The 22nd Annual Mens Fall Retreat in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Hey, thank you Bill. The, the, what really happened now, the, the committee did a time study and they calculated would get out here Tuesday at noon.

So they said get on up boy. So we, yeah, just add the one thing to what he, what he said. When we're on a particular topic, let's, let's focus that topic. Then we'll, we'll move through more effectively, probably more efficiently. It's, it's really what we're trying to do because you can and, and I'm a glutton for it. I can, we can go on for a week literally and not even slow down. So but if we just whatever topic, we're all just to try to stay within that bracket,

it will move to another one pretty quickly. What time we quit? At what time is it?

Oh yeah, great.

As for poor folks,

likely I can't

5:00 to 12:00 will give me a high sign in case I happen to get caught up in what I'm doing. OK, I appreciate it. I had, that's what they did at the International. You know, I was trying. I was just getting ready to start and that guy was over there.

So I, I respond to that

well, good session guys. When I finish the session sweating, I think, I think it's, it worked out pretty good. So I appreciate the engagement. I really like to see that

the old saying you get out of what you put in it is so true. Yeah. So

yeah,

I just want to know where the circle started when we stand up and do surrounding for it. Now I've heard I've heard Now I don't know if it's true or not. Some group in Texas, some Texans stood up and said why don't we all just hold my hand. So I confused the Lords prayer. Now I don't know if that's true and I would just like to know if you have your opinion or you know, all it is is an opinion. But I think like a lot of

relatively modern stuff started in treatment

is a part of what they do in Group therapy to get the trust and get the level of communication up. Chanting, same thing. Yeah, this, this, this same kind of stuff. I think most of that originated when we started getting a, an influx from that kind of a sort. Now I go to Texas an awful lot and they swore to me that they had never done anything to wrinkle the water, et cetera. I trust them because they'll shoot you if you don't.

I tell you what, what they know there's subtle ways to deal with stuff, but we we we in our group, we didn't much like it. If you read the promises and then are these executives probably didn't the Hallelujah course says we think, but we didn't like that, but we didn't want to create a brew hop, so we just took that part off the end of the promises had cut it off. It's really funny to watch people reading.

Didn't he have to call a business meeting? We just did it.

There's always a way to do stuff, you know?

Uh, what? It was

a booby trap.

I don't trust it. I bet he'll never bring me anything else.

Thank you, buddy. Yeah, I appreciate that, old man. Yeah, I don't. I don't know. Yeah, I'm not as big as I look.

Yeah, I think that's going to work great. Good deal buddy.

It's always trying to do it and I really appreciate that open interchange we do, but it really does kind of recap with the schedule the was trying to get into focus on on the big bug step type stuff we were working yesterday. Then we'll move into the other phases. I just kind of marked them out, you know, So we'll, we'll try to focus on, on the, on those particular areas. And

the

want to mention a little bit. We're talking about like the thing we read last night about, about David or what happened to him and about getting involved in the whole program. And we, we talked to a fair amount about that on, on the immense process and how critical that is, you know, and it's just a part of the deal, but a vitally important part of the deal and had a good effect. Brian and I had a good talk about about

the men's over a cup of coffee that I bought, by the way.

And so it is. It's a it's a tremendously important part of the program. The

let me run that down to you just just just because I didn't do it there. I, you know, yesterday that, yeah, I told you that I was institutionalized because of doing a thing that God knows Alcoholics do every day around around the world. And that's causing folks to die, you know, just by the stupid thing of driving. And I'm drunk. And, you know, that was a kind of thing. I I, I just walk you through that just kind of kind of illustrate how it can work if you really try to do

laid out in trying to really try to practice program. You know, I was, obviously, I don't know if it's obvious or not, but I was tremendously

shattered. I mean, I simply really, really could not handle it very well. But even as just as a human being, even as a drunk, I knew that I needed to make some kind of gesture to the families that were left. It was two young people, two different families, and I knew I needed to make amends. And I had some of the guys. St. people are funny people.

