The 22nd Annual Mens Fall Retreat in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

OK, and just before we get rolling, a couple of items came up. Apparently there's a white Cadillac or Lincoln down the lane and the passenger window was wide open, so a bunch of rain was getting in. And also too, we found this key during breakfast. And before we get started, I just thought I'd quickly review the topics that were suggested last night, which are how can newcomers get involved in the steps, relationships and Unity? Tradition 10

amends, structure of groups getting through dark times, the pace of the steps, how to keep AA interesting overtime recovered or not, hope for chronic relapses and evolution of outside issues, and to speak on this and other matters. Tommy Alvester.

We should be able to get through all of that before lunchtime. The break built in,

particularly with rain outside here. Good to see everybody. I hope you had a good night. That I slept in. I almost made it to 4:00 and then I had to get up. I don't know. I've had an urgent need to get on my feet. It's good to see everybody. Good breakfast, eh? Folks know what to do. I wanted to get out of this anyway. The

what I did was

took what what Bill gave me then I just added a few little doodles to it. Now anyway you want to try to do is say we're going to goof off this afternoon is as focused primarily on on the things related to the book and getting started and to do the step process and group. These are things that that help somebody get into the program and stay and we'll deal with that

primarily and then move into

the unity things this evening and visit traditions a bit in particular how they relate personally and some of the relationships stuff we were talking about, which is what traditions are about. So we deal with that this evening, and then tomorrow

I want to deal with with what brings it alive. Yeah. What is it that makes the program really grow and and become more satisfying

rather than old hat? What is it that keeps old members of young? Yeah, that's I've, I've been here a long time. And that I am, I think I am as probably as active now as I've ever been in my life. It couldn't be much more active and I wouldn't want it any other way. Yeah, I've delivered me from sitting around staring at my navel and and reading lofty books about some old dude has been dead 200 years,

so I don't want to get into that just yet. I'll save that for the old folks and

I'll stick with this. So I'm and I'm active. Not because I'm a dedicated idiot. That helps, but that's that's not the real reason

I'm active. Because what I found is just what I said last night, that that that pink cloud honeymoon stage lasts as long as we do the things that make it happen.

And the minute we quit, it quits. And so that's why I do it, because I'm greedy. I want all I can get. And yeah, how do we get people started in that? I had,

I noted a few things that I just kind of highlighted to visit. And you know, of course you naturally, I'm going to put stuff in the context of my own experience rather than philosophize and tell you what I read somewhere, unless it's in the book.

And I'm, I just kind of go through these

and it won't be an orderly process, but it'd be try to stick to the things that folks were concerned about getting a little bit more deeply involved in. And again, now by by all means, feel free to join in. You don't have to go to a mic anywhere. If you'll just speak up. Am I telling the truth? If you just speak up and pick up, OK, no problem. All right, so, so by all means join in and don't let it be

a speaker meeting.

I will if you let me, but but don't don't let me it's it'll be it'd be better for everybody concerned.

Now I'm just going to try to kind of track off on on these things. How can make newcomers get involved in the steps and and God knows there are tons of ways and you probably know as many as me.

The

probably the most important work, most effective work I've ever done in in in the fellowship has been in taking people through the book, taking people through the steps. I I first got into doing something like that. As a matter of fact, in Canada the way back, I made my first trip at into Canada

A in in 65. And along in that period there was a group in Winnipeg

that led by

a wonderful name for an alcoholic. His name was Cheater Mac Cheater. And he's a great, great a, a member and him and a couple other guys that started a group called the Golden Slippers. They wanted to work with people who just didn't seem to make it as they started doing the steps in sequence. Yeah. And so they so they would they would they build their whole program around that and then they moved it into a little more organized approach of taking people through an orderly process. And first time ever saw that

was I knew Mac, I met, I came to know Mac, but that moved over to Prince Albert and I not only found my wife there, but I found the process there and they they had a name for it that wasn't probably wasn't conference approved, but it was alright. I mean, it's what they hung on it. Prince Albert people that way. They just don't do it like the rest of the world. They got their own method for doing stuff and

that. That's the first time I read it. Yeah,

yeah, yeah, yeah. No, Valko at you know what that little acronym stood for?

