The fruits of Sponsorship at the "Kitchen Table AA with gumbo" workshop in Now Orleans, LA

Welcome back.

Hey, why don't we not meditate for three minutes? But we'll but we'll say the Serenity prayer. How about that God

grab me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Amen.

I wanted to thank all of you for coming and then I want to thank you for staying

and the fact that you come together and, and allow us to come out and enjoy this great part of the world and, and be with you and your hospitality. We were all very touched by your hospitality and the the food and the friendship and it it means a lot to us. And thank you very much.

I know it sounds like the messages, the fruits of sponsorship as you get to watch the people you love die.

And

so, yeah, that's better not watch them. And it's, and I think

I, I shared all that I've, I've been through that with these guys and, and I think it's about growing up inside for me in a way that I didn't think I was capable of. So I'm going to tell a little different story about the fruits of sponsorship for me. And for me, I want to start off by saying when I got to the 11th step, my first time through the steps, when I was going in order

and I was reading the 11th step, I was at the point of my sobriety where I had done a fifth step and I had done a ninth step. Some of the work, not all of it, It took me 7 years to pay back all the money, but I did it every month and I did all that stuff. And I was starting to get to that place in myself where I could say to the newcomer, these steps are tools for living. And I meant it, you know, 'cause people would say that to me when I was new. And I look at the steps and go, well, why are they in Chinese? Man, I got problems, you know, and I'd read these steps and they didn't apply to my issues.

Yeah, but I was at the 11th step and it was hard for me. I didn't, I It wasn't the praying and meditation that bother me. It was prayed only for knowledge of God's will for me and the power to carry that out. Because I was raised in a very strict Catholic upbringing. Wasn't like my parents were religious zealots. I just went to Catholic school. So all day long I got that. And when I went to puberty and Catholic school, I had a lot of urges and feelings and thoughts that the nuns made it seem like if I were thinking that way,

I was going to burn in hell and God didn't like me. So when it got to the 11th step and I was a grown man and it said prayed only for knowledge of God's will for me and the power to carry that out, I didn't like that because it seemed ambiguous. First of all, I didn't know what that meant. What is God's will for me? And I didn't think God liked me. I believe that a power greater than me had gotten me sober and helped me stayed sober. But this relationship

and this communication really, really scared me and I'm not kidding at all. I went to my sponsor and said, I don't understand that.

What does that mean? How do I know God's will for me? And he was very kind about it. He didn't answer right away. He let me go on and think about it and, and I came back to him and I said, you know, I really, really do want to know what that means. And he said, you know, Matthew, I think maybe you're making this way too complicated,

said maybe, you know, when the alarm clock goes off, God's saying, get up. You know, maybe when Phoebe's diaper needs changing, God saying, hey, it's time to change the baby. And maybe when a bill comes in the mail and it says pay this amount, God said, hey, pay that amount. You know, maybe if you just do the next indicated thing, you can be sure you're doing God's will. And it seems really simple all these years later saying that, but it actually changed the course of my life

because I relaxed about God and his will for me. And I just did what was in front of Maine. I got up in the morning and I went to work. You know, I got this great job at an airline. It was a great job for me. It was a big step up from the loading dock where I worked the first year in my sobriety. And I got this job kind of through a A, so I couldn't really talk about how I got the job with my fellow employees. I didn't drink and I actually liked the job. So that made me unpopular at work

because they all thought it was hell and and they all went drinking afterwards to talk about what hell it was. And I couldn't, I didn't go drinking. I went home where I went to a late meeting and I was probably in my second year of sobriety

and on my way to work one day in the afternoon I stopped and I bought a guitar,

beautiful guitar, a Tailor Dan Curry model acoustic guitar. So some of the people in the room are jealous of me now

and I'm OK with that cuz I have self esteem. But

but, but I bought this guitar and I got to work and I didn't have anyone to show this guitar to because I wasn't the cool guy at work. I was not unpopular. I just didn't have a lot of friends and that was OK. You know, I had been the cool guy at work and I always got fired from those jobs. So I went to my work and I put the guitar on my locker and on my way out that night at 10:30, I went to the employee bus stop because at Los Angeles International Airport, there's AD bus and all the employees from all the airlines come out and they wait for this bus and it takes us to a parking lot that's off

the off the grounds of the airport. So I'm waiting at the D bus with this brand new guitar case with this beautiful guitar in it. And I'm dying to show somebody my new guitar. I'm bursting to show somebody. And this poor unsuspecting woman from British Airways comes and stands next to me and I turn to her and I say, hey, can I show you my new guitar? And she looked right in my eyes and said, I'm sorry, I don't look at strange men's guitar.