They robbed you one day, but they'll lay down,

lay down for you the next day. And so I had some guys that came in from the street just to come about and see me. And I asked one one of them to contact the families for me and ask if they would be willing to hear from me. Both families quite understandably said no. That was very understandable. And so now that was before I ever heard of a, A just as a human being. I did that and but they said no. So that closes the deal,

you know, just like it says in the immense part in the book that we don't we don't relieve our pain at somebody else's expense and we can't force the issue, the people that are not ready to accommodate it. And so I had to respect that, but that doesn't make it go away. And so when I got into program started hearing about immense my God, I list didn't listen hungrily to everything I heard, tried about everything I heard that made any sense at all. And

you have a certain amount I could do directly to the victims in terms of your praying with their image in mind, writing to them. You know,

a number of things like that also made-up. I don't mess with the steps. It must at all. But I on the eighth step, I I added something to a step and that's unusual. But where it says we make a list of people who've harmed him but and became willing to make amends them off behind willing. I put the word opportunity and added that

as a part of the of my prayer was for willingness and opportunity.

Now I promise you I never did anything to make it happen. Absolutely nothing. Yeah, I continue with the direct. I made-up my mind to do indirect amends to to them give that you're the book refers to indirect amends and you can do it. Sometimes you can't make like a victim in something like that. You can't make direct men. So make the indirect and I'll just finish that part with.

It's amazing that accident happened on the 3rd of May of 56.

You could not believe the number of things that have happened on the 3rd of May that were absolutely, undeniably, directly related to what happened.

And you know, I spoke to 5000 young people in one day, just about the age of the ones that died in that accident. And then I spoke about the drunk driving and the hazards and stuff like this and about alcoholism.

And I didn't plan that, you know, do two groups of 2500. I planned none of it whatsoever.

I did a, I did a televised interview on the, the public television. The thing that yeah, I did a televised interview. That fellow told me that the anonymity would be absolutely guaranteed, you know, because I mean, I didn't mind saying to the world, but I really, really believe that anonymity and the value of not only to me, but to the fellowship. And and so

he promised he'd be an anonymous change my voice,

use that. I call it Rubik's Cube thing where they put the colors there and they kind of move. He said nobody will be able to identify you. And he didn't know Alcoholics. I I swear that thing. Several months later, I got a call from a woman in North Dakota and she said, said, Tom, did you make a movie? I said, I said, have you lost your mind? Of course I didn't make a move. What are you talking about?

And she said, well, I saw this thing. And then it dawned on me. She said I saw this on public time. I said, yeah,

yeah, I know what you're talking about. And I did. And I said, well, how did you know it was me? There was supposed to be nothing identifiable, she said. I recognized your nose,

our girl. Is it that bad? She said. It was pretty bad,

but I mean, that was just one of many, you know, and just on and on and on with so many things that have come up spontaneously on 3rd and I've never planned a single one. Everything that happens continues to

so the indirect minutes, and I'll let you know a little secret. It's part of what I'm doing here. Yeah, I don't have zeal, but 10 times that of an average man just because I'm a dedicated idiot. They're direct demands associated. You'd be amazed at how many people I meet going around all over the place that have done something like I did and quote, got away with it

without exception of the most tortured people

that I've ever seen. And just the opportunity to deal with it and who knows, you know, it, it could be an influencing factor to some people. So it's a part of of the indirect, not a guilt trip, but it's just a part of the indirect.

The real question was the families though. And because the families were they had already said, we don't want to hear from this fellow. And so I put that willing in there and prayed that way. Never knew if anything would happen. And so couple years after I was out something like that, I got a phone call from an attorney in Flint, MI and identified himself. And he said, I'm representing the families that that that in that accident you had here. And

he said they have entered a lawsuit

based on the notion that what happened wasn't really your fault, that that young folks are trying to cross the street and they jump back to avoid another vehicle jumped into mine. Well, get a natural human reaction. I thought, oh, my God, you have just like, like I'm getting a sort of a pardon, you know, in that thing and it but that didn't last two seconds. And I thought, my God, that doesn't change anything. You can't mitigate some guy driving blind drunk

down to Main Street of a city.

