The Bexleyheath Came to Believe sponsorship workshop in London, UK

Thanks, Becky. Dave's still an alcoholic. So what we gonna do next is

I'm just gonna talk you through what happens from the point where somebody asks me to be their sponsor to finishing the book work. Really. So quite often the way it works, I'm gonna use Alpha book as well because my 1:00, I've got it out this morning and it was all the pages were falling out. I didn't have time to stick them back in

'cause it's a well used book,

you know. So the pages in my book are well used and they kind of stuck in the tape and stuff like that

about more attachment to that particular book, I guess. But

you know, talk about Elspot. Thanks, Alf.

Well, you not that you've, I thought you'd let go of that resentment about the old book.

So you might be at a meeting or, you know, maybe after the meeting or standing outside the meeting or, you know, in the in the detox unit or, you know, just answer the phone call from somebody. And

quite often they might dither around the question. So, you know, you find blokes will ask you how you are, you know, did you go to the football? And how was that as a wife? And like, you know, when you've been around a while, you know what it is they really want to ask you

when I started doing some long spear about how they're stuck in their recovery and things like that.

And again, you know, if you've been around a while, you know what the question is he really wants to ask him. You see, I'll never make it easy.

Never.

I can't enjoy it.

Watch him squirming a little bit, you know, because I know he's got to ask. You see, I know that. Let's act of humility to say, will you?

And so then eventually it asks the question. So you know, I know you're busy, Dave, but you know, and all that and everything. And I was wondering if you did have a time and maybe it's possible if we could

in the in the start of Hugh Grant, you know,

would you be my sponsor? Yeah.

And quite often you find that new people don't have that kind of anxiety actually. So if they're at their second or third meeting, they just come up and ask because they don't they, you know, they just knew, didn't they? You know, sort of the people that have been around a little bit longer have that kind of anxiety.

All right, Esther

and I won't say yes straight away. Never,

because what what when he's asked me so he sponsorships like a contract really, right. And what you need to be clear about

in embarking upon a sponsorship relationship is what are the terms of the contract?

So when he's asked me, will you be my sponsor? He's asking either out of desperation or his or based on his idea of what he thinks the contract is. So he'll have an idea about what he thinks a sponsor is and what he wants from that sponsorship relationship.

And that could be very different from what I'm actually offering.

You know, he might be somebody who actually does want somebody who's going to sit and listen to him for an hour a week in an informal counselling session. Yeah.

And the people who do do that, I mean, as I said earlier on, you know, it's everybody can do whatever they want. You know, I really don't mind. I don't want to do that,

so I'll never say yes. What I say is we need to talk about that

because we need to be clear about what it is that you're expecting from me and what it is that Ioffer.

And usually I find that people find that because actually it helps them, you know, they want to actually themselves, they want the, the terms and conditions of the contract clarified anyway.

So I normally arrange to meet them

in a, you know, a couple of days time or whatever and on neutral grounds. Often I find that first meetings beneficial. It can be quite intimidating to come to somebody's house and things like that, you know, sort of cold calling, you know, things, you know. So to meet a neutral ground I find is quite useful for that first meeting.

So I meet at the McDonald's or the coffee shop or whatever it is, you know, and have we have an initial chat

about what it is that's on offer.

Yeah. And I usually start that conversation with thanking him for asking me, you know, first of all, because I understand that to ask anybody to be your sponsor is, is quite a big risk actually, especially if you've been around a while and you know, what's involved in working the steps and that you're going to be telling people things about yourself and inviting that person into your life

on a very kind of intimate kind of basis.

So I always thank him for asking me. And then I, I proceeded to tell him what it is I don't offer because I think that's most important

personally.

And I start with, well, I don't offer counselling.

That's not what I offer in this in this relationship.

And if you ask for clarification around that, I'll say, well, you know, a person sent to counselling is really useful in some situations in life. I've I've accessed it in, you know, in recovery for various things and

can be really helpful. I found it helpful

as a sponsor in AI isn't what Ioffer, but that's not what I offer. So, you know, if you want think that's going to be helpful for you, then please go and find somebody who can do that and you can do it as well as see. It's not about saying that I want to do the a a steps and that means I can't do anything else. You know, you can do the IA steps and you can do personal centric counseling, you can do CBT, you can do

psychoanalytic therapy, you can do whatever you want.