And she got on the bus and I was quite surprised by this. And so I got on the bus and unfortunately for her, it was a very crowded bus and we were pushed against each other. We had a guitar case between us, but she was this close to me

and I realized that I had made her uncomfortable and she had a book in her hand. I think it was Surprised by Joy by CS Lewis. It was one of CS Lewis's books. And I looked down and said, oh, I've read that book. And she said, we'll cut to the chase. Do you believe in God now? Look, I'm almost two years sober and I almost spit on her when I yelled God save my life.

And all the blood drained out of her face and, and I thought, jeez, man, calm down. And she really looked like I wish I could just disappear. I wish I could, you know,

make this guy disappear. And so I looked at her and I realized, oh, bad pickup line number two at the airport. And I calmed down and I said, what do you think? What do you believe? And she started talking. We talked about God, you know, And while we were talking, I noticed that she was really pretty. I had not noticed. I had not cared. I wanted someone to look at my guitar. It could have been Frankenstein if they would have just looked. And we talked and I calmed down and she calmed down. We had a really intimate little conversation. She did not believe in God. She was looking, searching,

investigating. And she was really pretty. She looked like Audrey Hepburn. She had this long, thin neck and his blue eyes. And we're talking. We get off the bus. And I said, hey, you know, I've had such a nice time with this conversation, and why don't we forget about this guitar and have dinner sometime? And, you know, she did not think so. She said, oh, right, yeah, look at my guitar. I've heard that. But I should be able to wait for a bus. This is my BAM.

And really, you know, it surprised me, and I kept thinking, this is bad, but just got such a cute little accent. And then she'd yell at me some more. And she stormed off.

He walked off, you know, and I knew that I had grown spiritually because I went to work the next day and I didn't tell anybody she was a lesbian.

It's nobody's business, right? I'm OK, She's OK. We're OK,

I'm just kidding, but it is the fruits of sponsorship. Actually, I'm not kidding, but what I'm trying, you know, because she rejected me, but I liked me. I had been doing a lot of actions in a A and I like my own company,

so I didn't have to, like, say stuff about it. I've got nothing against lesbians, by the way. I told this story at a meeting in the Pacific Palisades. And this woman comes up to me afterwards and she says, hello, Matthew, I'm a lesbian. And I said, that's great. And she said, you know how I know I'm a lesbian? I said, no, how do you know? And she goes, I'm not attracted to you.

And she walked away.

So I'm helping women discover their sexuality and Alcoholics Anonymous.

Anyway, so my point was, and why I'm telling this in the fruits of sponsorship section of this workshop, is I was comfortable with me. I had followed a lot of direction. I was helping other people. My life was bigger than my little ego, not much bigger, but a little bit bigger. And when I went to work the next day, I really thought about work. I don't really think about it was I had made her uncomfortable. I had said the wrong thing innocently, but I'd said the wrong thing.

So I worked all day and I went back to that bus stop and here she comes. And I'm like, oh, now I remembered I was rejected the night before. And I thought, I actually thought, hey, I don't have a guitar in my hand. Maybe she won't recognize me. And she tapped me on the shoulder. And I turned to her and she said, you know, I think I might have been rude to you. Would you like to miss this bus and have coffee? And we'll see how it goes. And it was almost, I don't know,

was not long, maybe three or four weeks later she proposed to me and we've been married now for 14 years.

Come on man,

that's better.

You know, a guy converts a lesbian, he should get a round of applause.

And I tell this story because this is absolutely my marriage is the gift, the gift to from God of my sobriety. I can't believe my luck. I cannot believe my luck. You know, when I told my sponsor before we got married, I said, you know, she's not blonde, she's not anorexic, she's not addicted to heroin. She's just really not my type.