Yeah, yeah, Novice alcoholic. And it was for new new friend for new members. So that's what it was designed for. And it was designed to be a kind of a, a, a dogmatic approach. You know, you go right hardline down that thing. Duty action rather than sort of nurturing process is more of a real straight hard on cannibal kind of a process. And the guy that was the real driving force in that thing was my grand sponsor,

a guy named Elmer. And

he was about as diplomatic as a pit bull. That boy was a real trade wreck of a guy that but heck of God. So that's where I got in touch with it first, got acquainted with a process, you know, a well laid out process and and it it worked. I've never done anything that didn't work for somebody nor anything that worked for everybody. Yeah. So I've done it a lot of different ways. At Novalco Approach was one of them. Yeah, I used that not only in in my Home group, but

in prisons that where I did stuff. And so it's a good process, well designed. I've done it Marine Corps style, you know, bring you 12 and 12 and either do it or die. You know, it's about what it was. Do it. Bring the evidence in your pocket next week. You know, if you didn't have it, don't come. And so sort of Marine Corps stop and all of it works somewhat. And, but over the years, you you might have had some of the same kind of angst I did about stuff.

I, I grew, grew and grew and

still still continue to grow more and more concern about the tremendous turnover in Alcoholics Anonymous. It looked to me like we had more people leaving than coming in, or at least even and, and I think losing ground really. And so I was concerned about that. And I don't know about you, but when I see that happening, I don't want to demonize the guy coming in the door.

I don't expect much out of the guy coming in the door. He's earned his way in that door by beating his life

almost out of himself. And he's somebody who is crude in every way in the world. He knows how to screw up. So the last thing he needs is me for the diet of me, for me to diagnose him as being a guy that's probably not going to make it. And so rather than that, you know, when I look at a problem like that, I don't want to demonize what I see. I want to see if I can understand what I see. What is it that that causes folks to make a revolving door out of Alcoholics Anonymous? What is it that makes people unable to catch on to it?

And and so I just got thinking that it was the quality of our introduction that was that we could do something about we're not going to do anything about who walks in the door, but in terms of what we do with them. And so I was looking, looking for all, I tried a lot of things and nothing that really worked to, to think you want to put headlines on,

but it did some good. And I started looking around for something that that I thought might work better. And I was, I was in a conference somewhere and a good buddy of mine, a long time buddy. I used to see him a lot, you know, just traveling around and, and he was a good guy, real good, solid, one of the most healing guys I've ever known. And so we were talking about this kind of stuff and he said, well, I do something about it. He, he not a very aggressive guy. He said, well, I

somebody, I said, tell me about it, what you do. She told me very gently and, you know, like he's apologizing for it and he described it to me. And I'm kind of a visual guy. Yeah, I hear words. Well, I'm getting hearing aids next week only because I got to shut my wife up and she got, she thinks I'm hard to hear it. I'm not going to tell her that. She just says stuff I don't want to hear. I just picked up

I'm I'm going to take those stupid ears things next week.

Yeah, if you're single,

go for it.

No, no, she's OK.

But anyway, this guy, this guy was telling me what it did. I said show me, show me. So we literally just dragged up some chairs in the quarter of a in a hotel, about 1/2 a dozen over there. The guy got the book he started, opened it up, started reading something. He read just a few lines and said did anybody identify or relate to that?

And of course about everybody did

and, and he said, well, this is what we do. You know, what we do is go through the book and the question is never, never, what do you think of that? It is never what your opinion about that because it's not an educational process, it's an action process. And the whole question is, do you identify? Identify means you've done it.

Relate means you would have if you'd have thought of it, but,

and a lot of us just don't, can't think of all the cakey stuff to do. And but the minute I heard that I said, my God, that makes sense. And so I went back and I said, I think we'll try that. And so I just got a few guys and I live in a little small town here. It's about, it's about the size of a shopping center in Vancouver, but it's a little time and I got some folks that I sponsored said

going to do this big book workshop. Not not a study. Big difference study in a workshop.