There is no mitigation for that. I mean, I just then speaks for itself. And and so so he told me they were going to do that. He said they they think they would like to have you come up and testify to trial. And I said, well, I'll be happy to do anything, but I've got nothing to offer. You know, I mean, my testimony at my own trial, I couldn't testify there other than just say I'm sorry, I don't know.

And that's the hell of blackouts is I don't know. And so I said I'd be glad to come. They said, well, he said they think it'll help. And I said, OK, I'll be there. So I went. Are you talking about an eerie feeling

for 1000 reasons, but but one I walked in the hearing was to be held in the same courtroom where I was convicted and and boy, you you talk about an eerie feeling. It's like walking across your own grave almost and walking back in there sat down and they had a section for the families and then I sat in the same section but separated. You know you don't normally you don't connect a Fender and offended that it just isn't done

and and so

they went through the trial. I testified exactly like I knew it'd be. I'm sorry, I don't know. I'm doing thing can't help but I don't know and

I know this is not supposed to happen, but I prayed for opportunity. I got it and I didn't know it. I'm sitting there. I had no earthly idea I'd be able to do anything. Families and I hadn't spoken to each other. And the bailiff came over the guy that charged her to court, the decorum of the court. He came over it and he said some of the families and then gestured and they went down the hall. So I figured it's a potty break. And so they they went down the hall and then he came back and came over to me

and extended the same courtesy I thought. And he said, said come on down. So I went down. I tell you, if if you pray for opportunity, you better be prepared because you never know what is going to happen. I went down that hall and thinking I'm going to the John and he came to a door. He opened it and gestured. And so I looked in. It doesn't take long to read a scene. I stepped in

and all at once I saw the two families, one in one corner with one one across on the other side. They weren't together, they were separate.

And the minute I saw it, man, it looked like the whole world was a fake flash boat. Just the total shock, you know, of that. And my first thought was run, run. It was not step in, I promise you that. And I said, well to myself, looks like your prayers have been answered buddy.

Move in or boogie. And so I went in, went over to the first family, asked if I could speak to him. And I swear to God I'll never understand it, but they welcome me as if I were family.

I mean, absolutely, just like families. You're warm, loving, forgiving. I wasn't asking for anything except for them to let me talk to them. And so they were. Absolutely

unbelievable. You know, we hugged each other and all this kind of stuff. And I thought, man alive, this is something, and then went over to the other family and they were, they were in Eastern European family for first generation immigrant from somewhere in the Eastern Bloc.

And so I went over and they were paternal group, you know, and so they were in a circle and, and when they saw me coming across the floor, they, they, they knew what I was doing, I guess. And they figured out the father stepped out of circle and met me, who shook hands and and, and, and, and I said, would it be possible to speak to the family? And he went back into the family group

to ask, I guess. And they they, they did a group conscious and, and he came back out and he said,

no, you can't speak to family. Speak to me.

I said OK. And then I just said to him everything I wanted to say. It's very courteous, very considerate. And we got through, He said.

We can't forgive. And I wasn't asking for forgiveness. I'm just asking to, to, to let me, let me speak to you. But nonetheless, that's what he said. And we can't forgive. Please don't bother us again.

Well, that's been many years and and I've never had another opportunity. I met who knows, may someday, you know, all of us are getting pretty old. But if if it comes, I'll be ready. If not, you know then, then I will have done exactly what step says. We make the amends wherever possible,

except when it would do so it injured them or others. And that doesn't include me that, that, that includes them. And, and so I've, I've had to leave it there and, and so, but it takes care of, of everything I can do without violating the principle and, and taking advantage of somebody. So I, I, I share that because I know that I'm not the only guy

that's carried around heavy duty guilty that that where men are needed.

And I think I made it pretty clear in a couple of those cases I mentioned that it is my fervent belief that freedom never comes. As long as we're dragging those things that we wish we could forget, I don't think it ever comes. Yeah, because you'll always have that little thing to kind of eat your lunch on a regular basis. And and so I do call those the freedom steps because I think that's exactly what they what they lead to and being able to

to move on to getting the business to live in underway.

The

I'm just going to skip through some of that now. And any on any of these things that are dealing with any questions, just give me a signal and we'll stop. Let's just stick to the topic on that. And that was about the immense process to anybody who wants to comment or question anything on that thing have added. Yeah,

thing about till the opportunity arrives.