And he said, yeah, you've changed. You've grown. My wife was completely not my type. She's self confident. She doesn't need me. And I always needed you to need me or I didn't think you really loved me. I have never lied to my wife. And that may not seem remarkable to you, but if you ask any girl I've ever dated is if I ever lied to them, I lied all the time because I was never enough for me. I was never enough of myself

for someone like that to be retracted to me and she was way out of my league. I still sometimes think she's going to wake up screaming and run out of the house.

But for five years, we had the most lovely time. And I wanted to say I did not get married where where I lived in in California because my mother was at this point really not going to live much longer. And my wife said, hey, your moms from Illinois, why don't we get her home one more time? Why don't we get married in Crystal Lake, where your family has a little lake house and everybody can come and your mom can go and be home before she passes away. That's what kind of woman my wife is. She's from Wales. It didn't matter to her.

We went to Crystal Lake, IL and we were in this house on a lake. It's little tiny house. It's been in my family. I think my grandfather bought it in 1922. It's just a little house with a big lawn right on a lake. And I got to stand out on this lawn and wait. My wife was inside getting ready to come out and be my bride. And I walked out on this pier and I looked up at this beautiful blue sky and I said to myself, thank you God that this is the next indicated thing

to do. Today

I got married. This amazing person, you know, because sometimes the next indicated thing isn't a dirty diaper, you know, sometimes the next indicated thing isn't an alarm clock. Sometimes the next indicated thing makes your heart blow up in your chest with joy like Jay talked about and Bill talked about. And that is a gift. That's a gift from the fruits of sponsorship from getting bigger than myself and my concerns so I can notice this person

and getting bigger than myself and my concerns so I could live peacefully with somebody who didn't do what I wanted all the time.

And we have had a wonderful life. We had five years of absolute bliss. We went to

we went to the hospital. I remember when my son was born, I actually took the pregnant woman to the right hospital, which, as you know, if you were here yesterday, it's a big step forward for me. And we had that joy, you know, and Bill had came to the hospital when, when my kids were born and, and we have had a couple of children and we traveled all over the place because we had flight benefits, because we work for airlines back then.

And then about five years into our marriage, I came home and I found my wife on the floor and she was really badly damaged. She had had a severe stroke. She's laying on the floor and her face is contorted and she doesn't look good. And I could tell that she'd had a stroke. So I ran and I called an ambulance and I came back to my wife and time just stood still. You know, I, I don't even know where my kids went, little kids. I had a one year old kid and a 5 year old

and I walked out of the house and I got in the ambulance. I didn't even look back. They somebody took care of my kids. I had to follow the love of my life.

I got disabled and I went to the hospital and they were so worried about her at this big metropolitan hospital, I live in a big city that they called a helicopter, and they flew us to a University Hospital to try to keep her from becoming more and more damaged right before their very eyes. So we flew to this other hospital. And that's when I realized, this is serious, man. I'm in a helicopter, you know, and we landed at this hospital. I'm trying to comfort my wife and she looks terrified.

We go in and they're going to do this operation and they're going to try to make it OK.

And they all are doing this operation and they walk away right in the middle. So clearly something happened and I thought she died and I ran into the operating room and the guy said there's nothing I can do. This this course is stroke is going to run its course. I can't stop it.

So I stayed with my wife and I got her into I see you. I'm sorry.

And it was like 4:00 in the morning maybe. And I walked downstairs and I waited till it was an almost decent hour and I woke up Bill and I called and said

feel about a stroke on what to do.

And Bill said something funny. He said, you know, man, they say there are no big deals in a A He goes, this is a big deal.

And it was like 5 in the morning, right? So I kept, I was, I wanted to know what do I do? What do I do? And he said, I want you to hang up and call Jay. I said I don't want to do that,

You're my sponsor, I want to talk to you. And he goes, please, please hang up the phone and call Jay.

