Workshop called

There's a

there was something that was brought up here and that was the difference between a harm and hurt feelings. In

here's an example of that. I had a business partner

and we,

I was the senior partner

in the.

He found out when he got in their business that he was afraid to, to do what he had to do, which to was to go out and find new business and basically do a lot of selling.

And so I wound up doing about 90% of the of the

business

and he felt really bad about it and spent most of his time

apologizing to me for not being able to do what he needed to do to make the business successful.

And and then he would go out and have lunch with his friends and talk about how much money he was making.

And that went on for some time and he wouldn't let it go. So I fired him,

um, and

then his brother talked him into suing me for four and a half million bucks.

Yeah, I didn't think that was very nice. And

and for the longest time I felt like I owed him an amend for firing him

because when I when I did fire him, he really felt bad.

And I thought, well, I caused that. And so I must have some culpability in the middle of this and, and I kept trying to find some way to,

to make that right.

And I kept going. I kept, I probably went to three or four different people and said, tell me what the harm is in that. I know there's some harm, I just don't know how to get to it.

And they said you didn't harm him,

you just took him away from something he didn't want to do.

And the fact that you fired him just meant that as a pure business decision. He had no business working there

and and I said, well, apparently he thinks differently because the son of a bitch sued me for four and a half million bucks. And then I'll tell you one other thing about that, and that is the line in the book that says we avoid retaliation and argument.

And so I had a good friend. In fact, it was Lisa's husband

in. I would not defend myself against this lawsuit because it says we avoid retaliation and argument.

And so I just was kind of letting it go along and I was really worried about it. And Lisa's husband came up and said the best defense is a good offense. And he was running a large law firm in Denver at the time.

And he said I have a litigator over here that can stop this in its tracks in the 1st 15 minutes.

And I said great. And a week later I wasn't being sued anymore.

So.

So you have to be clear about the harm. Anyway, that's the point of this in that don't,

don't be spending your time running around thinking you were a Genghis Khan or you know that you harmed everyone that you'd ever met in your life or whatever. Be real clear about what the harm is and then go try and balance it. And most of the time what you want to do is,

is have some idea about how you can balance that before you ever get there.

Now one other thing that I should mention,

and that is that

if you have the courage,

what you may want to do on the end of your amend is to say, have I harmed you in any manner that I'm unaware of?

Then hang on to your hat.

When I did that with my first wife, I isn't like I've been married a lot of times, but I've been married twice. And with my first wife I said is there any way that I've harmed you that I'm unaware of? And she said, now that you mention it,

and went on for about the next hour and a half

and she wasn't done.

And I had to go to, I was had some sort of appointment that I had to get to. And and I said, I I'll give you a call and we'll find a time and you can tell me whatever it is that that you haven't had the opportunity to yet. And I called Don and I said, let me tell you what's going on with this. And he said, OK. And I said I think it's a little abusive.

Well, only because I think she was really angry at me

and it was about, it was about, let me show you what I'm going to do to you.

And at some point it sort of lost

something in the translation because it was, no, it was just pure anger after a period of time. So he said call her up and tell her, give her an appointment

in an tell her you'll sit down with her for an hour

and that she ought to consider anything that she hasn't told you so far

and figure out some way to pack that into the next hour. And then you go listen to it. So that's what I did. And at the end of that everything was done. OK, so

sometimes you can run into some people who are really angry at whatever you did to them

and just be reasonable about what you're willing to listen to. And if it goes past the business of amends and gets to abuse, stop. You don't

make an amends is not taking a beating

right? It's balancing the books.

So that woman, I said. Is there anything else I can do

that to, to make this right? And she said, yeah, marry me again.

Lord, protect us,

You just

so.

Most of my immense these days are. They're important, but it's about little,

almost embarrassingly pedestrian things.

It just

I had to make amends to my kids. Why after I was divorced the last time

and I thought now here's how your ego works. OK, my my ex-wife or was then my wife, we were going to get a divorce and she said you need to move out. And I the only reason why I hadn't moved out before that was because I didn't want,

I didn't want to, to damage my kids any more than they already were damaged. They weren't damaged that badly, but I mean it.

And so

so she said you need to move and now it seemed to be slow and moving. So she went and got a boyfriend and that cut it.

God damn. And

so I moved out. And as soon as I moved out, here's what my ego told me

my I had started a new business and it wasn't making a lot of money. And all of a sudden, I thought I was going to be living under a bridge

in. And so I went, rented a, or at least a two-bedroom townhouse

and I got three kids

and, and I thought, these kids are going to hate me. My business is going to fail. I'm going to be living under a bridge. I'm going to be broke for the rest of my life. You hear my ego?

It's always

OK.