How many?

Well, that that one only came to one time.

Oh, it was in probably

your period from the accident till the time you took your step till the time you remain the step. It would have probably been

duck.

I didn't have to now. I didn't have to. You know, they'd already said don't come to us. They'd always say you have to honor that. And so I didn't. I just prayed for hey,

well, I prayed for opportunity. I could explain their behavior, but they, both families agreed to see me and that opportunity. They didn't plan that trial just so I could be there, but it was a marvelous opportunity. It was a marvelous opportunity. How many years was it, Tom? After like the accident was in 56. When was this lawsuit trial, do you remember? Yeah. It would have been probably the early 60s. Yeah. Yeah. Because I was. I couldn't do anything while I was locked up directly

and I was able to do stuff indirectly. But yeah, it was, I was, I was out. I, I think I was probably two years on the street when that came up, a year and a half to two years. But what you're saying is time makes a difference.

Time makes a difference. I was ready as soon as I read the immense steps. I was ready then, but but the situation was not ready then.

Yeah. And then you waited for the opportunity to write, but in between there was a gap, a big gap, right. So what I'm asking you is like, time makes the difference. So is it just?

Well, I could have made, I could have made a mess before I got in a headache, but it would have been crude and ugly. I would have known how to do it.

Hey,

Yeah. It it would have been, it would have been modeling emotional stuff. It would not have been clear communication. You know, what program prepared me to be able to make honest amends and not impose more grief on people. And so that I think that was a value of the time. But do you

steps lead us to the process? I was prepared to make amends in a healthy way. And so when that opportunity came, it I had no hesitation whatsoever. Yeah, you're just a matter. It was an automatic thing. Just like I mentioned in the earlier session. Each step prepares us for the next step. And you're like 6 gets us ready to get rid of the defect. 7 guides the state and 9:00. And I think that's God's answer to the prayer, you know? And then so it just falls in.

Sorry.

Yeah. Yeah. It took a while. They took a while. Yeah.

Yeah. And it was. It was just a matter of the timing. I mean, you can't yank around a family that's been into that much grief. You can't yank them around. And I don't think anybody set that up just so I can make amends. Well, maybe they did, but it wasn't anybody in the court. It was my boss. Yeah. My boss is taking me a lot of places I was supposed to go. Yeah, including there.

There's tremendous, obviously very valuable kind of a thing. And yeah, that

just like I mentioned, people I run into who've never dealt with that thing, it doesn't go away. I guarantee you that doesn't go away. And those are tortured folk. Tortured folk that

anybody else? Anything on it? Yeah,

say it again now,

creations and understanding in the program 30 years ago as you do today.

I think I did, I really do. But, well, you got to realize where I started from. I wasn't an active businessman or a hard working somebody. I'm dead meat. I'm done. And so I had, I didn't have any impatience much, you know, that everything for me was beyond my imagination. So I I I didn't have a lot of trouble with impatience. I really want the, you know, when I was serving my time. I mean, I hated it,

but I've made every day count. It was worthwhile. Every day was a rewarding day for me, even in those conditions and and so

I never have had a

I got a lot of patience with me. I'm not always patient with other people.

But, but no, that it never was. It never was a huge problem to me.

And something like making amends. I was well aware that I had to wait for the time and I wasn't sure it would ever happen. I was resigned to that. I was not sure it would ever happen. And when it did, man, I'm telling you that, that that was just unbelievable. But it happened exactly the way I just told you exactly that way. It's a good thing I wasn't planning the recovery,

I doubt I would have would have made the plan like it turned out to be, but that it introduced me to life I didn't even know existed.

But all that's part of it.

I was talking to Brian. If we were talking about immense that, you know, that was tough emotionally to tough to deal with that. But some of the most difficult demands that I had to make were to my own family. That you that my family. Just like my mother, for example, she thought I was a fine boy. Yeah. She never believed I was an alcoholic. I was. I was living in her house ever got out. One day she was on the phone with a neighbor.

No, in a room with a neighbor, not on the phone.

