told me to go to a meeting every night. This probably saved my life

because action, a lot of action can keep one sober.

But I wasn't going to stay sober for long. I needed a recovery experience. You know, in, in the early days of, of Alcoholics Anonymous, around the time this book was written, a lot of the processes that are in this chapter, working with others were operative, you know, especially in the Akron area. I think less less in New York, NY was a little more psychological. Akron was a little more religious. You know, it's still that way.

You know, those differences are, they're still that way. But but the the the area that was getting the best results, the area where people were staying sober at a larger percentage was Akron and and then very soon after that Cleveland.

So what you're reading in this chapter, working with others has a lot to do with what what Akron was doing. New York was also doing it. Maybe not everything in here, but you know, and there and there's no there's no, there was no set in stone procedure when this book was written. They basically took best practices and assembled them. I don't think any specific sponsor was doing every single thing in this book,

but but, but the majority of them were doing the majority of this

work. Now I believe, I believe alcoholism is an incredibly aggressive illness. It's it's always more powerful than we give it credit for.

When I first was exposed to this chapter working with others, I thought, Oh my God, you know, what an overreaction. I mean, if, if I tried to do this with the people at the beginners meeting, they'd run me out on a rail. You know, we, you know, we, we, we teach people how to share, you know, in the beginners meeting, you know, we're, you know, we're not, we're not, we're not bringing them over to our house and running them through all this inventory. And the first visit, the second visit, you know, a lot of the treatment centers are doing a lot of this

up. So, so when I was first exposed to this chapter, I thought that it was an overreaction. I thought that it was maybe a historical, you know, representation of what some of the early Alcoholics did. But I also thought this, we do it different in New Jersey now.

That's what I thought. Now, as I gained experience with some really, really important teachers in my life, as I, I gained my own personal experience with the step process that's in this book, I started to see that this chapter is incredibly valuable, valuable, incredibly profound.

If you're able to, to utilize the, the instructions in this chapter. Working with somebody,

you are way increasing their chances of recovering. You know, there's a big difference between encouraging somebody to keep coming and offering them a program of recovery that will, that will give them freedom and power. There's a huge difference. Now when, when, when you bring somebody over to your house, some new guy, and you start working, working through the instructions in working with others, are you going to lose some people?

Absolutely. There's some people that are going to see this as an overreaction

and head the other way. And you know what? That's exactly what they should do. You are going to lose the people that you should lose

if you're working, if you're working this process in this book, our time is incredibly valuable. It will say this in this chapter, our time is incredibly valuable and we should not be wasting it on people who will not work with us, who will not follow the directions in this book. We shouldn't waste our time. My first experience as a sponsor was I wanted people to like me and I didn't want to push him away. I really thought that, you know, I don't want to make

mistake and push them away from a, a, you know, that's not my perspective anymore. You know, I don't, I don't purposely piss people off so they leave. Don't get me wrong, I'm, I'm, I'm very compassionate and very inclusive and you know, please come to my Home group. But if you're specifically asking to work with me, there's going to be a different, there's going to be a different approach. I'm going to do

what is in this book.

And you know, one out of five people will hang around for that. Four out of five will see will think that Chris is overreacting. And there's a guy that wants me to be the cookie guy at the meeting. I'm going with the cookie guy. You know what I'm saying? And that's fine. He should be with the cookie guy. I usually get, I usually get the people who are powerless over alcohol or else you're not going to be doing this with me. You know, we don't do this stuff

from a from a place of virtue. We do this from a place of desperation.

We don't approach this work to be a better a a member. That will never work. There's not enough horsepower in that to get you through this. The only horsepower available to get you through the steps is desperation is a true understanding that alcoholism is going to take you out. It's only a matter of time unless you get some spiritual defense against alcoholism and a recovery experience.