Study means you'll learn it,

workshop means you're going to do it. And so we approach it that way, that we're going to do a workshop and feel free to bring it. If you want to do it, feel free to bring anybody you like. Well, that's a nice, generous deal and I felt good about it. I was watching the door when we started out first night

and there was a woman came in the door

that is flat. Didn't like, I mean, I didn't like it. She's a bad Yankee. God knows she's bad Yankee

and full blooded. She's an Ivy leg girl, Ivy League product and very proud of it and let you know in heartbeat she was an atheist. And I mean a car toting, flag waving, footstomping atheist. And I thought she came to a primarily to debate that with me because that seemed to be what she wanted to do Every time I saw her. And she came in and I said, Oh my God, not her.

I'm going to spend the next year in debate with this gown

and, and she didn't like me a bit either that. And so we started out and you know, a funny thing, most of us are sitting where we sat the last time we were in this room. There's just an instinct. It was a homing instinct. I guess we'll tend to go where we go. So she buddied up with two other aggravated cases and and they were

sitting, sitting together. And so I'm thinking there's trouble city, you know, I'll have to be careful about how I had electorate.

So we started out and it went that way just to start with. It was not an open discussion. Yeah, it was a leader controlled deal. Leader does all the reading. God, that's why my voice is going bad. Leader. Leader does all the leading, does all of the leadership. And it's not some of just freewheeling, you know that you get get invited and and and so it's a process of pretty thoughtful and not chaotic.

And so we started going along

and we're doing pretty well. And I noticed this is a slow process, very, very labor intensive process. And I noticed that that my little oddball row back there seemed to be mellowing a little bit. And I, I couldn't quite believe it. So I didn't buy it 100%, but they just seem like they were really settling in and acting like people. And

so we, we, we went along and

now I'm a I'm a great believer in spontaneity. I just love to see things just happen

and spontaneity is wonderful if it's well planned.

It just, it just works a whole lot better, a whole lot better if you plant it well. And so we just

one night spontaneously ended the session on the third step prayer. It's just just so happened with careful, careful, careful preparation that. And so we got to it.

I said we're going to do a little different tonight. We're not going to do to our Father, We're going to do the third step prayer. And you got three options. One, you can join hands, get out and do it with us. Or two, you can hold our hands while we do it. Or three, you can stand back and watch us do it.

I won't tell you what she told me later, but she she told me that she said out loud, but she under her breath, she called me every time. I never been cussed that bad in the bar, you know, And she was flat landed on me. And now she had a dilemma,

spontaneous dilemma. And

she, she said when you got through telling me what my ancestry was, she had to decide. And so she stepped in a circle. I wouldn't have bet on that, stepped in the circle and she did to pray with us. And I would not have believed if anybody had told me or predicted it, I wouldn't have believed it. But that gal was changed. And I don't mean burning Bush and changed immediately,

but she almost at once started to soften, started to hear, started to engage and not be the resident critic that was standing back reacting. She started getting involved in the process. And if anybody had told me, I wouldn't have believed it. She became my alternate. If I had to be gone, I'd made a commitment. I would be there every Tuesday night if I possibly could,

and everybody else made the same commitment. And but there was, but there were times when I just simply had to honor a commitment somewhere. And

so she was my backup.

I would have trusted her with my dog. And here I'm trusting her with all, all, all the folks out you, including my sponsorship life. And she did a great job, great job. And if, if nothing ever happened beyond that, it would have been worth everything we did. Because that gal right today, she's sober many, many years and she's probably the warmest, most gracious,

effective woman member in my area.

And, and, and if I have anything going, if I've got a woman coming into town from somewhere and she's going to get in touch or she got a, a crisis with a woman, that's my go to person. If I, if I never seen anything else, it would have been worth it to me. Because what it showed was that there was something powerful about the group phenomenon. There's something powerful about a group sort of working together.

Very frankly, if if I had plenty of time

and and was in position to do it individually, I would not.

I would prefer group and I prefer group because there's a dynamic in a group that's not there when it's individual.

There's also the accountability factor with other people doing the same thing. But but when you get through where you going to spend your lives in groups, not with, with some, some mentor or, or, you know, great leader, you know, if you're going to be spending it in groups. So I look at that as preparation of learning how to be effective in a group and how to do good work in a group.