And they were talking about surprise children and and the woman said, why does your son travel so much?

And mother said, oh, he's in that a a thing. And she said, oh, is he an alcoholic? My most Oh no, no.

And he was always a good boy.

What are you going to do with bothers?

Yeah, it's it's amazing. It's amazing. But that was hard. I almost had to hold her. I was telling him I almost had to hold her and make amends.

Yeah, I had a picture of there. There's a Canadian photograph that

Niagara Falls or the Queen or somebody, and I was admiring it in her house and I said, you know, that's a beautiful picture, she said you ought to like it. You sent it to me.

I said got to be kidding. I had no clue. And one day she's telling me how, how, how it wasn't that bad. I was really pretty guy. She said, you know, you sent me that money for all for all those years. And

I said, what are you talking about? So when I'd gone in the military, I must have been drunk. I signed over what they called an allotment to her. She got to check every month that it is often defending my country, laying flat on my back

and my first instinct. Old habits die hard. My first instinct was, well give me the money,

but I didn't tell him to fix you.

That is tricky, but it would have been stuffing. But it's amazing the, the, the difficulty people have accepted

because The thing is was telling him it's like you're, you're having a sword fight with somebody with no sword. You know, they have no program. I have a program so that the, the, the responsibility is overwhelmingly in my court, not them. And so I've got to be patient and help them understand the process. They don't understand it. It is a foreign thing. They're not used to that. They used to Get Me Out of jail,

you know, and so very, very had more difficulty with them.

I tell you one other, but it was a messy that that had a lot of me and me

early on when I first hit the street. I'd had a boss one time that not one of the nicest guys I met in my life, and I ripped him off for a little bit of money. Wasn't much. Yeah, it did. I mean, he had a lot of money and I didn't. So it seemed just to me to take the money. And so he was on my mind and he was, he was high on my list of people I needed to see just 'cause he was such a good guy.

And so when I got out, it wasn't a whole lot of money, but I didn't have that much. So I borrowed the money.

That is not good business, you know, unless you're talking about immense. I borrowed the money to make amends for taking the money. And

so I went over there to the place where I worked, and I thought, sure, everybody would just jump on me. A minute of walking doors. So when you scoundrel, you finally have gotten justice or something. You know, I walked in. The old secretary been there longer than the building and she didn't know me.

Probably looked different too.

I said I'd like to see Mr. Brown if I could. That's the owner. She said, well, he's very busy. And I said, well, I understand that, but I need to see him. It's about some money I owe him. And she said, well, that's the magic word, you know. So she said, I'll see if he can see you. So he went in and he agreed to see me and I went in and he was really a nice man. There's one reason he was really nice man.

And so I went in and he was sitting behind a huge desk and he was a small guy, but he said behind that little desk,

glasses on it, he didn't know me either,

carried it for years and he's sleeping every night. So anyway, I went in and told him what I'm doing and he didn't catch on at first, you know? And so I told him it's about some money, money I owe you that I ripped off when I was here. And he had absolutely no memory of any of it. And he said, well, look, I appreciate you coming in, but I can't take that money. I said what do you mean can't take it as yours?

That's not my and, he said.

Screw up my bookkeeping.

And I said, I'm sorry about that, but it screwed up my life and I got to do something.

I hadn't told him you're the preliminaries of it. I told, I said, let me tell you really why I'm doing this now. And I just sort of like going in man to man. So I told him what I was doing. He reached up to his glasses off. He said, well, I'll be dark. Said I've been in business 40 years. I have never seen anything like this. I said me either,

yes, but but we hit it off. And from then on, every time I'd go to Charlotte where that business was.

He had a certain place he liked to eat lunch and I would always go in there if I was in Charlotte. And if he would see me,

excuse me, he would always come across the dining room and say, greet me and say, how's that work of yours going? You know, that was his code. That's great. That's the amenity and the healing, the reunion, you know, the cleanness that comes. Absolutely. I think vital stuff.

I'm sorry, but

hold this haggard, but I, I dwell on that a little bit because it is and I appreciate you asking that. That is really a, to me, a very vital part of recovery. There's a lot of things that ain't. I was at the conference somewhere down in Texas and I, I saw a beautiful Jaguar sitting over there and, and what is a handsome rod that would have took a look on the front of the, the vanity plate. It said step 9.