Well, actually that's up to you, isn't it? I mean, there's many ways to heal human being.

And so I'll make it clear that I don't offer that.

I make it clear that I won't offer him any financial advice. You know,

I'll explain to him that BIN is I've been bankrupt in my life. I figure that's lost me the right

to advise anybody about managing their finances. But, you know, if he's got problems with his finances, then maybe he should go and speak to the various agencies around that can offer that service for you. Citizen's Advice and Consumer Credit Counselling Service. You could help you with that kind of stuff. Yeah,

I also, I don't offer a relationship advice, you know, I don't do that.

You know, he's got problems with relationships. Usually they have, you know, usually the problem is the relationship that they've got or the problem is that they haven't got a relationship. OK.

Anybody relate to that?

They're both relationship problems, aren't they?

I don't offer any advice about that. There are organisations in in society that can do that. Relate as one, you know,

marriage guidance and things like that. I don't offer marriage guidance. I'm happily married now, but to get to the point where I've been happily married, I've had some disastrous relationships.

So well, export relationships because I've had loads of them. It doesn't mean I can give advice about them.

So I don't offer that kind of advice.

And then I'll say to them, I don't ask you for any advice at all and say what I said, well, that's your financial advice. Don't do relationship, marriage guidance advice. Actually, I don't do any advice

that's all of that arrangement either. I don't do anything.

I said, what do you mean? And I say, well, see, my, my position with this is that your life, your life decisions you make are your decisions. You own them, not me. I'm not making your decisions for you because then you can come and blame me later when they go wrong.

What would I do?

I said. Also, I understand because at the time I've been sober and things I've seen,

you know, in some situations you might be the best person to make your decisions rather than somebody else. So there's a lot, some people that I talk about the sponsor always knowing better and I'll, you know, I'll dispute that. Does he always know better? You know,

I've got two psychology degrees and a master's degree in social work. My first sponsor was a gangster who'd read one book.

Does he know more about behavioural psychology than me? Probably not.

So allow people to understand that I'm not there to control their life right

now. It goes one or two ways. Some people are delighted about that because what they've been worried about is that they're going to lose some kind of autonomy for having a sponsor. And some people are concerned about it because what they want is somebody to take responsibility for them. And there are some people, young men, it's a particularly apparent in young men that actually want somebody to tell them what to do. Yeah, they're seeking that. And then people don't do well under my sponsorship,

they tend to end up going somewhere else when they do better.

I don't change what Ioffer based on the person sat across ioffer, what ioffer because of the reasons I spoke about earlier on today.

So I explained to them that their decisions of their own, I won't interfere in that

and then ask them for a couple of things.

So, you know, the first thing that I asked for is that you will be prepared to go to any lengths your recovery.

And usually they say yes, I don't really know what that means. You know, do we, any of us really know what any links means? I didn't know

and then I thought maybe it meant you had to travel a long way, right to the end of the central line or something.

And I ask him, like my sponsor first asked me, he said, you know, I'm quite happy to do this work with you, Dave, if you promised me that when we're finished you'll carry it to another bloke and carry this message.

And I asked him that I'll say, you know, I'm quite prepared to do this work with you as long as you say to me that when we're finished, you're prepared to carry this to another bloke. And usually they say yes, meaning no,

but hoping that you can't see the fact that they're live.

It's my experience. Body language is a giveaway, yes.

And you know when I shared the story earlier on about the first bloke that asked me, see, my sponsor said to me, you know, why don't you do it? It might make you learn this program you've been talking about, Dave. But then he also said,

Remember that promise? You made me

see you. See you by a promise, didn't you? Remember, Sir, This is that. When we finish all this work, you'll carry it to someone else. Now here's your chance.