So. So I'm all for a renaissance

in the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous, going back to these basics, back to the chapter, working with others now. Now, again, one of the things that I see Alcoholics Anonymous as a whole that they're, they've been very interested in since the 50s

is increasing the people in the fellowship, making the doors so wide open that anybody and everybody can get in here. And that is not a bad idea. That is not a bad. I would have, I would like, I would rather have five people that shouldn't be in here and one that it that should I'd rather have those six people than to than to miss the one guy that really belongs here. So the doors really, really need to be wide open. But the emphasis on the

pamphlets and the service structure and everything, it's not about recovery, it's about fellowship. That's what Alcoholics Anonymous today is focusing on. They want quantity over quality. It's apparent in everything that gets written out in New York today. Now I'm I'm a bit different. I would rather have quality than quantity when it's when it's the guys I'm working with.

Sometime in the late 90s, I was sponsoring, I was sponsoring over 50 guys at one time. And I was, I was, I was allowing them to have a lot of say in how I was sponsoring them. I don't do that anymore. I mean, I, I've really started to pay attention to this particular chapter and this particular chapter is really how we move people through the steps. But how I used to sponsor was if you, if you didn't call me up with problems, I left you alone. You know, if, if you didn't want to do a,

I let you wait. There was a lot of latitude, you know, and again, I was in, I was more interested in quantity than I was in quality. Today, the people that work with me and the people that get through this work, they are on fire. They are card carrying a members in good standing there working with other people. They're taking commitments that you know, their life is blossoming in every single aspect. You know, they're, they're getting better jobs,

you know, they're a better family member, they're a better friend. They don't have enough time in the day. I mean, that's what happens to the people that work with me and get through this this stuff. But not everybody makes it through that's okay with me today. I'm not attached to whether you like me or whether, whether you're on my sponsorship, you know, schedule, you know, I've, you know, he's mine. You know, I don't care about any of that anymore. I really don't

all. All I care about is laying the kit as spiritual tools at your feet

and you and helping you to pick them up and to utilize them in your life. That's my job. I'm not here to raise you up. You know what I mean? I'm not here to be your father. I'm not here. You know, sometimes I become friends, especially the people that go through the steps. We become lifelong friends, no doubt about it, but I don't have any. After they get through the steps, I don't claim authority over them anymore.

They're not mine, you know? I don't call them up and tell them which shoe to tie first.

I don't have the time for that. I'm moving on. I'm moving on and I'm making myself available for the next sick and suffering alcoholic that needs to find a recovery program. And you know, I've, I, I've learned all this stuff by paying closer attention to the literature. I don't come out of a fellowship or a group

where this is common. You know, this is, this is uncommon to use this book as a sponsorship tool. But I'll tell you what, I've tried it both ways. I've tried to be your friend. I've tried to be your mentor. You know, I've tried, you know, I have. I've tried to be your teacher. But when I tried getting you through the steps, that's when I saw

unbelievably powerful results. A lot of the other stuff, you know,

you know, I don't know, most of the, most of the people who didn't get through the steps that I worked with, they're gone. All of the people who got through the steps, I know where they are. We're still connected. We're still connected and they're living a sober, recovered life and there's really good things going on. Every single person that went through these steps, I know where they are. The people who didn't, for the most part, probably 90% of them, I, I, I don't know where they are. I don't know where they are. Maybe they weren't,

you know, hopeless Alcoholics. Maybe they didn't need a vital spiritual experience to be able to move through their life. And that's fine too. But again, our, our time is incredibly valuable as recovered Alcoholics. We, we, we can help other people optionally. But what this book is basically saying is, is when it's incumbent upon us to work with somebody, it's with the people who are willing to go through this process. And

we're, we're going to be going through a little bit of this chapter and

hoping that the chapter will back up basically my, you know, my summation here this morning on, on sponsorship and, and step work.

Hi, I'm caramel alcoholic.

Yeah, well,

it's funny because I've been working with women for, I don't know since, since I was two years sober, since I had an experience with the 12 steps out of the big book. And I'm I'm a tough sponsor. I don't shoot your bail. I don't listen to drama. And we do the work out of the book very clearly. One of the things that I think is atrophied and Alcoholics Anonymous is qualifying an alcoholic,

you know, sitting down and talking with somebody and asking them those questions, the first step questions

before we even start this process, you know, because here's the thing, as Chris was saying, yes, the doors are really wide. And I'm a little, again, I'm in a different place of spiritual development than Chris because, you know, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm only 18 years sober. So, so I'm a little bit more fundamental with that one where like I like the wide doors, but it's my job to weed you out. And that's kind of how I look at it. You know, it's my job. It's my sponsee's job, It's my sponsee sponsee's job.