I said, oh, I got to meet this boy.

So I found him and I said, boy, that's a great Jag. You got that. Tell me about that plate. He said, well, you said I've bought that car and paid for it, and that's amends to me.

I said, well, it's a good trial, buddy, but it has nothing to do with amends. You know what? Don't dignify with that. You just bought a car for God's sakes. You know, don't crash it that way.

So everybody else, anything on on the men that Yeah, right.

Take the money or you didn't take it? He took it. Oh yeah, not Jaguar guy. Yes,

that making amends is for my benefit, not for the benefit of the people that I did the harm to, other than repairing the damage when I can for those people. I don't think the fellowship stresses enough the idea that one, the promises come midway through making the amendments, and two, that it's mostly freedom from fear of retaliation from the people that we harm, and that's the freedom that we get. So it's for my benefit if I can keep that in mind when I'm making the amends. I'm not asking for forgiveness. I'm not asking them to respond

way, and I'm not reinforcing the resentment when they don't. Yeah, yeah, very, very, very good point. It is. It's it's that I'm the winner. I'm the winner. You know, whether the other person accepts it, rejects it or whatever, I'm the winner. But I make that it's about the book, makes it very clear. It's about cleaning my side of the street. And the response of the other person has nothing to do with the value of it.

And they make you make it fun or or or not, but but the otherwise, they don't affect the quality of their men.

I learned that for doggone sure, if you're sitting on some and not moving on them, for God's sake, move on there. It is absolutely the key to me to what freedom's all about. Yeah, Mark,

something personal,

what's happened to me in the last four June,

June 16th, I think it goes, 2006, I was in motor vehicle accident. I was hit by a drunk driver. He was 20 years old. I had 14 practice. I was in a coma 14 days and traumatic brain injury. You know, it took me 6 months, three months and four. My weight bearing didn't try to get up and walk.

I'm going through a stuff five years later, 4 1/2 years later and part of it was is to do with my wife or ex-wife soon to be ex-wife. I don't know which one right

I will. There was involved with me, Murray was involved with me, Jacket was in court with me.

There were a whole bunch of people. She dragged me to the court system. She's asked me to do family, parenting, this, that, the other

right, and I'm still going through the process. I have one counselor who keeps telling me that I need to move forward,

right? But I have Jacket on the other hand, since

because last year I went to retreat at the participation retreat and the topic was the spirituality in the steps. And I looked at Jack and I said, Jack, can you tell me where there's a spirituality in the steps fit with me here? You know, Melred was facilitating it with Mari, right? And

he said mine, you're going through the crossfire right now,

right? And basically all you can do is very low,

right? A few months ago we were involved again Supreme Court and she's put a whole half $1,000,000

right when I had the time, she said that I did the tie accident.

Nice and beastly glam on my way better indeed. I'm hoping it branches and she's asked me to carry furniture up the stairs the 14 practice. So I still have issues about that stuff right? And I kind of bitten into it like a Pitbull,

you know, and

when you talk about, you know, forgiveness and stuff like that, right? You know, there's a process to that is the the acceptance of the situation was when the letting go of. So in fact, I was talking to my friend Antonio and Bill and other guys here and asking them what, what did I because I don't even knows me for what, 15 years? And he's seen the dynamics, right? He's been like a true brother to me,

you know, through throughout this accident. He's one guy that has

by me stop pick me up, right. So where do I stand here, right? I want to talk to you about this on a one to one basis.

You know,

how do I get over this? Yeah,

let's go into that. Let's go. Great. Thanks.

Let's go into that one-on-one. That's kind of a tricky trick, yeah.

Sounds like this

that that sounds like left-handed amazed to me.

I never will.

Yeah. You get someone that had passed away and you had to make an amends. And you tell that person all that person is as a personality and person would sit down and you can make a man say it was like your grandmother. You know, when your grandmothers and your grandmother want to make amends to her, you get a woman that would act out like your grandmother and you could make the amends to her. And I heard that on a date in

Utah. Yeah, that's it's there's a tricky deal that would you got to go.