So I rented this townhouse

and and I got up and went to work every day and the business wound up being the largest of its type in the state

and and I went from being almost flat broke to to being financially secure. OK. And it was

in any way I had to make amends to my sons. And the amend that I had to make to him was that I was so obsessed with my dislike of their mother

that I wasn't. I wasn't giving them the attention that they deserved. That's my fault.

And so my amend to them was I'm going to be absolutely the best father that I can be to you, and I'm going to do everything I can to enhance your life, every day of my life.

And

my two youngest, I have twin boy. I have five sons, but the two youngest

our seniors in high school this year,

163 and 2:30. The other 164 and 2:40

in the 631 has been the starting nose tackle on the Arapahoe High School football team for the last three years. Ever since he was a soccer. Because he is. He gets he's a sweet kid, but he gets on a football field and everybody better duck.

And he played the nose tackle on defense.

And this year

when they were

honoring all the seniors,

you go out on the football field with them and they introduce the player and the as his parents on both sides. And my ex-wife and I were standing on both sides of them

and they said this is Alex Olson

and he's an honor student. He's been the starting nose tackle for the last three years.

He is going to Colorado State University and the most influential person in his life is his dad.

I didn't know they were going to say that.

Jesus. I mean, I, you could have pushed me over with a feather right in the middle of that football field,

but I found something out

and that is that they didn't have to grow up here in what I grew up with.

And what I grew up with is your stupid, your clumsy, you're going to wind up in a prison or an institution. You'll never amount to anything. You can't, you'll never be a success at anything. That's what I grew up with. And see, I don't talk to my kids that way because every time,

every time you say something to a kid, it's like planting a seed.

And because you are an authority figure, they're going to take that seed and they're going to fertilize it and they're going to water it and they're going to protect it even though it's the worst God damn lie that they ever heard.

So when you talk to children, what you tell them is you're handsome, you're smart, you have the whole world in front of you. Don't let anyone tell you that you're less than you are. You are bright and successful young person who has the whole world in front of you

and they believe it.

My my 21 year old son is graduating in May from Southern Methodist University with a straight A average in engineering.

He took the Lsat's which is the precursor for law and scored a 99.9. He's now being pursued by Harvard Law School with a full scholarship and a stipend to live on while he's there, plus about 20 other major universities. And all that kid ever heard when he was growing up

was you're smart, you're handsome, you're successful,

You can be anything you want to be. And all you got to do is go out there and risk, take the chances. Don't be afraid of anything. You can do it, OK?

Thank God I don't have to make amends to my kids for telling them that they couldn't do stuff.

Tell kids if you're going to talk to them

that they can do anything and they're going to believe you because you're their parent.

It makes a huge difference.

So

the other thing is and it's, you know, it was true in my case and I I think that it and it was true in Gary's case. And that is if you own a men make it

right. Don't wait.

The time you make amends is now

in and then maybe you don't have to be sitting by some headstone trying to talk to someone that's already passed.

So thank you.

Any other questions

coming?

So

how do you go about making a mess of someone who's dead?

Uh, I know of two instances and they seem to have been both helpful.

Remember Bill? Boom.

A number of years ago, a friend of ours

in Denver

had a friend who had been instrumental in the death of his baby

and was asking how to make the event and how to go about it.

And

with a lot of prayer. And many of us were asked, none of us knew.

And somebody told him to go

and write that child a letter

and tell him everything he ever wanted to tell him,

and put a lot of prayer and thought into it to do that. And

he did. And he wrote the letter and then he went back to the sponsor and he said, now what I do, he said, I want you to put an infant in an envelope and address it to yourself

and drop it in the mailbox.

And he did that

and when he got the letter back,

he was told

some of the words had been changed in the letter.

Believe it or not, it's her work for them.

One of my better friends in Indianapolis, the fellow named Earl and

Earl and his drinking had been thrown out of the house and he had not been a nice husband. I don't think he'd ever been violent. But

he could beat you to death with words, and they're living separated. And when

one day he got a call from his wife, of course she had the kids,

she said, come over to the house, I need to talk to him. And so when he went up on the steps and they rang the doorbell, he heard a boom. And she blown her brains out and,

and oh, there was hell to pay for that. And he was. He was never arrested, but he was certainly

thought that of about maybe he'd killed her

and that and first time I'd ever had a spot see that was dealing with stuff like that. After he came in

and

I must have listened to 1/2 a dozen

inventories about him and he's writing about her. And it was resentment was because she'd had an affair with his best friend.

He went over that and over that. We would discuss it

and

and finally one day and after a meeting, I cornered him and I fired him and I said I can't help you, you won't listen to me. I said you owe that girl and a man. Then you need to get it made

and and

I'm done. I can't help you.

And I left and about 3 days later I got a call from him and he said can come on and see. And I said yeah. And he came over and he sat down and he said I want to to the graveyard and I found her grave and I sat down at the stone and I must have talked to her for four or five hours, he says. I didn't stop crying for two days

and he made them in and those have been fine since.