The women who have been recovered from a hopeless state of mind and body to come in and talk to the newcomer and talk about why they're here. Ask them some questions about their drinking and find out whether or not they're Alcoholics, you know, and if they're not Alcoholics, send them to the appropriate fellowship that is for them. I mean, I've brought a, you know, handful of women through the work who discovered that they were not Alcoholics, that they were drug addicts, that they never put alcohol in their body. They did not drink. They did heroin. I was like, great, there's this thing called CA

Big book. Here we go. Let's get you to the right fellowship. I'm not about not helping people. I'm happy to bring anybody through the work. I've brought people through the work who are Alcoholics. I brought people through the work who are Al Anon's. I brought people through the work who are drug addicts. I brought people through the work who are always in fact, in New Jersey. You know, I was one of the few women who had experience with the four step. So they in the 5th step and amends and actually, you know, work the book. So when OA had this renaissance with the big Book, they would invite me in to do steps

three through 12 because he didn't have anybody who had any experience with it. So when they would do their big book studies, I was the token alcoholic who got invited in to do these studies. Now there are women in a way who have that experience who can bring people through the work in that way. But in New Jersey there wasn't, there wasn't that. So they had to invite an alcoholic in and they were like, don't touch the first step. It's like, no problem. Everything else, let's get going. You know, So when I, when I first came to Alcoholics Anonymous, you know, I told you

very beginning, I started on Friday, I said This is why I am the way that I am because I died in Alcoholics and honest for five years and I literally was dead in Alcoholics Anonymous. Like I died, heart stopped dead, not really sure where I went, but I was gone for a little bit, you know, and I died here and, and I spent years drinking and dying and then I spent two years abstinent, 2 years abstinent with no God and no steps, no nothing, white knuckling it. And I was plotting my suicide again and I was

my drink and I was deciding what I was going to do. And I was trying to figure out what I was going to do it with my daughter who was a year old. And would my, you know, I'm saying, well, you know, my parents are wonderful people. Maybe they'll take her. You know, my husband who my boyfriend who became my husband. I'm like, well, you know, I'm sure he'll be able to help. And I'm writing out my will

and my sponsor calls me up and was like, you know, do you want to go to this meeting? Whether you know, the big book people that we hate out in Staten Island, He's like, let's go to this meeting. You know, like this guy from California is going to be there and like he's going to, I heard he's a pompous jerk and he's going to study with the Dalai Lama. So let's go there and Heckle him and hate them and judge the crap out of them and then discuss how much they suck. I was like, I'm all for that because I'm miserable. I'm writing out my I'm writing out my will. I'm planning my suicide. I know that I'm going to drink again. I know that that means I'm going to

die and I'm having this process in which I'm letting go of my life at 20 years old and planning on how I'm going to, you know, jettison all of this worldly stuff. But I'm going to go to a big book meeting and hate on this guy who's going to study with the Dalai Lama, right? Thank God I did because I got there and he started, he was talking about amends and he said, you know, things like all and stuff like that. And I was like, I take exception to the all, you know, how dare you tell me to make amends to those people? Don't you know what they did to?

And you got that smile, you know that smile that people get like when somebody comes up to you and like, how dare you tell me this? I'm not writing a four step. It's them, you know, And you're just like I have you. You're mine. You're mine.

And he gets that smile and like, mind you, this guy, if Captain Kangaroo and David Crosby had sex and had a love child, this is what this man looked like. OK, so David, Captain Kangaroo and David Crosby's love child is, you know, is he does though. If you've ever met the man, he really didn't look like that. You know, I'm a 20 year old snot nose punk rock Brett from New Jersey and I'm yelling at this guy telling him how dare you tell me this? And he just smiles and he goes, come here. OK, I'm going to ask you some questions.

What happens when you drink?

