The chapter Working with Others at a Big Book study in Winston-Salem, NC

It is great to be here tonight and you know, I'm a little, I'm a little sad. This is a the last night I'm going to be here. I, you know, I felt really comfortable in this group. I want to thank everybody for coming.

It's always a privilege and an honor to be able to, to do this kind of a thing. And it it helps me as much as as it helps anybody.

Tonight we're going to be going over Step 12, the chapter Working with others

and I'll, I'll put a warning in there from the very start. This is a very challenging chapter. There's a call to action in this chapter that that you can pick up on loud and clear when you, when you move through this chapter. Alcoholics Anonymous has changed a lot over the years and working with others, the chapter has stayed the same, but but sometimes how we approach working with others has changed.

A lot of a lot of the fellowship stuff has moved in to replace a lot of the program stuff.

I'll, I'll tell you about. I'll tell you about a riot I started at the New Jersey convention about 10 years ago, OK? I mean, it was, it was pretty bad.

They asked me to finish up the Alkathon and here's the instructions I got. My instructions were to share for 20 minutes and then open the meeting up to discussion. And my topic was to be the 12th step. So I thought, okay, how am I going to do this? You know, I thought I take these things

seriously. So I did some preparation. How I how I did it was this. I shared for 10 minutes on the 1st 11 steps and then explained how they prepared me to do the 12th step. And then I explained how I took other people through the steps in the 12th step. Now there was an old timer there that took exception to what I had to say because he was there with his fonsees. And I guess, you know, whatever I was sharing, you know, brought up, you know, brought up some antagonism in this individual.

That's not what he was doing, what I was talking about. And, you know, rather than be open minded on it all, you know, he chose to to attack me and

started sharing. And he shared for about 5 minutes. And it was kind of like this. Yeah, I listened in. Yeah. You sound like some crazy counselor. So I don't know what the hell you're talking about. All these steps and how you're doing all this and you're bringing somebody over to your house and you're doing your inventory in a man's. All this crap.

Tell you something. I got 20 years and this is how we do it is how I learned how to do it. You get the person that gets thrown in the car and you take them to a meeting and you love them until they love themselves. I don't want those other steps. Crap is about that.

You know,

his problem was I was, I was leading the meeting and I had rebuttal rights, you know what I'm saying? So you know, I let him go on and on and on and I thanked him for sharing and I, I basically said something like this. You know, I really appreciated your opinion on, you know, how you work with others. But

there is a chapter in the in the basic text of Alcoholics Anonymous that lays out some serious guidelines for how we are to work with others. And I'm pretty, pretty familiar with that chapter is I've probably been through it 50 times. And I can't recall anywhere in there where it says throw somebody in a car

taken to a meaning and love them until they love themselves. And he freaked. OK, this guy freaked because I guess I made him feel small or something. And he got up and he started throwing chairs and kicking over tables. I've never seen this happen before. But the the leader of the meeting stopped the meeting meetings over everything, over everything over there. People are blowing for the exits. I mean, it really, you know, what a what a way to end the alchathon for the New Jersey, you know, 2000 convention or whatever it was. But

but you know, I mean, I mean, you know, there was such a disparity between this individuals experience and what is in this book. And it you know, it's it really is a critique on practices at that that we engage in in Alcoholics Anonymous. Now, why am I

really passionate about this book and why am I really passionate about these steps? I I'm gonna tell you absolutely honestly the truth. I am, I am passionate about this stuff because I have seen this stuff work when I have seen throwing somebody in a car and taken to a meeting not work. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Meeting makers do not make it.

If you if you make meetings and you work stabs, you got a whole lot bigger chance of making it. It's about improving someones odds of survival. That's what that's what this book is about and that's why I'm passionate about it. It improves survivability rates

with Alcoholics if they do this work. Now there are people in a a meetings that do not have to do the 12 steps and you know what, that is absolutely fine with me. They have not gone down the scale as far as some of us have,

but there is there is the type of alcoholic that they describe in this book as a hopeless alcoholic or a real alcoholic. That's the terminology they use. And those individuals are not going to be able to hitch up their bootstraps and just not drink. And what happens in Alcoholics Anonymous today way too much is those individuals are not engaged in a recovery process and they relapse their way right out of here. And a lot of times they die. And you know what, that's

are full more than it's their fault if we're not offering them an opportunity to engage in a recovery program. Now, I'll say this again. There is the type of alcoholic they describe in this book as a real alcoholic or a hopeless alcoholic who ain't going to just be able to just go to meetings and not drink,

you know, And it's not about it's not about disappointing you as a sponsor, you know, and you're looking bad because these guys are drinking. It's about you as a sponsor are not effectively carrying the message of recovery to those individuals. Now, this is not a popular message. It does not make me the most popular person in the world to say this stuff.