So I hung up the phone and I called Jay and Jay woke up and he said he said something interesting too. I talked to him for a while

and, you know, I threw up on him all my what had just happened in the last 12 hours. And he listened to me and he said, hey, man, you've always wanted to be the world's greatest lover. Now is your chance.

Here's your opportunity.

And that really kind of changed the mood in me. And then he said, I want you to talk to my wife. I said I don't want to talk to your wife. I don't really want to talk to you. I want to talk to Bill is what I was thinking. But I said, okay, put her on. And Adele got on the phone and she said, hey Matthew, thank you for calling. It's 5:00 in the morning. She said I've had six strokes. I think I can tell you how your wife is feeling.

And I got experience.

I got experience

and I went back in that room and I knew what to do. I was going to be the world's greatest lover for a while

and I knew that my wife was feeling because I had Adele to talk to and find out what was going on inside of Adele, inside of Philippa. Well, I had just gotten this job and it was in 10 days I was going to have to go

to a Chicago from California to study for this job. And it was a four week course that I had to do this training. And I, I talked to these guys and said, man, I don't think I can go. And Bill said, why can't you go? I said my wife's and I see you Bill.

And he said, well,

I think he should go. He said, I think he should go. We can take care of your wife. And at this time, when I would come out of the ICU and walk into the lobby, almost always some of you guys were there, some of the guys from the Hermosa Beach Men Stagger. I've also belonged to a group in West LA. And they were just sitting there waiting for me. And there was a clear message that I was not going to be by myself, that I would not be alone.

So I couldn't believe it. But I agreed to go to Chicago, and Bill gave me another piece of advice, he said. When you go there,

don't tell this new company that just hired you and they're giving you this great salary and this great job. Don't tell him that your wife had a stroke and she's in the hospital. Don't be the new guy with problems.

I thought, OK, I didn't know if I could do that, you know, but I didn't even think I was going to get on the plane and go to Chicago. To tell you the truth, my wife was an ICU and she is the love of my life. And I thought I might. If I left her, she would die. If I left the scene, she wouldn't make it. I slept in her room. I slept in a hotel room across the street, and I only got a room that I could see her room from my room. That was my insistence. It was awful. It was awful. I would fall asleep and I'd wake up in the morning and think

like everything was OK. And then I remember, no, your wife is paralyzed and brain damaged in the hospital across the street.

So I went off to Chicago. I couldn't believe it. I went off to Chicago with these Smoes in charge of my wife

and I was shocked by my negligence. But I went and I didn't tell anybody. I didn't tell anybody that my wife was in the hospital. I just went to class and I study. We were in a big hotel with over 1000 people had been hired for this sales force and this pharmaceutical company. I've taken notes and because my life depends on I just, my wife just lost her job, right? And I'm writing and writing and then I'd run out on the brakes and I'd check my phone messages and there'd be 5 messages, 10 messages, sometimes 15 messages

every three hours from you guys, from these guys. Things like, hey, I put up your Christmas lights today. I hope you don't mind. I put up your Christmas tree. I saw Philippa. She looks so good. She looks so good, man, you're so lucky. She's so beautiful. How could I drink? How could I? I would have had to push 1000 people out of my way, hundreds of people to walk to the sports bar where everybody else was going

after class, to the sports bar where they were going and sleeping with people that weren't their husbands and went their wives.

And I was going up to my room praying my ass off that my wife would last long enough that I could get home and see her again.

And these are the fruits of sponsorship. These are the fruits. I can't tell you how uncomfortable it was to hear they put my Christmas lights up. I'm supposed to go, I'm supposed to go to the panel. I'm supposed to pick up the new guy. And now all these new guys are putting my Christmas lights up. It really kind of creeped me out. I didn't. It was like the somebody turned the funnel around and went, shit, it doesn't flow this way. It didn't seem like this was part of recovery, but it was absolutely part of recovery. I just had to learn to accept that.

So I want to tell you about a spiritual experience I had during this time. So I found a way that I could go home one weekend. I think I had been gone for two weeks and I'd been getting all these voice messages and I was talking to my wife five and six times a day, seven times a day, and talking to her at night. And all she would ever say is Get Me Out of this hospital. And I'm in Chicago. And the prognosis was not good. My wife had a very serious stroke or carotid artery tore and against inside wall of her carotid artery tore off.