Was it effective? I'll tell you this,

I had 15 people finished that group and we only counted it if they attended every session.

We had 50 to 15 people who completed every session. All 15 are sober today. And that's been many years. That's that's probably been close to 20 years ago. And, and they all did people that have really developed into good, strong members. Well, no, I didn't need to do any analysis. I knew that we had a winner here. There's something about that intensive work with other Alcoholics in a group session that that is is truly effective.

Only problem with it it is it really is labor intensive and it takes a long time that typically it would run anywhere from a year to a year and a half depending on the size of group.

And

18 months was, was the record breaker. Everybody's telling it was longer, but it wasn't. I actually counted it. It was, they just felt like it was longer. So great thing. Yeah. And, and all of these folks that have done well, they've gone on it. It's a it's a bit more labor intensive than I like and it's a bit more time consuming than I like. And so I guess I'm my my mission to life is to drain Canada of all its talent. And

so I'm looking at one right now, trying it out that a buddy of mine over in Saskatchewan

modified a version of it that you can. It's a it's a little more hard hitting.

It's designed to put the weight on the person rather than the leader carrying the the burden of responsibility is designed to do that. And and that I like about it because the more you invest, the more you get it. And and so that I like that.

And so we've tried that a couple of times. Right now I'm just observing to see what the long term result is. Short term is good, but whether whether it's going to be a hold up and standard test, we'll see. Yeah,

yeah.

If,

if they happen to be there at the right time, we don't add anybody. Once it starts, that's the group.

Brought in this Home group or so forth. We would welcome an interior

steps. That's where I guess I wonder a question or concern if that's

a long time for someone who's looking for the relief of the

we have we've had a some minor dropout yeah that it typically will get some like you're talking about they're they're new or there have been revolving door types. We'll get some of those you you have some fallout. You know that that that that'll happen in that it's for not only with with newcomer type show but that that's going to happen. And so a lot of people not willing to pay the dues and when you make a commitment to be there every Tuesday night for a couple hours, that's a commitment and

don't miss you. You don't just hit and miss to do that. If you do, you destroy the process. So the it's not geared to newcomers, but it will handle newcomers. We've done it, for example, the shorter version, we've done its prisons and had good luck there. So we're fishing with that new one. Whether we're going to do that or not, I don't know, but I just want to be looking at.

And the other one I've been delighted with, but just the duration of it is, is, is is really daunting. And yeah,

speak up a little bit. Do you use just the big book for that session? Yeah, Yeah, just a big book.

We don't use a we don't, we don't use any other material than that. And it's not a regular meeting. It's not a part of a group. It's just a group of people. We meet in my home groups meeting place only because it's available. But the the, but the whole purpose is to go through the book and to and the book. The book is the program of recovery.

And so just to work with steps, just pull out the steps and use them kind of shortcuts, a lot of stuff.

And so I really like that thing of going through and not only do you get the program laid out in step, but you also get the program of a, a that surrounds the steps show that that grows out of the step. So I, I like that to have that, but we go straight look, we got the 100 flexible pages.

Not in the long version. Not in the long ones. You know where we go, we go through the leader leaves it. Not in that one.

We we do. And now I have I have some, some some people don't write well. And so I have some stuff though your formats for a fourth step that I'll give somebody that needs them, but it's not a just a handout. Here's everybody, here's a four step. Do this. It prefer that to have the more the more you put in it, the more ownership you have. So I like for people to get hold of what they are comfortable with. But I've got that available, you know, just in the long form.

In the short form

is not really a format so much ever will help a little bit with the short form electrical prison, You know, we'll give a format there just to sort of help them get through the hurdle of learning how to do it. So we'll do some of that though. But I really like to see the person invest a lot, you know, so that they have ownership and not just, you know, hand out and respond, you know, like a survey. I really like to see them do do a do a little more.

I'm a slave driver is what it gets.