And it was that promise I made him. They enabled me to become a sponsor. I don't think I would have done it otherwise,

you know, is to pay my debt to him.

And through doing that, that first time, I was able to do it some more and experience the joys that come for inviting them other people into my life.

I'll get him to say that. I I asked him if he's prepared to do that. I ask him

for anonymity in sponsorship.

There are two reasons why I do that.

The first one is kind of a, it's redundant now really, but years ago in AI I've got quite unpopular and lots of people didn't really like me very much and to the point that I used to get death threats

and from other side of members of the fellowship.

So I wouldn't want the people that I work with to have to experience that.

So, you know, I'll say that, you know, to protect yourself or someone asks you, your sponsor is just tell them it's not their business.

Yeah. And then the second reason is about my ego.

So, you know, I don't want to be in a position where I'm the big I am with all these sponsors thinking that I know everything.

So, he said. Nobody knows who our sponsor.

It's very difficult for that to occur.

So I asked for that anonymity.

But the bottom line is, you know, people are asking you who your sponsor is, what is none of their business, really, is it? Yeah,

there are some people who like to use the sponsor like a top trump card. Do you know what I mean? You know, you're talking in your meetings in a A and so and so says, well, my sponsors, this person. Oh, yeah. But I've got this person, you know,

he, he, he goes 270 miles an hour as you're one only goes.

Yeah, too awake. Yeah, they can't help to prevent that as well a little bit.

So then he's sitting there and he's and he's even wants to do it. He doesn't like that's the that's the reality, isn't it? You know, I'll explain what Ioffer. You know I say what Ioffer. So this is what I don't offer. These are the things I I require from you and this is what I offer. That's a journey through the book Alcohol. It's anonymous. I would expect you to come to me once a week and we will read through this book. And as we go through the book, we will take the actions that the book suggests

and

sounds quite simple

and we might have some general conversation. And he's quite keen often to proceed straight away, but to give me an answer that, you know, it's quite difficult to say no when somebody's sitting across from you. All right,

so I'm aware of that. So I'll say to him, look, don't give me your answer now,

go home, sit on it for two days, couple of days, 48 hours. My mate Daniel was used to say, think I'll take it for 48 hours before you make your decision. A lot of things change in 48 hours.

OK, I didn't give me a call.

Let me see where we go.

A lot of time, you know, they bring up and they say I wanted to ring you yesterday and I really want to do it, you know, But I have had a few people that after thinking about it for 48 hours have realised that isn't really what they want from that relationship with, with a sponsor. They want something different

and I continue to seek that, you know, they'll find someone else to facilitate that. So if everybody did exactly the same thing, I think in some way, shape or form, a, a would be diminished by that. So if everybody did it exactly the way that I did it, you know, there'd probably be a whole load of people that really wouldn't be effective for actually.

So it's about, for me, it's about remembering that and encouraging that man then to find where he needs to go, you know, and if he asks me, I might offer him some suggestions, you know what I'm saying? That's not really what I'm looking for. What I'm interested in is this. I said, well, maybe you should go to this meeting or I got this bloke here, this number, maybe you should ring him, you know, that kind of stuff.

And then we'll arrange to meet

the following week. I usually, I usually only meet with people for no longer than about an hour and a half. And

my experience, reason why that is, is that my experience working with people is that that's pretty much the limit of anybody's concentration span, especially when they're new. You're lucky to get an hour and a half hour.

Yeah, I used to, and I've done a few times when the situation has has warranted it taken through taking people through the program in the day. I've done that a couple of times. One of those friends of mine in in finishing other fellowships who do that.

It can be a value by doing stuff. I think often what what goes wrong down the line is that that person doesn't have a structure that they can pass on and often they don't make very good sponsors themselves.

So I think that meeting with people in a structured way over a course of weeks I found then gives them some kind of framework which they can rely on when they're frightened to do it. That's a sponsor

not having to rely on their memory of one day's events.

So we meet the first time and the first, the first sit downs often he's a bit nervous, you know, he come round, we have a cup of tea, make a cup of tea, have some general conversation and he's got his big book.