And collapsed so she lost a big chunk of her brain tissue the fact that she could talk was a major thing and the fact that she was alive was a major thing. So getting her out of the hospital I didn't really wasn't concerned about that I just wanted to live. So I had two weeks into this studying all the time and being a a company guy and not letting on that my wife was sick. I, I worked that way so I could go home for the weekend and be with my wife. And I flew in on Friday night and it was late because I came from Chicago. I flew into after class I

to Santa Ana airport and I went, took a cab to the hospital and I couldn't wait to see my wife, who everybody said looks so good, you know, And I went into her room and she didn't look good. She looked terrible. She looked much worse than I remembered and much worse than I'd made her in my mind. And I was really surprised and I looked at her and she looked up at me and she wasn't the same. She had brain damage. She was injured. It was bad. I remember Jay,

whose wife had six strokes, took one look at her and said we got real problems here. This is problems

so he knew.

So I assured her that everything was fine. I stroked her hair and I crawled into bed with her and I fell asleep with my arms around my wife around 11:00 at night. And I woke up and I don't know, 4:30 in the morning. I remember it was before the sun came up and I woke up with a start and everything got really real all of a sudden and my heart started pounding and I was so afraid because I thought, Christ, I got a one year old kid.

I got a 5 year old kid. I've got Phoebe, 7 or 8 now. Phoebe, who's 10

and Philip is not ever going to be the same. She may never walk again. She lost the use of her left side of her body and she can't. Her brain is damaged. And I got this new job that I'm clearly not cut out for. It's way over my head. I'm an English major, this is all science. And I was terrified and I got up out of bed and I looked at her and she startled me. She looked crippled

and I wanted I picked up the soap and the shampoo and all the stuff the nurses had left for me and I started walking towards that shower and every time I take a step, I felt like I wasn't going to make it any farther. I felt so afraid because I thought, Christ, I can't do this. I can't do this. I'm not the man that needs that they need for this. I cannot support this family and this wife and do this job. And I walked and walked and I was so afraid. I don't know if I can't describe how afraid I was. It was I might, I was felt like I was going to implode.

I could taste metal in my mouth. I don't know if you've ever been that afraid, but that's what I remember from it. And I went into the shower and this is leading up to the spiritual experience I had. I took off my clothes and I turned the shower on and I got down on my knees and I prayed to God and I said to him, I said, God, you don't have to give me a lot of money. You don't have to heal my wife. But I need a little bit of power because I got nothing here. I'm not up to this,

I can't do it. And I stood up

and nothing had changed. I was filled with fear. I was a little cleaner, but no miracle. OK. And I thought, Christ, I just took a noodle to a knife fight. This isn't going to work at all. And I put my clothes back on, and I walked back. And every step, I thought, I'm going to have a nervous breakdown. And I thought while I'm in a hospital, maybe an OK spot for a nervous breakdown. And I kept walking and I kept thinking I felt like I was physically going to fall over. And I walked that into a room, and I couldn't see her. It was still too dark. And there the, there's a big picture

behind her and I couldn't see her. So I sat down on the chair next door and I closed my eyes.

And while I was sitting there with my eyes closed, I realized I could feel Phillipa in the room with me. I could feel her in my heart, in my body. I could feel her. And I was so surprised. And I thought, I wonder if this is like The Sixth Sense of being really close to someone and really loving someone openly that I can feel her. And I thought to myself, if I walk through a big house, a big mansion somewhere, and I were blind, I bet you I could find the room she was in