Is there something that has to come from inside? Because I mean, if you, if you look at where the sides even in the big work, it says if they really want 50% of people will get it immediately, 25%. But soon

you did a little bit of research and then 25% it says,

you know, per se, right? I mean that I think there's a lot of people like come check it out. We come, you know, but they're not really investing.

Well, we'll find out. It will go along. I I tell you now, personally, I have real questions about motivating somebody. Yeah. I'm not sure you motivate anybody to do it. One minute. Yeah. Yeah. But it's a nice thought. But I'm not sure you pull it off. You know that. Hang on a minute. I'll be right to you.

The deed,

sorry,

Yeah, get open to it. I'm not sure about motivation.

That's like a pep rally, you know, that that's, it's a great thing to have. So I'm not going to give it to somebody. What what we do, what we do is take them through the step. Everybody's not going to make it. Most do very few dropouts. You get some. We had one guy dropped out and shot himself. Yeah, he just was, he was too far in. He just couldn't. He saw the rope, but he couldn't grab it.

Do you want to make? And so he gave up and it was a nice guy.

Yeah. But that's what happens. Just like we talked about last night, this illness goes deep that you don't do it with just cosmetic little stuff, you know, because you got to dig into and you got to pull it out of the gut. So it's, it's, it's, it's not a, a hard driving thing and what it is hard driving, but we have fun with it as well. You know, it's not just a grim death March, you know? And so we make it. We'll we'll goof around a little bit,

but but but bottom line is it's a serious process and and we want people who really want to do something

had not loaded up with people were trying to talk into buying a used car something you know that. And so we got other programs for that. Yeah. But well, that we we hold that line pretty, pretty straight on that thing. One second. Yeah,

you said you

behind leadership

that starts being that the

reverse that on to the

how do you critique that individuals,

I guess into a little deeper water than we swim in. It's like Bill as a leader in this meeting, he did his job and then went to the back row. That's what leaders do. They do their job and then hide, you know, so big. So so we don't you know, we we, we we don't we don't try to find you. Now we got a leader. One guy leads it all the way through, except you're the alternate like a gal I had. Yeah,

but doesn't that then the people that you're looking at to take ownership

come forward, wouldn't that just then give them a reason?

Picking up stuff

don't tend to happen.

Doesn't tend to happen. The book will do the work. Our job is to pull it is to pull them through. Yeah, we don't need to do that. That we don't need to give that kind of forceful intervention that, yeah, the book will take it. And So what we do is let the book do the work. And then then we don't have discussion. Yeah, we don't. We don't have

what the only question? I'll repeat that thing 'cause it's a pretty important question. The only weak question we ask is do you identify or relate?

Opinion never gets off the ground. Thoughts never get off the ground. We don't want that. We want to do the book the way it's laid out. And so we stick to that pretty tight, you know, and it's not uncomfortable because people get used to that pretty quickly. And, and they're trusted, you know, they're comfortable, they know what we're going to do. And though it tends to, it tends to work very well.

Attraction rather than promotion. Tonight here. Sometimes the rooms, people, when people start talking about the steps in meetings, they'll say we know we don't. We don't promote this stuff, we subtract it.

My job

promote those steps and this process of finding others. My job is sit back and we forgot to happen in these people and have them approaching me.

Well, it's, it's a,

it's a program of attraction. It's, I think our program of attacks. Attraction is us and how we carry ourselves.

It's not what we do. It's so much how we live, you know, and we either a good example or a bad example, one or the other. And in the same way in, in, in, in, in doing a thing like this that you can't motivate the guy to do it. It it's a matter of just leading through the, the work, insisting that we stay there. And so now I think it's a good point about promoting versus attracting, you know, which we'll deal with that a little bit later on in another session. But The

thing is on this one, we're looking for people who want to get well. We want people who are serious enough to make a commitment. And if they're not, we don't want to mess with it. You know, they didn't get into discussion meetings and spend the rest of their life if you want to. But we want to get in with people who really want to get well. And so that's what we're looking for. And so we just get the word out. And if we don't screen people and try to try to gauge your sincerity, we don't do that. If they got enough sense to find a door, come in

and they'll either stay or go one of the other. The overwhelming majority stay,

but some will have some slippage. Of course, here, nothing's perfect. I just tell you this, if since I've been an A, it's the most effective thing I've ever been involved in, by far the most effective thing. That's what I'm interested in. So I don't, I'm open to, to new ones, but but the yeah, that's, that's an interesting question though, if you're in yeah.