I used to make a point, I think I had Cliff Bishop. He was saying that if people don't turn up with a big book, he'd send them home

today

and then. So I'll take that one. Somebody turned up once. He didn't have his big book with him, I'll send him home. I'm not sitting there. I think it's stupid. I've got four big books on the shelf.

So, so, you know, don't do that, but you know, I understand the principle of that. You know, are you coming prepared to do what we're supposed to be doing? You know, and carrying a big book in your hand is an indication that you are coming with that intention.

So, but my wife in the fellowship, we got loads of big books, aren't we?

So anyway, we sit down, we start reading The Doctor's Opinion,

and a lot of big book sponsors start with the preface and the forwards.

In fact, I think most big book sponsors do that. That I know.

The reason I don't is that my experience has shown me that quite often I only see somebody once,

for whatever reason. Yeah.

So I think that if I'm only, I always go with never knowing whether this person is going to make it. So don't, you know, I've got no idea what the outcome is going to be for anybody.

So I always think about what's the thing that I can give him? It's going to be most helpful if I only see him once. That's probably the information. In the doctor's opinion.

It's probably the most useful thing I'm giving.

So we read through the doctor's opinion,

and I think one of the one of the arts of being a sponsor in in recovery has been around a while, is to try and always remember where the new man is.

All right? I can't actually put myself in his place because it's physically impossible to do that.

But I can remember what it was like not to understand what the book was talking about,

you know? And I couldn't, and I'm well educated. I couldn't really grasp the concepts of the book was on about.

So when you've been around a while and you've kind of maybe read the book hundreds of times, it means there's lots of meetings and you've got elaborate ideas around some of the things in the book. You've got lots of things highlighted in your book and underlined things that are important. It can be difficult to keep it simple.

For the Newman.

So the way, the way that I do that, the way that I endeavour to do that is I just read the words on the page,

no more, no less.

No, I don't. I don't have elaborate discussions about certain sentences and what they may or may not mean. I don't talk about the, the history of certain lines or things like that or that may have changed from the the 1st edition to the second edition. Yeah,

what that may or may not have meant to Clarence Schneider in 1939.

I'll just read the words on the page

and then what I've what I've realized is that people's understanding even comes without to read that or not right. But you get you get an opportunity all the time to reinforce learning. So

I'll read through it once with them and I do the reading, you know, and the reason I do that is that what I found, I know that some sponsors, they share the reading, so they do a page each and stuff like that. And you know, yeah, it's perfectly valid. But what I've realised over the years is that quite often some people are anxious about reading. Some blokes I've worked with over the years, I've been able to read at all when they come the way home, you know, things like that.

So it's, you know, I'll take the pressure off of them and I'll do the reading. Yeah. Also, they need to be able to listen and try and absorb some of that information,

not be concentrating on, on banana, pronounce the word properly. You know, worried about what I might think of them if they stumble over a word, things like that. So I try and be considerate of that, but I'll just do the reading. And so then the challenge as a sponsor, see how many times have I read the doctor's opinion? Hundreds, right?

You see, I can read the doctor's opinion, and if I'm not practicing presence, I can be doing my shopping list, having an argument with Liana and Reed at the same time. It's great,

but what it gives me is an opportunity always just to practice presence because I'm doing this out of service. So I'll just do it. And I read it and it's about me being present with that,

with that new person

within. I'll elaborate on a couple of sections after we've read through it once

to talk about the phenomenon of craving. So it says on XXV I, I, I. We believe, as I suggested a few years ago, the action of our coal is chronic. Alcoholics is a manifestation of analogy. But the phenomenon in the craving is limited to this class never occurs in the average temperate drinker. These allergic types can never safely use alcohol in any form at all. Once having formed the habit, family cannot break it. Once having lost their self-confidence, their reliance upon human beings, their problems pile up and then become astonishingly different,

difficult to solve.

And it says on the following page, all these and many others have one symptom in common. They cannot start drinking without developing the phenomenon of craving. This phenomenon, as we have suggested, maybe the manifestation of an allergy which differentiates these people and sets them apart as a distinct entity. It has never been, by any treatment with which we are familiar, permanently eradicated. The only relief we have to suggest is entire abstinence.