I don't know. Do you have another drink? Yeah. What happens when you have that other drink? Another one. What happens after that? Another one? It's like, well, what happens when you're not drinking? I think about drinking. Are you OK? When you when you when you when you're not drinking. Do you feel good? No, I feel like shit. He's like, are you irritable, restless and discontent?

So what you got this stuff going on your life and how your personal relationships, Oh, God, was just, you know, like writing my will, trying to, you know, contemplating suicide,

you know, full of fear. Uh-huh. They call me shaky carry because I, I spilled coffee on myself because I'm so trapped in my head that I shake because the waves of thoughts and the brainstorm just expressed themselves physically. You know, I hide at candlelight meetings at night so I don't have to look at people.

And he's like, so how's that working out for you? Not very good

want come here. This person is going to read this book with you. Just read this book and that that's how I got introduced to the, you know, the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous. You know, Joe Hawk accidentally 12 step. You know, how cool is that? But here's The thing is he qualified me. I didn't know that's what he was doing. I had no idea. He was just having a conversation with me. After he qualified me,

he called somebody over and said, hey, you're going to work with her.

And that's how I got a sponsor and how I started working the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous,

you know, and those are things that, you know, we as Alcoholics, you know, recovered Alcoholics need to do, you know, because Chris is right, you know, not, you know, not everybody who ends up in this room is an alcoholic. No, you know, not everybody who ends up in this room needs to work the program the way that I need to work the program. I'm a hopeless alcoholic, meaning meaning that human power cannot come between me and the bottle.

Because of that, I have to work the steps like the like a drowning man, and that means that I have to follow to the letter of the law. The things that are in this book. I told you we can always add, but we don't ever take away.

So when the book tells me, I have to say this, do this, write that, that's what I have to do. And this chapter is incredible. If you read like it was. I had like this epiphany and I'm sure everybody else knew this but me, but I think that I'm original and very, very smart. And I think that like I have like this big book, you know, like I'm a big book investigator. And I remember like after, like, you know, having, you know, work the steps for a handful of years. Like I was reading, I was going through working with others with response because I, I do,

I sit down and I read this chapter with my sponsees. I read the lost chapters too, you know, to the wives and the family afterward, because those are the practicing the principals chapters that nobody ever reads and that people want to know, well, how do I not be codependent? How do I not do these things? I'm like, well, we have chapters on that. You might want to read them. Let's read them. So like when I say I do 161, you know, from the title page 164, that's exactly what I do. I'm a very literal, literal lady.

But here's the deal.

When I was reading this chapter with a sponsee, I had this epiphany. I said, you know, wait a minute. In working with us, it tells us, you know, when we're having this conversation, we share our personal experience. And so first we talk about the physical allergy, right? And then we share our experience with the, with the mental obsession and we share experience with the ISM of alcoholism, right? We're, we're sharing our experience in that first conversation with the alcoholic. And then I was like, wow, that's exactly how the 1st 5 chapters of the book are structured.

Physical allergy, mental obsession, spiritual malady. Oh shit. You mean this whole, this book is a 12 step call in print? I didn't know that. Apparently I wasn't that bright. But, and that's exactly, and it's so funny when you think about it, it's like, you know, so when you just sit down and you read this book with somebody and you start on the title page and you read to 164, you cover just about everything that's in this chapter. And it's really cool that it's laid out like that. So you really don't have to think all that much about it,

you know, but this chapter in terms of, you know, there's, there's that there's that thing, that instinct that you develop as a sponsor, an instinct that you develop as somebody who is in the 12th step and works

here. And I've said this again, and it's probably one of the most profound things that was taught to me, which was that in my first step with somebody else's 12 step, my 12 steps, somebody else's first step. So when my hand is out there and I'm in the trenches, I'm forever in a first step. I can never step away from it because I'm constantly in somebody else's first step. And when I'm holding up that mirror of the first step and alcoholism in three parts of what it means to be an alcoholic to somebody else, I'm forever asking myself the very same questions. So I can never lose conscious contact with that

here

because if I'm in the 12th step, I'm forever in the first step. It's like a snake swallowing its tail. It never ends. But here's something that's also really incredible that was taught to me, which is personal recovery depends on a, a unity, but a, a unity depends on our personal recovery. And again, that's another reciprocal relationship that when I bring this, when I don't have a message of death and wait, when I bring a sick and demented untreated alcoholic spirit to a a, what I'm doing

when I'm doing this is I'm bringing and inflicting my sickness on Alcoholics Anonymous.