So in in the process, you would actually go word for word from the beginning all the way through the 164 pages.

That's right. Yeah. And then you would have places where you would be stopping and asking that question. Do you identify? Do you relate? Is that or is it just an I'll tell you what I do

pay attention in that way, what I do not cheat. Just looked at I've got the book on tape

and when I've got a session coming up, I can, I mean, good God, even I got sense enough to anticipate about what we'll cover. And So what I'll do is put that on when I'm commuting. You know, I was working when I put the first one on and when I'm commuting, I play that part of the book over and over till I till I was satisfied. I really understood the message of it because I'm going to lead it. I got to know where we're going. And and So what I'm doing in that is there will be certain.

I want to kind of draw people out. Yeah. So it's not just reading and and listening. It's more a matter of strategically saying call on somebody, you know, say, hey, do you identify with that? You know, and it just engaged me, but not just waiting for a free fraud, but just strategic leadership. And I think leadership is critical in a discussion. I absolutely despise meetings where somebody just put some on the table and then sit and talk. I mean, God knows, man, I might as well

pool room, you know, it's a pure for the value it has for me. So that, but that's what I do and that's, that's the kind of preparation. So when I get in, I, I can, I know the group and I'll kind of strategically call them somebody that I think is going to really have something to say or needs to say something about that. So that's what I do in terms of the leadership in it. Do you have an idea? Say, for example, you're saying the longest one was 18 months, so 164 pages. You're, you're on average you're about 3 pages

a session. Do you have it kind of bookmarked beforehand that you have an idea? I want to get through these 5 pages tonight or nothing set up in advance? Not really. I may have an ambition, but I don't have a real cut of the one that lasted. I made a bad mistake on the one that lasted 18 months.

I had 32 people in that group. That's too many. That is too many. And my God, they by drove me crazy. And we put and and I'm the one leading the parade. So I couldn't criticize anybody. I thought very appropriately we ended on Halloween night.

I said come on guys, we're done. But yeah, that would that would just that kind of bad play because it was open door when you close the door and 32 is too many that 50s are kind of outside deal. Yeah,

about the eight day step through and the watch step group,

there's a workshop that's happening in Vancouver area.

There's probably been about 500 people go through, about 100 of them have gone through my home and there's a couple of that are doing the work. And it was explained to me in my experiences, I've done these longer step groups where it's taken me like 9 months, 10 months of my experience on that was, I mean, lots to do that. And Wilson

having real trouble at the beginning getting people sober by just working the steps. And he wrote Doctor Bob and said like he's, he was having great success over there and said, like, how are you doing it? And Doctor Bob wrote back one sentence and it said, we're getting them to God quick. So in my experience, the same thing

I'm really looking forward to hearing we have to say about the shorter term statutes that are going through because what the advantage of what I'm seeing is

the importance of that is not only we, we create that fellowship that grows among us. And so, you know, it's like a year and a half ago where I had one friend that I could count on going through that eight day schedule, but it's like 10-15 people at a time resulted in, you know, having having a good pool, a good resource group to go to

as support. We have like 86 people in our backyard for for barbecues and that type of thing. So I think you're the importance of that is is for the newcomers

and getting them to God quick and getting them into the fellowship and and watching how we're covered Alcoholics

move through the meetings and help others. It's so so that's interesting to hear your point on that AP

The the concern I have. Well, my God, we've the market is flooded with, with get sober quick things. I mean, we got stuff being generated by every state and nation that's got the better quicker way or whatever. I personally am leery of of quick fixes. If you shorten it too much, what you're doing is reading the book. It is not for understanding, is for experience. You know, the, the, the book is a guide to having the experience

and that's why I don't like to rush through it too much. My suspicion with that shorter version is it may be too quick that you look at four months, but we limit it to 10. In that one we limited to 10.