And I will then just tell him a couple of stories. You know, most of you will have heard my stories if you've been in meetings with me. I use very simple stories. You know, I'll talk about my train station experiences, you know, my inability to get home at night. You know, through once having started to drink, the craving becoming paranoid in my life to other concerns, meaning I was unable to do what I probably intended to do before I started to drink. And the reason why I picked the simple stories

is that it's to avoid the kind of war story top Trump thing that we do.

You know what I mean? You know, because everybody will identify someone alcoholic. Everybody will identify with lack of control, right? When you start to drink, having a lack of control over the amount that you drink. Not everybody will identify with going to prison, beating your wife, crashing the car, losing the job. That stuff happens as a consequence of being unable to control the amount. If it's about the key things about control,

we'll never talk about the quantity that I drink because I understand that for people, they're hooked up on that when they first come in,

the definition that most mainstream,

mainstream sources use of an alcoholic will be in some way, shape or form based on quantity. So there will be like safe limits of alcohol that you can drink and unsafe limits that you can't have, you know, these unit things that the government like to promote and stuff like that.

So I never talk about quantity. I never say that I drank, you know, 2 bottles of this or whatever. I'll just talk about not being able to control it. And what you'll find is, is that if you can use the simple language, they'll identify if they are or if they won't, they won't.

Of all the people I've worked with, I've only ever read two people I've got to this point with.

They haven't been able to identify the phenomenon of craving, so that suggests to me that one of them came back later. So probably one I know of. I think the case is a mistake and identity in our fellowship are quite low,

quite long. I think in our society in in England, we have a very socially acceptable tolerance of alcoholic drinking. So if you've got a problem with alcohol and you've ended up in AI, you're probably quite bad.

Very few cases of mistaken identity in my experience.

So that would be the the first meeting. I'll then I'll send him away with an exercise,

which is it's not in the book, but I think it's helpful is that I will, I'll ask him to write down a couple of experiences in his life when the phenomenon of craving become paramount in his life. So that's a couple of times when he's gone out to start, gone out to to drink, but expect him to come home at a certain time or do something different.

Just two experiences.

I'll get him to write down the the five most insane things he's done whilst drunk.

So, you know, crashed a car,

yeah. Got arrested,

broken, took a bad van.

That's me.

Stole a camel. That was me.

And then the last part is to to consider, I asked him to consider the possibility that he might be the average temperate drinker. You know, it's in one of the little paragraphs I just read from the Big Book and Doctor Silkworth's opinion,

it talks about

this energy, this phenomenon in the craving differentiating us from the average temperate drinker. It never occurs in them. So the average temperature in can never not once in his life

experiences that phenomenon craving ever.

So I'll get him. I'll get the new man to consider that. I'll say don't just give yourself a straight answer straight away. You know, sit with it. Ask yourself the question over and over. And what that's designed to do is to because you're either one or the other,

even you had the phenomenon craving in your life, which means you're the alcoholic of the typescribed in this book or you haven't.

So is it possible that you could be the average temperate drinker

and by thinking about that, you may be able to surrender to the idea that he, he's an alcoholic,

helps with that. I'll get him to come back the following week. And then the following week we do chapters two and three together. The reason why we missed Bill's story

is because, again, like I spoke about before,

I might only see him twice.

Yeah, if you come back the second time, there's no guarantee he's going to come back a third time. So what's the next most important information I can give him?

Chapters 2 and three? So I've given him the first part in the first week, the physical

second part. Second week is the mental.

See, Chapter 2 introduces us to this concept

that if the if the problem was just physical,

all you have to do is choose not to drink and it'll be all right. Wouldn't he?

They say, isn't it if you just got physical, you just got the energy going on, Choose not to do it. Don't come to a a. Bob's your uncle.