When I bring a recovered spirit to Alcoholics Anonymous, what I'm doing is being a service to and a part of the process of Alcoholics Anonymous.

So as much as, and I love this because I get invited, because I've been on the service structure for years now and I, you know, I've served on multiple things and I'm very, I'm all about the 36 principles. I'm all about the circle in the triangle. And I really do check in with it on a regular basis and say, where am I in that in my life? So I do a lot of talks on service structure. So, and I love when they invite me in to do a talk on, on service structure and I start talking about personal recovery and they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,

whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, this is a service event. And I said yes it is.

Personal recovery depends on a a unity and a a unity depends on personal recovery. So if you're a sick demented fuck, you need to have experience with the steps. Excuse my French, because guess what? If there's something called a bleeding Deacon, I can't apply the traditions and concepts to my life until I have that spiritual experience. Until I have that, until I had the spiritual experience that has been necessary for me to recover from alcoholism, the traditions and concepts don't make any sense to me because they're the extrapolation of the principles that we are found in the 12 steps.

You understand what I'm saying? They're Russian nesting dolls. So I can't possibly apply the traditions to my Home group or even my life, which is really fun, putting traditions in our relationships. I can't do that until I can apply the principles of the steps to my life

because I have no experience, I have no form of reference and I have no schema to place them in.

These are all spiritual exercise because we build spiritual muscles, we build the spiritual muscles and we flex those muscles. I can't we who here goes to the gym on a regular basis like myself and is a gym red.

OK, when you started out, did you like did you start like bench pressing like £300, right? We started with like, I remember my trainer was like here, let let you. We're not even going to put any weights on this bar. This bar is 40 lbs enough, right? So like let's just start with the 40 LB bar because you look like you're a weakling. You know, he was a Marine, so he was mean, but but he definitely, definitely got me in great shape. He ran my butt. But the point is, is that he gave me the bar first, right? He didn't put any weight on it. He said, work with this first

build the muscle. Once you can do, once you can do a certain amount of reps with this, we're going to add some weight. Once you could do those reps, then we'll add some more weight and then we'll start doing this. And then we'll start pyramiding. And all of a sudden I'm doing like mountain climbers and I'm standing on my head and I'm like, how did that happen? Because I built the muscle. So the personal experience with the 12 steps is absolutely necessary for me to carry a message of, of depth and weight. So we spent the entire weekend talking to you about where you are in the 12 steps. Where, Where are you?

What agnostic isms do you have? What pockets of agnosticism do you have? What amends are unmade? What? Where are you with 10 and 11? Where are you with spa Check? Where are you with pause? Where are you would ask? Where are you with turn? Where are you with disgust? Where are you with your nightly review? Where are you with morning meditation? Where are you with all of this stuff? Because there's no point to having the conversation we're having this morning.

And unless you're good everywhere else,

because there's this amazing thing, and again, like the big book knowns hide shit from me. Look at that. It says having had a spiritual awakening as the result, not a result, The result, The entire intent of everything that's in this book up into this point is to have that spiritual awakening. That is the result. That is what we're working towards, nothing else. Everything else is gravy. It's ancillary.

Then what do we do once we've had that? Well, that's what this chapter's all about

is what do we do now that we're here?

We've done all of this stuff. We're armed with the facts about ourselves. We were at perfect peace and ease, right? We're not afraid of the past. We're not wishing to shut the jar on it. We're placed in a position in neutrality, safe and protected. We're doing prayer meditation. We, we're in a place where we've had this awakening. Now, how do we transmit this? And that's the thing that This is why the 12 step and not why the big book is so damn important.

I, I'm not going to tell you that if you, you know, read the step book and it did something with it that you didn't have some kind of spiritual experience. You probably did.

You know, you can go to like an ashram and have a total spiritual experience when that's the point of them too. You know, you could do all kinds of stuff and have spiritual experiences. That's great.