'cause I can feel her. And I stood up and I got next to her bed and I put my hands on the side of her bed and I looked out the window

and it was just getting light. So you could see these trees, a bunch of trees. And these birds like were like flitting from tree to tree. And it kind of startled me because I had been in such an orthopedic environment. And I looked out the window and saw this and I and I was awestruck. I thought, wow, the world is so beautiful. It's such a beautiful place. And I looked down at Philippa and she's very pale. She's from Wales. She's very pretty. And she had this, she has this pale skin and she was kind of glowing. I mean, I looked down at her and I was saw her,

see her, and she just seemed like she was glowing. And I thought, Oh my God, she's so beautiful

and I love her so much and there's No Fear. No Fear, not any at all. I was completely at peace and I realized I was surrounded by love and support

and I was lucky because I had a great love in my life and all I had to do was the next indicated thing and I was going to be fine. I didn't have to do it all at once. I just had to stand next to the hospital bed right then, and then the next thing, and then the next thing, and then the next thing. And that really is the fruits of sponsorship. You know, I got to share with you last night that I pushed a pregnant woman down a flight of stairs when she was 8 1/2 months pregnant and I didn't even think about it.

I dressed my wife every morning, I dress her and I undress her every night and I can't believe my luck.

How does that happen to us?

I don't know. Actions. You just do actions. That's what I know and that's my story. Nobody died

in my story and the fruits of sponsorship. Thank you.

There.

I love that story.

I love both those stories.

I've heard them

100 and dozens of times

and

and it's true

and it's true.

I

there really isn't anything else to say, but of course I will.

You know, we got, we got a few questions and and we'll do that, But I, I want you to know that the.

That the purpose of sponsoring is not top down.

It is not me imparting wisdom.

What I get to do is I get to share. Where I am really helpful is I get to share my scar tissue

and my job with my friend Bill.

I took a risk

and I honestly told him

all the problems that I'd had in my first six years of sobriety.

I told him

and I told him things about myself that I wish weren't true.

And as we have gone along, I have told him the truth about what it's like to be on the path this much further down than you.

And the purpose of that is not, you know, in the beginning it was, you know, hoping that he would not make the same mistakes. He's made the same mistakes. Some he's made even better than I have,

but it was so that maybe he would not have to suffer as much and that ultimately what he would be is a better member of Alcoholics Anonymous than I am.

And that maybe, if we're really lucky,

that when he works with others, that he would have the gift of my experience

and his experience and be able to pass it on to another man who would end up being a better member of Alcoholics Anonymous than either I or he is.

And that hopefully

God will use Matthew

and there will be other members of Alcoholics Anonymous that are better than we are. And that's what sponsorship is about.

It's about us raising

the consciousness of this movement that we're in. The Alcoholics Anonymous that I came was a movement that was about not drinking. You put the plug in the jug and everything's fine.

And that is true. But what's happened is, is this movement has been used to raise the spiritual consciousness and the awareness of an entire

UH-75 years. Now. We are growing ineffectiveness and understanding. We are growing in numbers and power. And if you come to my Home group, we have 16 year old guys that stand up and identify as an alcoholic and we believe them.

We don't sit back and judge them. We believe them. And you know what happens? Those young men stand by the door and when a young guy comes in, they, they, when old guys come in, they grab them. They don't give a shit. Oh, new guy got him and they take him home and they open the book and they work with them. And when you see a 45 year old guy going like this with his 22 year old sponsor, it is heaven on earth.

It's a lot of people that say that Alcoholics Anonymous is not as effective as it used to be in all that stuff. That's not my experience at all.

AA is as vibrant and as effective as it has ever, ever been.

And but you need to pay attention to your experience. You need to look at what it is we're talking about.

And as it says in our book, the only people that we're talking about are those who come and really try,

not those who come and justice happen to get a court card signed or any of that kind of stuff. We're talking about those who try, and those who try get

you knock. The door is open.

It's no. It's no secret. It's no secret.

So I've got a couple questions that seem to me to be related or I will interrelate them. So I'll work with these and then you can play with whatever you want to play with.

What are your thoughts regarding relationships in early sobriety? I have scar tissue

So what are your thoughts? This seems to be in the same handwriting.

What are your thoughts on same sex sponsorship?

Does it matter if both parties have long term sobriety and are and significant age difference?

Bill's very interested in that one.

And do you need

a face to face sponsor or will a telephone sponsor supplies?

Well, let's see when,

when we say don't get in a relationship in your first year,

what we're trying to do is we're trying to save just a little bit of blood.