You know, a lot of times, you know this is a good group. You guys are good sports about all this. But I'll share something like this at certain meanings and people will get up and walk out. It's not their experience and they take exception to it because they've been doing it differently for a long period of time. Part of recovery is remaining open minded and remaining teachable.

If you have people who are relapsing on you, try what it says in the chapter working with others.

What do you have to lose? And it may mean the difference between that individuals living and that individuals dying. So often we don't want to take responsibility. If if someone asks you to sponsor them or to take you through the steps, take that seriously.

Take that seriously. Now, they're not always going to be willing to do it. A lot of times they're going to have a whole lot of enthusiasm to ask you and not a lot of follow through to actually do it. That's on them. But you being available to offer this recovery process is your job. And if you're not doing it, you could. It's contributory manslaughter, folks. That's that's what it is because it's in our book and we need to pay. We need to pay attention to it.

Too many people are dying in Alcoholics Anonymous today because we're expecting them to just not drink and go to meetings when they can't. The whole message of this book is there is a classification of an alcoholic who no amount of mental defense can prevent them from taking the first drink. Only a spiritual awakening is going to be sufficient for them to remain separated from alcohol. And the chapter Working with Others teaches us how to offer that spiritual

awakening. And I got to tell you, you want the easier, softer way. Let's say we've gotten lazy in a Let's just say that I'm saying it's easier to take somebody through the steps than to field phone calls every night for 10 years, trying to manage unmanageable drama with them. You know how you wouldn't believe what I did today?

Well, no, I actually do believe what you did. You know what I mean? You've got so many holes in your shoes from shooting yourself in the foot, it ain't funny. You know, it is way easier to get somebody through the steps than it is to try to help them manage something that's unmanageable, which is their life.

You know, we're not supposed to necessarily be the managers of people's lives. We're supposed. Has anybody ever seen the the Sistine Chapel with the Leo Leonardo da Vinci did the painting of and there's Adam pointing his finger. There's God pointing his, you know, touching Adam Singer. What we're supposed to be is we're supposed to be that hand pointing to God just like it is on the Sistine Chapel. We are not supposed to be their managers. We're not supposed to be their life.

We're not supposed to be their marriage counselors. We're just supposed to offer them a recovery process. And that's a lot easier than the other alternative. So I would, I would, I would suggest if you have not tried sponsoring this way to try it. My best friends in my life are the cruel of guys who went through the steps with me in the 90s. These are guys who will take a bullet for me if I call them up right now. I say, I need you in North Carolina

there, you know, they they pack up and they go these these are these are these are my best friends in the world. And we're in the fellowship of the spirit together. There's the there's the spirit of the fellowship, which is in every a meaning. And then there's the fellowship of the spirit, and that's the people who join and brotherly as and harmonious action

after having been relieved of the bondage of self and and and got gained some freedom from alcoholism from the from the the destructive aspects of alcoholism. So let's take a look at the chapter Working with others.

Practical experience shows that nothing will so much ensure immunity from drinking as intensive work with other Alcoholics. If you're convinced you've got to progressively fatal illness, that over any considerable period of time it's going to get worse, not better,

you would pay attention to a statement like that. This is offering you immunity from the alcohol that's killing you

and destroying a lot of your life. Your character defects are also contributing. But I'll tell you what, it's very difficult to work on character defects when you're drinking. You know, I, you know, I never came out of a blackout with a list of things that I, that I should do to be better. You know what I mean? I never came out of a blackout running up a charity drive or something.

You know, the last thing on our minds when alcohol is involved is helping other people. It's all about us. So immunity from drinking is an important promise that you get from intensive work with other Alcoholics. Now is intensive work with other Alcoholics, giving them a phone number and telling them to call you if you feel like drinking.