Can you transmit it? I've met plenty of people like it where I, where I live in Pennsylvania. I mean, there's not a whole lot of women who do big book recovery, which means like I sponsor like anybody who does any kind of step work, you know, like I'm their sponsor or their grand sponsor or their grand grand sponsor. I'm known as the bitch to my face.

To my face. They're like, they call you the bitch but you're nice. I'm like, I know, but that's OK.

There are people out where I live who, you know, the women really don't do any kind of work at all except for the women that work with me and my sponsor and blah, blah, blah. But the guys are like some of these old timer guys, and they're out of New York, you know, they might have worked the steps like 40 years ago, you know? And they're really cool,

you know, And they do some kind of step thing, like something like you'll talk to me, you'll hear stuff, and you're kind of like, I'm getting you. Then you lost me. You know, when you're listening to me, you're like, OK, OK. What

Huh. Uh oh. But they sound kind of good and like they're like, they're sober 40 something years and they're not like hacking up people and burying them in their backyard or anything like that. I like, they seem like pretty normal guys, but the people they sponsor like are completely insane. Completely. And they say craziness and they're in the meetings and they're talking about complete insanity and like, say stuff like, well, you don't really need to be an alcoholic to be an Alcoholic Anonymous. And I'm like, Oh my God, my head just exploded,

you know? So because The thing is, is these guys with the 4050 years may have had a spiritual experience. They probably had something transmitted from their sponsor, but they didn't get a delineated direction. They didn't get when you do this, this happens, then you need to do this, then you need to do this. The clear cut directions, the instructions, the recipe for spiritual experience. They got some sort of word of mouth transmitted

thing.

The problem with that is, is it's very difficult to transmit some ephemeral

experience that you had 40 years ago without a clear cut process.

So these guys had this experience 40 years ago and there have senile, they've forgotten most of it. And so they throw out stuff, you know, like one liners, you know, and there and there's sponsors walk around throwing out the one liners. And so like they're all like thrown out the same 1 liners. And meanwhile, like, you know, I don't know, like they're people. Like we have rules like you have to leave your gun in your car when you come to our meetings. Like you, like when you're, when you're, when you're attending meetings where people feel that they need to carry

weapons into the meeting, you know, that there's something going on up there. And like, it's not the bears, OK? You know, like everyone like, well, you live in Pennsylvania. Like maybe there's wolves. No,

these people are just full of fear and you're to carry weapons with them to to protect themselves from what? I don't know the trees, bunnies, not sure. But you see, my point here is I'm not denigrating the spiritual experience at these old timers have, but what I'm seeing to you is that

we need to have a message and we need to have a spiritual experience and be able to transmit this and it needs to be predictable. You know, I've been all over the world. I mean, one of the coolest things about me is like people invite me places to speak, which is bizarre because nobody ever wants now, nobody ever wanted me anywhere. Like people were happy when I left. They were like, dude, I think God, she's gone. I'm sure you'll be doing that in a couple hours. But the idea is like, by being me, like I get invited to all, you know, like I'm, you know, all over Europe. I was in Australia. I'm like,

it's like awesome all over the United States. Like I'm this little, like, you know, punk rock chick from New Jersey who grew up and became a soccer mom. And all of a sudden, like, I'm like speaking all over the world and people want to know what I have to say about God, which seems utterly bizarre to me, but whatever, you rock on God, right? But the idea is I go all over the world and, and, and, and if I walk into a McDonald's, like I know what I'm going to get. I walk into a Ruby Tuesday's, I know what I'm going to get. It's it's predictable,

right? And I don't want to call the big book that McDonald's or Ruby Tuesdays if a spiritual experiences, but kind of is

it's a you know, there there is that's it's a cause and effect. We do this, we get that you do this, you get that. Each step takes the next step takes the next step takes the next step until you're at this place. We're all of the steps are working together at once

and that's step 12.