We're not trying to eliminate the amount of fun you're going to have. We're not saying don't have fun. What we're trying to say is please don't get contractually involved and please use a condom, please. It's very important

because otherwise I'll just be a lot more stuff. Now with me, I was tendon bar. I had maybe 8-10 weeks sober and this woman came in and I served her and she wanted what I had and, you know, and later on she wanted even more what I had. And

she said that she wanted to come to a A. So I took her to Alcoholics Anonymous and, and, you know, took her around to all the meetings. And I wasn't taking advantage of a newcomer because I was a newcomer. And besides, we'd been involved before she came to a A so I wasn't, I wasn't hitting on any new person. And I introduced her to all the, all the old timers, you know, and taught her to sit down in the brain damage section and, and all that stuff. And after, you know, she really started to sober up, maybe 3-4 months, she left me

for another woman and then brought her to the meetings

and sat her down, you know, and so I learned out in LA, we do things where we drive by the parking lot to see whether or not we can go in the meeting and see whether their cards there or not. So just one of my little things and, and what we're saying is, is that the people that you'll be involved with, that you get involved with in your first year of sobriety are not going to be the kinds of people that you will be involved with in your second, third or fourth year of sobriety. It's just a function of physics about what it is that we're able to do.

And

you know, so that's, that's my experience about that. And that's what I share with the guys. I'm not saying don't have fun. You can have fun. You can have a lot of fun, but make sure that you both agree that this is what the parameters of fun are and don't go. My wife has a very nice way of putting it. She said don't you dare

go dating a woman who's got less than six months sobriety. She said if you need a date that bad, go into the hospital and pull her out of the room, have sex with her and put her back in there. That's what it what it is you're doing.

So just a little little thing. And I think she says a year actually. But,

um, so, um,

and the women take care of the women.

And

so there's that part, the other part about,

about different sex sponsorship, you know, in other words, do I sponsor women? Frank Buckman, the guy who started the Oxford Group, the first person that joined as a as a team member, was a woman because he said men's work is with men and women's work is with women.

And I go along with that. Do I know guys who sponsor women? Yes,

some of them are older Paternal

seem to be able to do it

and get away with it.

Not get away with it seemed to be able to do it,

but the people that they work with, the men that they work with that then emulate their sponsors seem to have difficulty with it. And I've seen a lot of difficulty with that. So there are, are there exceptions to every rule, of course, but as a rule of thumb, you know, I mean, guys were just about that deep.

I mean, that's it. We're about that deep and, and,

and it just, you know, and the other thing is, is that my wife would be deeply offended

if I ever did that. And she said as such. So I'm a real big fan of men's work for men and women's work for women. And again, there are some people who may be able to do it, but I it just as a rule of thumb, in 30 years, I've seen a lot more damage done by people that weren't spiritually equipped for it to do it. Then, then I've seen good happen. But that's that's and the final thing is about

non face to face sponsor. I had an opinion.

My opinion was

you need to be face to face with your sponsor.

And then I was at a conference speaking and there was a woman who got up and she talked about how she was living in rural Georgia, some kind of Atlanta thing again. And, and she, she'd been around Alcoholics Anonymous for a while. And she was, she was despondent and was going to kill herself. And she listened to a tape and heard this woman talk. And she called the woman up and asked her if she'd help her. And the woman said yes and that they got together once a week and they worked the steps on the telephone.

And

so I had an opinion. And then I heard somebody that had real experience. And then a while later, I was up in a rural area in Washington on an island where they had a tradition of having sponsors off island. A guy asked me, I said yes. And we started doing this thing on the phone once a week, going through the book, a guy who had time. I'm not talking about somebody that's coming off a drunk. And, and it worked out very well. It worked out very well. And I started saying yes. And so I sponsor people in other areas. And now the technology is such that, you know, I mean, I get calls from New Zealand. I get calls

from Iceland, I get calls from the Netherlands, I get calls from, I mean, my wife sponsors people in Belgium. I mean, we've got folks all over and we're using Skype and we're using all the different things that are available to us in it. And, and it's fine. Now all the people that most of the people we're working with are folks that have been sober a while, who've been through the thing who want, you know, what we've got, which is long term sobriety. My wife, the woman that she's working with in Belgium