And that doesn't sound like intensive work with other Alcoholics to me. I think what they're talking about is getting them over to the house or a neutral ground and qualifying them with step one and then explaining how you've had a, had a spiritual awakening going through the steps in an offering that to them. I think that's our responsibility. You know when it says anyone anywhere, you know, reaches out for the hand of A. We want the hand of A, A always to be there. If we for one reason or another can't take these people

steps, pass them on to someone who can. Or get your own experience and learn how to do it yourself. I am telling you some of the greatest promises in the world come from this. There are promises in the 12th step that you only get from doing this 12 step work. And there's some of the best promises available in this book.

This works when other activities fail. Carry this message to other Alcoholics. You can help when no one else can. You can secure their confidence when others fail. Remember, they are very ill.

I had a bunch of counselors when I was in treatment, and one of them was a woman who identified herself as an adult child of an alcoholic.

She would start, every time she started to talk, she would say, you know, my name is Mona. I'm an adult child of an alcoholic. And I didn't know what the hell she was talking about. I didn't know why she was announcing herself that way. I was thinking, well, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a psychotic son of a librarian. But I don't start every sentence with that. You know what, what, what is that? What does that mean?

And what I found out later was this woman was a codependent and, and she got to the point where she would push up on me in Group. And one of the things that she asked me one time was Chris, are you happy, mad, sad or glad? After I went on this tirade about something, you know, the coffee wasn't good or something, you know,

and and I thought to myself, what the hell is she talking about? My feelings. I don't know what my feelings are. I just I just came out of I just came off the battlefield. You know, I am shell shocked. I don't know what the hell. But what the happy glad matter said, what are you talking about? I want to kill you,

you know, and, and now the other counselor was Charlie the alcoholic, OK? And he pinned me right to the wall every time we talked. I knew he was talking about, I knew he knew what he was talking about. He wasn't trying. He wasn't trying to shine me around with, with a bunch of psycho Babble. He would just pin me to the wall and tell me what I was. So what was going on and what I needed to do. And you know, we need practical, we need practical advice like that.

Here's some of the 12 step promises and they're peppered throughout this chapter. Life will take on new meaning. To watch other people recover, to see them help others in the watch loneliness vanish, to see a fellowship grow up about you, to have a host of friends. This is an experience you must not miss. I've had fellowships grow up about me. I've been part of creating the fellowship. I crave the friendship, the closeness, the the bonding with other people that I always wanted.

I was going after that in the bars, but I wasn't getting very far, you know, because I would go from being the most magnanimous wonder, wonderful guy to like a psychopathic, I'm going to kill you. And that you know, that that would disconcert people.

Frequent contact with newcomers and with each other is the bright spot of our lives

now. I believe this really is only a promise that's going to come true when you're working with others because frequent contact with newcomers was was not what I was going after. You know, when I had about a year, I why I'd see a newcomers hand go up and I'd go, Oh no, here we go, as mutton head is going to be sharing, you know, crapping

and listen to Oh God, God, shut up, will you just drink, you know, and get it over with. Just shut up. I want to share, you know.

So until I had the spiritual awakenings as a result of the steps, I had no compassion for the newcomers

worried about me. It was a selfish program, you know.

Now, a qualification on this book. Remember, you know, I've said this before, I'm going to say it again. Remember there were two groups when this book was written. A couple of groups were starting up but there was 2 main groups, Akron and Cleveland and Bill Wilson.

The schemer knew that if he put this book together and advertised it to doctors as a cure for alcoholism he would become a millionaire. So he put this together for mail order sobriety and recovery. He put the instructions in here that if this was mailed to you in in Albuquerque,

you could read this, you could do what it says to do and you could recover. And that's absolutely true, except we all know today that the best way is for one alcoholic to carry this message to another. If the Big Book would have would have worked for me, you know, one, the first time I read it, I would have started doing this stuff. But that's not what happens. I mean, how many in here have read the big Book a long time before you really started serious step work? I read it like it was a Da Vinci Code, you know,

OK.

I was, you know, pretty poorly written. Bill Wilson was definitely a loser. You know, I mean, that was my impression, you know, but this is a textbook. So they found that textbooks need to be taught. So we need to teach this material to people. And one of the horrible things that they used to say in North Jersey AA when I first got sober was there's no teachers in a A teachers get drunk.