You want to

all right. So Chapter 7 is on page 89. Chapter 7 working with others. There's a great promise that starts starts off right away. And if you are alcoholic, if you are powerless over alcohol, this is an incredible promise. It says practical experience shows that nothing will so much ensure immunity from drinking as intensive work with other Alcoholics. I don't know about anybody else, but immunity from alcohol is probably a good thing if you're an alcoholic. And that's that's a promise

you will ensure immunity from alcohol through intensive work with other Alcoholics. Yet we still see a lot of people in a a year after year after year, not sponsoring, not taking commitments, not working with other people. Again, this is another reason why I think this chapter is is so important.

I rarely have we seen a person fail is thoroughly followed a path. Step 12 is is is part of the path that you have to thoroughly follow? I think. I think it it was essential for me to pass this message on.

If you really want to learn something, teach it. You will really learn something when all of a sudden now you're teaching it. I got to tell you

this works when other activities fail. This is our 12th suggestion. Carry this message to other Alcoholics. You can help when no one else can. And I believe this is true. I'll tell a quick story. I signed myself into treatment in, in April of 1989, March of 1989 and they would put, this was a terrible rehab, by the way.

It was absolutely horrid. Now that I know, you know, good treatment processes and there are good treatment processes and there are good treatment professionals out there, I make use of what they have to offer. Once a week I'm sending somebody to a recovery center or treatment center or a detox, you know, so I, I make use of what the good professionals have to offer. But this place that I sign myself into, I got a 1/2 hour meeting with my counselor in 28 days. That's it,

that that should be malpractice. You should be put in jail

for something like that because the therapeutic alliance is the single most important characteristic of treatment and the therapeutic alliances. How well have you gotten along with your counselor? How well have you identified? Are you, are you willing to respect them enough to, to maybe follow some of their suggestions?

It's incredibly important. So for me to have had 1/2 an hour, you know, 1/2 an hour meeting with my, with my counselor, it was terrible. But here was they put me in a lot of groups. And I remember being in this one group and there was an alcoholic counselor that would run a group and I would just look at them because I knew when he was looking at me, he could see right through me, you know what I mean? I knew that I couldn't put anything past this guy. I was always very honest with him just because I knew he knew, you know what I mean? I can't even describe it. I

I knew that this guy understood and then there was somebody in there that wasn't an alcoholic. This woman identified herself as an adult child of an alcoholic. I had no idea what that even was in 1989. I now understand, but I'm thinking every single time she started to talk, she said, I'm I'm so and so I'm an adult child of an alcoholic and I would think, you know, I'm Chris, I'm going to I'm an adult psychotic from a librarian, but you know, I don't I don't start off every

with that. You know what I mean? What what is she talking about? You know, so, but but anyway, I remember this one day I was on some tirade, you know, it was my turn to share, you know, some share and some, you know, garbage is just coming out of my mouth like this. And she goes, Chris, Chris, hold on, hold on, stop, stop, stop for a second. So let me ask you a question. And I'm like, what? And she goes, tell me, are you happy, mad, sad or glad? Oh God. And I'm like,

what? I mean, listen, I'm an alcoholic in the middle of detoxing,

you know, emotionally, you take every negative emotion, you put him in a blender and you push the 10 button. And that was about what I was I, you know, happy man said or glad I could. I, you know, I wanted to kill her after she asked me that. You know, if she was an alcoholic, she would never have been stupid enough to ask me that. You know what I mean?

You know, and, and so I knew the difference between somebody who could relate to me like this alcoholic counselor and somebody who couldn't. The happy man said glad lady. And, and you know, I'll tell you what, if you would have asked me, who am I going to trust? Who am I going to listen to it? You know, it's the guy that I know he understands. So we can help where other people can. One of the, one of the things that I deal with all the time is when I'm taking somebody through the steps and they're, they're getting better. You know,

their wife is usually pissed off because, you know, all of a sudden he's, he's spending one week with this Chris guy and he's starting to get better. And I've been working on him for 10 years.

I mean, you know, sorry, sorry about that. You know, we, we can help where, where other people, they may have great intentions, they may have great skill sets, but there is, there's something, you know, Carrie was talking about Alcoholics being in Alcoholics Anonymous. There's a, there's a primary purpose there. There's a singleness of purpose. There is that identification that happens with an alcoholic to an alcoholic. You know, I've, I've also taken some people through the steps who were, who were, you know,