Why not,

before we do the reading, I'll get him to tell me his two things that he's written down about his phenomenon and craving, You know,

just to get him thinking about his drinking story. See, the reason I do that early on? It's partly so that he can start to create a narrative around that,

because what makes you most effective later on as a sponsor if you've got a clear understanding of your own drinking story. If you haven't, you'll never be able to help people in here.

That's my experience. So lots of really spiritual people who don't understand their drinking story can't really help people

in here.

So read through chapter 2 and on page 24 we sort of spend a little bit of time thinking about the fact is that most Alcoholics, for reasons you obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink or so-called willpower becomes practically non-existent. We are unable at certain times most important, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defence against the first ring.

I'll tell him about my experiences at the train station,

how there were times I walked across the concourse at London Bridge and I think to myself, I'm going the host house on the corner there, have a pint worked out today. But I wouldn't. I'll say no. I know it happens when I go in there. I'll go in there, I'll drink till I can't control it and I'll end up with the last train. I'm falling asleep waking up in Ramsgate. I don't want to do that, but I won't go in there. Yeah,

maybe a few days ago past I'll be walking across the concourse at London Bridge and the thought will pop in my mind. You got 5 minutes to your train comes though

you could have a quick pint. Gonna be like a little seesaw moment maybe That's not such a good idea, you know? But one won't hurt.

At that moment I was unable to bring into my mind was sufficient force the memory of the suffering of even a week or a month ago. Simple stories

keep it simple for people.

We get through that chapter. So I'm introduced into the idea

of the in scientists and mine that proceeds to 1st drink in chapter 2, which is the intention of chapter 2, right? And it outlines in chapter 2 that there is a solution to that. It outlines that the solution to that is spiritual nature.

At the end, when we finish Chapter 2, we normally make a cup of tea and I'll get him to tell me his five most insane things that he's written down from the week before.

And

you say something like,

well,

I was in Ibiza,

you know, well I had a few drinks and I'll beat my mate up.

It was really shined with himself.

You know, we said around about nothing. College, remember what it's about. We had a fight and I beat him up

and the following dark remember thinking myself, aren't you going to drink again?

It was awful.

So I work kind of sounds bad, you know?

Yeah. So did you drink again after that?

We said yeah, I did. Yeah, I did have a drink again.

So the next time you picked up a drink, what was you thinking? He said. What do you mean? What do you mean? What was I thinking?

What are you still don't know? I don't really know, I said. I can't even think about it. The moment before you picked up that first drink, what was going through your mind?

I don't know. It's just what I was going to have a drink,

enjoy myself, have a night out.

So what you thinking about beating your mate up? Was you thinking that you going to go out tonight and kick the shit out your mate again?

No, wasn't really. No, I wasn't. Wasn't in my mind.

OK,

OK, just tell me another one.

Yeah, go. Arrested for drink driving, lost my license which meant I lost my job.

Serious, isn't it?

Did you drink again after that? Oh yeah, I had a drink. I drink next day.

So what was you thinking when you had a drink next day? What's going on?

Well, before I had a drink, I said yeah, he said. Oh, he said. I just wanted, I just wanted to get rid of the hangover.

I said. What are you thinking about? What the consequences might be of you having another drink? Is it? No, no, not really.

No, not at all.

And he says I said, what's the next one? I said bad one, he says.

I got drunk in blackout, beat my wife up,

shined myself for that, he said. I told her I wasn't going to drink again. After that I said, did you drink again?

Oh yeah, I started to drink again. I didn't drink for a couple of weeks,

I said. What's going through your mind when you picked up a drink the next time?

He said. Well he said I just ended up in the pub with me mate and he offered me a drink and I took one.

I said what was you thinking? So I just thought I'd have a drink. I'll see what you're thinking about your wife or what might happen after you drank,

he said. No,

I've started to introduce him to start to think

about the mindset of the chronic alcoholic.

MMM

I'll suggest to him that the most insane thing he's done

in his life

isn't them things at all that he's written down.

He's going back and having another drink after doing them things.

The most insane thing

for the alcoholic

is that he will drink again, thinking this time it will be different

or not really remembering what happened last time in its full clarity.

Is it LED starting to shake now? OK, no, let's go. What? What? What?