I've vaguely familiar with it. I'll tell you one thing that that and I'm almost old enough to quote it first person,

but

there's some romantic notion that we did it just beautifully better in the old days.

That's a that's a wonderful kind of dream, but it's not a reality. Yes, Jesus,

if you want to take a look,

I don't like to be a prophet of gloom, but I don't like to be a prophet of, of of imagination either. If you really want to take a look at what the old days were like, look at the rest of the story on the 1st 100.

Take a look at what you'll see will kill. This notion that we had some magical way of just zipping folk through here that I never, when I came in, I never heard of anybody taking anybody through steps. It just wasn't done. I never went to a big book meeting the 1st 15 years because there weren't any weren't they just didn't happen. And so, you know, the story gets richer as the time goes on.

It's a it's a tough illness. That's one minute. I saw if somebody's waiting right here and I'll be right back.

You mentioned these workshops and 12 to 18 months. And I remember a couple of years ago that you decided to do a shortened version and and tighten that up and do in three months. And So what was your experience with the three month version as opposed to lengthening and out? Was it as effective and what were the what were the lessons you learned? Well, I tell you one thing I learned, it's a lot of easier on the leader

That was so because it does it moves fast and it puts the work, the burden of the work on the person, which I love. But but

I'm sorry, the quick fix thing, you know what, what just basically the way that thing works, you go through and it's laid out. If it's easy to say you got the material for the guy to take a look at it and the guy over in the in PA who's now living in Arizona, it's got it worked and put that together.

And what I like is that the leader will basically do it do a little introduction to a chapter. We'll delve into a chapter a bit and then we'll assign as I don't like the term, but they he called it homework. You have what you do between meetings and what you do is go through there and highlight what you identify with the same thing we do openly in the session, what was important to you, and then bring that back to the group and share it with the rest of the group. Now that

I like the dynamic of that with you with engaging into sharing what because everybody's not going to get the same thing. So those that those things I like, but I'm just leery about the the speed. So what what I'm doing right now is just observing what's happened with the people long term. If it's not resulting in people sober, I don't care how cute it is.

I don't want to. I don't want to get caught up in the notion that because it's cute, it's good. So I want to look at that out long term outcome of it.

In my experience in doing similar type

workshops, we would go on groups of 11 to 15 and it would take four to six months. And the success rate, everyone who went through the entire process, everyone

and they're still involved. Yeah, there's no magic bullet, but that's sure.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah, there is no magic bullet because even with the influx of all these things, we still have a horrendous turnover rate, horrendous turnover. So whatever we're doing, I mean, we still got work to do. There's no question about that. So I would hope this thing will hold up well with the little, little, you know, observation. Well, it sure gets easier. Only one, one second. I believe there's one more.

You had your hand up,

right? I'm not long enough.

53

No, no, Bob son, not him. I'm not that old, for God's sake,

what I'm doing right?

These people coming out and saying, OK, we've been, it's been passed on by a downline, downline from Ball and we do the steps in eight days.

And then we recovered

and particularly announcing I'm gonna recover the alcoholic, not what the book says, from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body because of my book on page 85, it tells me that we are not cured of alcoholism. What we have is a daily reprieve contingent upon our spiritual maintenance.

New condition

Regina, My question was like, if

you know

how long is I don't think it matters that much, you know, but but it is written that way, you know, recovered out. I refer to myself as you know, and I I am Nicole. I could go back. It certainly could do that, but I do that. But I just I really don't think it makes a lot of difference. Did I just know a guy right now, 11 years, you know, and he's got 5000 right?

You know, I never milk him. Said to me why he said he said, you know, I got play freak. This is don't you put me up on the rest,

right? Yeah. None of us, none of us said that for sure, that's for sure. Yeah,

for me, the critical variable was and still is a sponsor.

I'm alive because of humble Bob M, who was my sponsor in 1994 when I got that treatment. You're a survivor.

Somehow

my understanding helped me listen to that Lady, and because of his

directness

and his honesty and his ability to sort of move at the pace at which I could. But

he actually pushed me really and I'm alive. I have a family, I have a patient like all all the things that father do that the critical variable. Could you comment on that like a sponsored pretty well from the word go and we can pass them together.