Well, I beg to differ. There's a wonderful quote by Bill Wilson in, I believe it's in the pamphlet Problems Other than Apple. It says the, the sole purpose of an, A, A group is the teaching

and practice of the 12 steps. That's the sole purpose of an A A group. So what we need to do is we need to ban together and we need to form, you know, Posse's or whatever we need to do for when newcomers come in. We can offer them a solution. Now they can take it or they can leave it, but it's a solution that we can offer. So often we want to not hurt people's feelings. As we go through this chapter, it basically tells us if they're not willing to work the steps with steps with us,

bye, bye. Does it mean we're throwing them out of a A? It means we don't work with them because it's a waste of our time and it's probably a waste of theirs. Our time as recovered members of Alcoholics Anonymous is valuable. And if someone won't go through the steps with you, move on to someone who does. There's these are direct instructions in this chapter.

If they just want to go to meetings and drink the coffee and share, that's fine, let them. But don't you waste your personal working with others time with those individuals.

Don't don't sponsor them and and sign a suicide pact with them saying, you know, I won't hold you accountable for anything if you don't hold me accountable for anything, that's a suicide pact. So, so take this, take these responsibilities seriously.

Now it says, all right, where are we going to find these drinkers? Remember, this book is in Albuquerque and there's, there's no AA groups. Perhaps you're not acquainted with any drink drinkers who want to recover. You can easily find somebody asking a few doctors, ministers, priests or hospitals. Now we don't do this much anymore. We wait for them to come into AA. I think we need to be a little bit more proactive. A lot of the guys I work with, I suggest very, very strongly that they get commitments. They get commitments at the prisons, They get commitments at the

centers, into detoxes, at the mental hospitals, at the VA's, wherever they need to do that and to try to find Alcoholics willing to go through the steps. Now, a number of my guys have taken this seriously and have done incredible work. There are hundreds and hundreds of recovered Alcoholics in the North Jersey area because.

Of my guys, you know, they were saved from a hopeless condition because they were willing. They were, they had a willingness born of desperation. They had tried a lot of other things that didn't work and they sat down and they got busy with with some of my guys and recovered.

When you discover a prospect for Alcoholics Anonymous, find out all you can about them. This paragraph talks about we need to, we need to be able to understand the individual initially. This is a sales job. We're selling them on the idea of powerlessness, what alcoholism is,

and then we're sharing our experience with the recovery process and we're selling them on the idea that they can get well no matter what as long as they're willing to clean house, trust God and help others. That's what that's what we're that's what we're trying to sell to these individuals. Now, is everybody going to buy the sale pitch? No,

no, in, in the early days when I was in AAI thought a 1212 step call was taking somebody to a detox. I thought a 12 simple call was taking somebody to a meeting or to a rehab. You know, today I understand the 12th 12 step goal is sitting down and helping to qualify an individual and then explain to them what the program of recovery entails, what they're going to need to do to have a psychic change, have a spiritual awakening. And this chapter is abundantly clear on that.

If he does not want to stop drinking, don't waste time trying to persuade him. You may spoil later opportunity. Leave him your phone number. Say, hey, if you don't want to get over drinking fun, you don't want to work the steps with me, Fine, here's my phone number. You know when you're willing, when you're willing to to, to, to really try this.

I'll be there for you. I'll be there every step of the way as long as you're you're willing.

If there's any indication that he wants to stop, have a good person will talk with the person most interested in usually his wife. Again, you want to know a little bit about the personality. You want to know a little bit. If you're doing a sales call, let's say you're trying to sell insurance to to a large corporation. You're going to do your due diligence. You're going to learn a little bit about that corporation. You're going to learn who the major players are. You're going to try to figure out what kind of insurance they have now, how you can do better,

and you're going to prepare a little bit for that sales pitch. We need to sometimes do that with our prospects also.

Do you need this information to put yourself in his place, to see how you would like him to approach you if the tables were turned? Sometimes it's wise to wait till he goes on a binge. Now why would this be? Anybody in here? Come to the next morning with the summonses in your back pocket or the car? The side of the car is gone, you know what I mean? Or or or or you know,

you know, you saw, you saw it. You went to to bed with Bo Derek and then you woke up and it was Bo Diddley.

You know, I mean, I mean, there's, there's just, there's just a lot of a lot of guilt and shame and remorse and, you know, you're getting thrown out of the house, you're losing your job, you know, whatever. How many, how many of us have had experiences like that? You know, let the record show all 400 hands.