Yeah, if you know this stuff, you learn it all right, and you get good fluent with your own stories,

you can make you can you can enable a surrender moment in people with these chapters. They're most important. Don't skip them.

The sponsorship for me really took off when I started doing all of this stuff at depth.

Yeah, I used to think the important stuff came in steps 3456 and seven. It isn't. Most important stuff in this book is step one,

which is why most of it's about step one.

Don't ever think it's a waste of time.

So anyway, we don't move on to chapter 3, and they're spinning a bit now.

The chapter 3 piles it on

piles it on. Fantastic chapter.

You know,

we go through that chapter. It defines alcoholism,

you know? So you got the first step is to concede that you're an alcoholic, which is what we're doing with him now. We're teaching him what alcoholism is. Yeah,

because two relapse examples in the in the in that chapter, a guy called Fred, a guy called Jim.

One of the big myths in the fellowships is that you're going to get a warning,

and often some of the language that we've used in the fellowships is

enable people to think that that's the case. You know, we talk about the condition being a physical allergy and a mental obsession.

And the problem of using that language is, first of all, it's not in the book, in one of the four words it's used as a phrase, mental obsession. But in the main text it's not used as that. The, the mental part of our condition isn't called a mental obsession. It's called no effective mental defence

and the reason why it could be misleading is that people relate that language to the idea of other types of obsession that they have.

You know, obsession with the girl, the football club, the preoccupation with it.

I think about it a lot. It's on my mind a lot. I'm obsessed with it. It's all I think about

so often. They say in you, in rooms, the obsession's been removed.

That should feel safe, doesn't it?

Session has been removed. Don't. Don't got it no more. Don't think about it anymore. It's gone,

yeah, which is nice,

but it isn't that major powers

and the danger we're thinking that it was that kind of thinking that makes you powerless is that lead you into a full sense security and make you think that you will get a warning before you drink.

That I wake up one day, it'd be all over me like a rash. I'll be obsession about it and I'll be able to help me meetings and ring my sponsor.

Wilson smashes out in chapter 3. Smashes it to bits.

It's 2 examples. A guy called Jim,

he got up in the morning, no intention of drinking, wasn't all over him like a rash. Just went into a roadside place that sold that sold liquor. I think we call them pubs, don't we?

And he had a sandwich looking for a customer. Don't know. Do you sell cars in pubs? I don't know.

And the thought popped in his mind,

as long as he mixed it with milk, he could have a whiskey.

Just a momentary thing at that moment. See, at that moment, Jim?

Was unable to bring into his mind a sufficient force the memory of the suffering of even a week or a month ago. And he picked up a drink and he just. He just done 6 stints in the asylum. Jim,

you know, you're not having a good time. You've been having a good time with the drinking. Yeah,

momentary thing. No warning

Fred.

Fred not cloud in the horizon for Fred. End of a perfect day,

all right. Oh, Fred, He's loving it, isn't he? He's having a great day.

Couple of cocktails with dinner won't hurt. Maybe a highball, A thought as he crossed the hotel lobby. No intention of drinking that day. None.

See

if you can read through this stuff with that man already in a position of kind of starting to understand the mindset of a chronic alcoholic. You can watch him surrender in front of your very eyes. See it happen. I've seen it happen to people with 20 years sobriety, being in a a 20 years

sat with me with this book surrender in front of my eyes, weeping their eyes out, not understanding how they've been out to stay sober as long as they have.

So he often leaves this meeting feeling a bit deflated.

Yeah, I'll say to him, it's OK, it's all right. You know, he said. Why? He said. We got a solution.

Well, we're all right. We're going to do all right.

Yeah. Do you think this is true for you?

There is, yeah. I can see now clearly that when I started to drink I had no control.

When I stopped, I had no power not to start again.

He comes back the following week. We do Bill's story. We're going backwards now, so he's got the important stuff. And we go through Bill story, through Bill story. We read through Bill's story and I'll point it out to him in Bill's story, the, the various occasions when Bill's relapsed experience. No, no choice.