I'll just tell you one real quick thing about that the not directly that I sponsor a guy who's about 25 years. So and before he came in before he right after he came in a a, he lives out in the country and a little little small child son of his was riding one of those big wheel type things, you know, and there's very little traffic there to child rode the thing out on the on the road and a guy came around the curve and struck the shot and killed him.

And now it was a tragic accident, but it was no criminality. There was number arrest. There was nothing. But my guy simply will not let go. And my hunch is, and I've not been able to find out. I think the fellow driving the car was just a good old country boy who didn't know what to do. And there was no criminal action whatsoever. There's none whatever. And so, my God, I've told him, it's kind of like we talked about

country war probably has no program of any kind. So I told him, I said, why don't you take the initiative? You know, this guy came into a restaurant where he and his my guy and his wife were eating. He got sick and had to leave the restaurant. It's that, that that bad. And I said, why don't you take the initiative and you reach out to him because he probably doesn't know how, but I can't get him to do it. But he lives with that every day.

Every day affects everything about it. 25 years sober, he's not a dumb man at all. But I cannot get him to do that. So it really is a tough deal to deal with. But you got that kind of circuitous thing. Yeah. Tough stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Mark. Yeah. Tom I I had a person make immense to make and I have

a tough time. Yeah,

my daughter died in that

accident up in Hyder, Alaska. Turner, Frank

and they, we still had their life in Kakaton

and they

there were dead. And moving to the tremendous system, we were dead.

Thank you. And

I went back up 10 years later

for the anniversary.

My family went up

and as I stand in there one day, that guy come over to me, say

are you Mr. Grant? And I said yes. He said I have to make amends to He's not in programming.

I don't want to recommend you,

he said. I remember today your daughter friend died.

Said I was going fishing that day

and I was in a hurry,

he said. I heard the screaming,

but he said I didn't stop.

You know if he could have saved your mother or not? I

no idea,

but I think that he made me more of a victim

by telling me that and then himself. I take that you know I have AI wish I'd never known that I wasn't better on board. You know, he relieved himself. But I I got I'm very hurt over.

Yeah, that was clearly a lose, lose situation. Sure was.

Yeah. That's unfortunate that. But if people are not equipped and some people just don't know how to do it, Yeah, well, they don't know. Very few people know how to do it unless we hear something like we are. Yeah. But that's I can fully understand what you're talking about, that's for sure.

We better move Brian real quick. Yeah, I am sorry about that Brian. We've been make a quick we're going to have to move on that none, OK,

the promises is it that you get the promises due to step nine? We talk about promises.

Well, it says when we get halfway through, we don't have to do it, just get halfway through. Yeah, 8-9. If we've been painstaking about this phase of our development, that's what it is. It's just falling up on 8-9. We'll be amazed before we have to. And so, you know, just to just make it a start, you know, it, it, it starts to deliver. Yeah. That's not one fell swoop, you know, But I I guarantee you every promise in there resonates in my life today.

And so it happens, but it just is a slow process. You know, some of them you can't fix. You just gotta just gotta you live with it. You know, there's nothing to do about it. So yeah, they're what? Well, that's that's really something else. If that's this would be,

I do like that area because I think that truly is a freedom thing. An awful lot of people stop at this and and don't get around to making a mess and miss the freedom.

How

I think I'm going to save this. I've got one here I had picked out. I'm going to save it till in the morning it will finish up. I want to finish up with a flurry. I never did finish to tell you what your homework was, but I'll I'll go over to the board to get the

hope for

Bill wrote this

hope for something. Oh it relapses. And let me just make it to some brief comments about that whole business of of real. We call them slips in the old days, but relapses with more fancy term. But it's what you're talking about. Getting drunk is what it's about. Yeah, you can call it whatever you want to. That's what it is. And

that we do have, you know, that was defeated. What looks to me like just from observation is that the more you slip, the more you slip

and it's just sort of a self, self perpetuating kind of a thing that happens. I've never done it, but I work with God knows how many people who have and it's tough to come back.

Let me, let me frame it with something that I'd sure like to share with you that