OK, now you're a little bit more pliable at that point. I'm listen, if you just had the best time in your life, you know, you know, you were, you were, you were hanging out with, with, with the, the Swedish women ski team, you know, doing cocktails off their belly buttons or something. I mean, you're not going to want to quit,

but but if you just, you know, if you've just run into the rear end of a cop and you were so drunk you couldn't get out of the car, you're, you know, you're going to have a different attitude and a different outlook about this stuff. Maybe. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm willing. So sometimes it's willing. It's it's better to wait for them to go on a bench than it is to try to talk them out of drinking. And it's a recovery when they really they they really don't have interest in that. I remember this one time, you know, I had a drinking buddy. This this woman used to be my drinking buddy. And when I got sober, I was going to get her.

I remember putting a, putting an extension ladder up on her house. She had me locked out. She'd want to hear anything about A. And I got up on the third story and I broke in her window with everybody we're going to take her to. I mean, how ridiculous. She's probably still drinking, you know what I mean? The crazy AAS they broke into my you know,

you know,

so you know, we it's just better. It's just better to wait until there that pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization is on him from one more relapse, one more trip to the detox, you know, one more trip to you know, to, to the, to the courts for a,

another DUI or something. That's a real good time to approach somebody.

Don't deal with him when he is very drunk.

I made this mistake one time. This guy called us up from the bar and said help, you know, it's like rallied the troops and we went over there. We got to be so drunk. And when we got there, we're like, OK, we're taking a detox. She goes detox. I just needed a ride home. You know, we're like, like you're not going home, you're going to the detox, all right.

And and he woke up in the detox. Next they go, what the hell am I doing here? I got up and split. It was a total waste of a night. It was a total waste of a night.

Wait for the end of a spree, or at least a lucid interval.

Then let him ask his family. Ask his family or friend to ask him if he wants to quit for good and would go to any extreme to do so. Quit for good and go to any extreme to do so. Well, I only decide not to drink one day at a time. That's not what the book is asking us. The book is asking us for a full full blown commitment here. Are we willing to quit for good? Are we willing to go to any extreme to do so?

Now, sometimes when I share this, somebody and somebody will share, you know, I never would have came into a A if they would have told me I had to quit for good. And, you know, my observation is always, well, I don't think there's a lot of people that would miss you, you know what I'm saying? OK,

if he says yes, then his attention to be drawn to you as a person who has recovered, not not a person who is slowly recovering. A person who has recovered you should be described as him, as one of a fellowship who has a part of their own recovery. Try to help others and who will be glad to talk to him if he cares to see you. If he does not want to see you, never force yourself upon him.

Neither should the family hysterically plead with him to do anything, nor should they tell him much about you. They should wait for the end of his next drinking bout.

You might place this book where you can see it in the interval. Anybody in here ever came out of a come out of a blackout and there's a a literature on the table next to you. That's always that's always fun,

right? See your man alone if possible is one of the instructions. Now it does not say go on a 12 step call alone. See you man alone if possible means when you're doing the 12 step call, when you're trying to help him identify and qualify himself and then share your experience with the recovery program and see if he wants that recovery program. You know, you should not have his family sitting there because if his family sitting there going to be gone. Listen, damn, listen. Damn. You know, I mean, you want, you want to give the guy a little bit of dignity, you know, a little,

a little bit of privacy to really think about think about this stuff. Now. I also highly recommend if you're going on a 12 step call with a wet drunk to go with somebody. I've had my life threatened on on two occasions. This one occasion I get this crazy phone call. It's a middle of the night

and this guy goes, Chris, Chris, I need help. I'm like, well, what's going on? He goes, Satan is talking to me. You know that. That's an important warning sign, by the way, if you're, if you're new to working with others

and I know enough about Satan to ask him this next question. How much cocaine are you doing? You know, and ohh, 4G, you know, like, oh, OK, alright, we're on our way over. You know, I get I, I, I grabbed my guy and we go over there, I'm driving, my support is in the front seat and we throw him in the back. Now this is a guy who

was a was a boxer. I mean, he, you know, he looked like Hulk Hogan. He was just huge. If he wasn't punching somebody who was lifting weights and he's in the back of my car and I remember I go to him. Andy, you know how you doing? Is is Satan still talking to you? You know, we're heading to Happy Hills and he goes, yes, I'm still talking to me.

He's telling me to hurt people. I'm like,

and I go, yeah. And he goes, Especially people that are trying to help me. I'm like, Oh no. Well made. Made for a nervous ride to Happy Hills.

Another time, another time happened when I was on vacation down here in North Carolina, right over in Statesville. I had an old meeting book. So I showed up to a place where the meetings weren't there anymore. They, they, it used to be the cup of water and now it's something else, you know, so I show up and, and there's no meeting and, you know, people are living there,

you know, so I'm in the wrong place. And somebody and this guy comes up with his girlfriend, drives up with his girlfriend and he got the same meeting book. I guess he, he's expecting a meeting. And, you know, so I start talking to him on the sidewalk and he's coming back from his 12th DUI. You guys do it right down here in North Carolina. I got to tell you, 12 DUI. He had just done like nine months in prison and, and his codependent girlfriend was dragging him around. And, you know, it was, it was beautiful. She's like, yeah, he's just kind of prison,

you know, she was like, she was like total, total untreated Al Anon. It was just amazing to see. Yeah, you know, he's got a parole officer and she's like proud of all this. And so anyway, anyway, I go look, you know, we, I guess the meetings not here. Why don't we get a cup of coffee? You know, I'm going to do my 12 step number on this guy. All right. So we're sitting in Denny's having a having a cup of coffee, and I'm hitting them with the truth.

You've got to progressively fail your illness, you know, over incurring several period of time. It's worse. It never gets better. You know, unless you were arrested with a spiritual recovery process, it's, you know, just gonna get worse. You're gonna keep getting Duis. And he goes whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,

hey, goes. I need to tell you something. I usually kill people that give me bad news.

I'm like, waitress check, you know, I'll see you later. I'll see you later. Oh boy,

messing with the wrong guy.

All right, I first engage in general conversation. You got, you got your prospect. It doesn't say sponsorship in this book. Sponsorship happened a little bit later and it happened because of Doctor Bob having to sponsor people to get him into the hospital or else the hospital didn't want him unless an AA member was willing to vouch for them that they would be taking them through the steps.

The hospital didn't want to mess with them because they knew that they just relapsed and it'd be a big waste of money. So you needed to be sponsored. Now that's kind of where kind of where it came from. There's different descriptions of in this book they call somebody a prospect and I want, what I think that means is it's somebody that you have not done your 12 step number with yet. You haven't qualified them. You haven't explained the program of recovery or or you know, ask them if they wanted that. So there are prospects

once you've done that and they say, yes, I want this thing, they are then a protege. That's the terminology that this book uses. And then when they've had their own experience and they're working with others, they're a friend, you know? So there's some groups out there that have like fanatically,

you know, hierarchical, you know, dictatorial sponsors who, you know, 10 years down the road, they're telling you what kind of car to buy and what, what kind of person to marry and, you know, what kind of job to have. You know, that's not what this book is talking about. This book is talking about freedom. This book is talking about freedom. And what we want is we want to walk hand in hand with the new man, you know,

you know, trudge the road to happy destiny with this individual. Not as you know,

as someone who overseas the minutia of their life and has authority over that, but as as peers. Because when you get to when you get through and you have a spiritual awakening and the person you're working with has a spiritual awakening, your, your peers, you're now reliant upon God and obedient to spiritual principles. You don't necessarily have to be obedient to people. You know, there are some mutton heads in Alcoholics. I don't know if anybody in here has discovered that yet, but there's

mutton has. And you know, if you place yourself unreservedly under their care and protection and they're guiding your life, hell, they, they drove themselves into the ditch, you know, so blind man leads a blind man, you know what happens? So so again, what we're trying to do is get somebody to the power, the power

that's going to be able to help them with their life. And that power eat you. No human power can relieve alcoholism. It has to be a power greater than yourself. After a while, turn the talk to some phase of drinking. Tell about your own drinking habits, symptoms and experiences. Encourage him to speak of himself.

If he wishes to talk, let him do so. You will thus get a better idea of how you ought to perceive. If he is not commutative, give him a sketch of your drinking career up to the time you quit, but say nothing for the moment of how that was accomplished, trying to set the hook a little bit. You want them to say, well, you're not drinking now. What did you do?

You know you got him. You got him when they say that if he's in a serious mood, dwell on the troubled liquors has caused you being careful not to moralize or lecture. If this mood is light, tell him humorous stories of your escapades. Get him to tell you some of his. This is an identification process and you, you know, you, you have to pick up on the end individual. This is not a cookie cutter type of a thing. We have to be reactive and we have to be intuitive.

One of the promises is, is that that

one of the promises is that you will intuitively know how to handle situations that used to baffle you. And that promise is no more operative anywhere else. It's no more operative than when you're working with others. I am not smart enough to get away with some of the stuff I've gotten away on my 12 step calls. I ended up saying the right thing. And it's not because I'm smart. I just, I was guided. I had that intuition,

you know what I mean, in the middle of the 12 step call and I was paying attention to the other person.

I don't go in there with a pitch. I go in there trying, trying to see, you know, trying to see what you know, what would work best with this individual when he sees you know all about the drinking game commenced to describe yourself as an alcoholic. Tell him how baffled you were, how you finally learned you were sick, given an account of the struggles you made to stop.

This is key, OK? It says in the chapter we agnostics. We hope we've made clear the distinction between the alcoholic and the non alcoholic. The alcoholic is going to be able to share about their struggles to stop because 99 out of 100 Alcoholics out there struggled

to stop and we're not able to show him the mental twist which leads to the first drink of his spring. Explain the mental obsession. Explain why you may absolutely want to not drink, but don't you end up drunk? Oh, yeah. Haven't you sworn off booze countless times? But booze goes back in your body. Yeah. Well, then explain a little bit about the mental obsession and how how how

human willpower does not work,

how sufficient desire does not work, How looking at the consequences of the problems you've had in the past is not a sufficient defense against picking up the next string. Because if you're alcoholic, you're gonna have that experience.

We suggest you do this as we have done in the chapter on alcoholism. So if you're going to be doing a 12 step call, you need to be familiar with the basics of the chapter more about alcoholism. If he's alcoholic, he will understand you at once. If he's just, if he's just a nut job, he won't. OK, you'll be saving yourself a lot of time.

He will match your own mental inconsistencies with some of his own. You know, you know, that's happened to me,

has happened to me. I signed in the Bible, you know, and promised my family I would never drink again.

And I I only lasted 3 days.

Well, yeah, you know, welcome. You know, brother, you know I'm with you.

Now here's a good one if you are satisfied he is a real alcoholic. But begin to dwell on the hopeless feature of the malady. Part of the qualification process that we've almost lost sight of in Alcoholics Anonymous is qualifying the person as an alcoholic.

If you're qualifying somebody and they don't have the obsession of the mind that you know they can or they can stop or moderate, they're just in here for the coffee. You know, you don't need to work with them if they don't have that allergy in the body. If one drink doesn't lead to the second drink that asks for the third drink that demands the 4th drink, then you don't need to work with them either. They've just got a drinking problem, and they can solve that problem by not drinking.

But if you're convinced they're an alcoholic

now, now we can. Now we can start to move forward. Show him from your own experience how the queer mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of willpower. How when you start to drink, you get that motor going and there's very, very little stopping it. Okay, you have to be arrested,

you have to completely run out of booze. You have to pass out. You know this is something an alcoholic is going to understand

if he sticks to the idea that he can still control his drinking. Tell him that he possibly can if he's not too alcoholic, but insist that if he's severely afflicted, there may be little chance he can recover himself.

You know? Well, I think I can control it. Well, try it for a while, you know, try controlling it for a while. Is my phone number. If you can control it, you know, rock on. You know, I mean, I wish I could control it. I'd be a partying fool. I can't though, you know, I start off partying and end up sleeping in a Bush or something, you know?

Because I get the job done,

you know what I mean?

Anybody in here get the job done when they drink? You know what I'm talking about?

His lightweights that go home.

I gotta go home. Are you crazy? So 2:00.

Anybody in here use cocaine so you can drink like for 24 hours straight and not pass out? Let the record show a huge amount of hands went up there.

Oh my God. One time I started to use heroin to try to control my alcohol consumption. Was the only thing I knew of that would take away that the physical craving for more alcohol.

Let not nuts. I thought it was a good idea. You know, I'm going to tell you. I got to tell you, I went to New Lowe's. Start doing that and then things get decadent really fast.

Oh man, I ended up with a girlfriend who could remove her front tooth, you know?

Oh my God,

moved her in with me and mom, you know, and wondered my why my mother had such a problem. You know, all she do is sleep all day long, you know, Oh God, she stole, she stole license plates off the neighbors car, you know, to, to oh man, it was a mess. It's a mess. You know, there's all kinds of different stuff that can happen when you get involved with that.