I don't know what else you could do then. Neither one of those instances

with that, The guy that told me the story about the baby is a guy. I believe they're very believable guy. He was not necessarily one of our gang, but he was assaulted. The person that you could ever meet

with that, and I know what Earl told me, Earl and I talked on the phone. He lives down in Mexico now, but

we talk every day.

Part of my reviewing everyone. I go through the steps as a whole as I review my amends and I review the people out there with that that I might have owed one. And I look at my parents and they've both been long gone. And what I reconsider all of that stuff,

and

I'd like to be the point with my amends and that sort of thing that

if somehow I should know that I'm going to be gone in the next 30 minutes, I'm absolutely ready.

Don't know anybody. Nothing.

Don't want to leave anybody out there if I can be of help to them. I don't. It's not that I want to go. That isn't it? But I'd like to know, OK, if God's ready, I'm ready. And that's what it is. And that's one reason to keep looking and keep trying to find out.

Let me give you an example of that. Five years ago

I went out like I walk a lot. So I went out in the morning and walked five miles and then I thought, well, I'm going to go play golf. So I I went and played nine holes of golf and carried the bag. And then I had a doctor's appointment, so I went to the doctor. He said

how's everything going? And I said I have indigestion, which seems to happen more often now. And he said you needed treadmill. And I said why? And he said because many times angina

masquerades as

has indigestion.

And I said, I don't have any heart disease in my family.

And I did all this stuff this morning and I'm still standing here. And he said, I don't care, I want you to take a treadmill anyway. So I did. And I took this thing called a thallium treadmill where they shoot you up with a radioactive isotope. Oh, swell. And you think you're going to start going in the dark?

And, and I went over and I took this treadmill and the guy

there was watching it said there's something wrong here. And I said, well, I don't feel like it's wrong. And he, so he had this doctor look at it

and the doctor said we need to do angiogram on you where they stick this thing in your groin and then I look at your heart go up through some sort of vein or whatever. And they did that right and run like right away. And there was this little Oriental lady that was a cardiologist that was doing it

and and then I was watching it and fell asleep because I thought it was boring as hell. So

when I woke up, there was a different cardiologist standing next to me and he said, can I be candid with you? That's not a good way to start a conversation with a cardiologist.

And I said sure. And he said you have one artery that's completely blocked, one that's 95% blocked and one that's 85% blocked, and you're having a triple bypass at 7:00 AM tomorrow morning.

Oh,

and he said,

he said, is that,

is that a scary proposition for you?

And I told him no. And I was perfectly candid. They said no, it's not. And he said, well, I don't hear that very often.

And he said, why not? And I said, because I don't have a lot of unfinished business here,

which is exactly what Gary just said. You know, I go today.

I'd like to watch my kids go to college

at the very least. I mean, I'd like to see him get married and have children do all that stuff. They probably won't be around for all of that,

but I don't have any unfinished business here. I've made my amends.

I'm living a life that I think is productive

and and I think that all things considered, that it's been a positive experience for both me and the world.

Now, that's an awful thing to say, but I work very hard at doing that.

So, you know, when I was, when I was 58, I think I was, I'd come down with diabetes and I was floating in and out of a coma.

And that's what I thought about as my life made an ounce of difference.

Seeing at some point you may have to ask yourself the same question.

And I'll tell you, that's a hell of a motivator to start doing something positive with your life

and start trying to make someone elses life better. And we're going to talk about this in a moment, but you know, in the 11th step, there's a plan for the day.

Two of the things that are on my plan for the day, every every day.

Number one is be happy because I have to work at that. Isn't that awful?

I thought you ought to just do that naturally.

And I have to get up and work at being happy.

And so I do. And the other, the other thing that's always on that list is try to make someone else's life better every day

because that's our real purpose here.

So

I think you and I talked on the phone while you're on the Gurney waiting to go in for that bypass.

We may very well have.

Remember, I was kind of surprised when you told me that's where you're at, right?

Step 10, I guess.

Many years ago,

back in Denver,

Don and Mickey and I were having a conversation

about the 10th step,

and we decided we were going to do it precisely like it says. We're just right down to the gnats eyebrow where we're going to get this thing and just do it perfectly. And,

and so

we were at that point in time one of the few times that were all three of us were, were available to be on the telephones

during the day or any other time. And so we thought we would just, we would just

do that. And I can give you a couple examples how that would work. I had a partner back then in the business, that

laptop,

I just, I just, she drives me nuts, just just crazy. And she'd been away from the business for a year, recovering from breast cancer.

And when she came back at some things

hadn't been run in the office. Well, I had spent

that use the company credit card to buy some personal things for myself and that and that seemed to irritate her and

and I hadn't been hard enough on some of the employees on her side of the business. They should have sold more and done more work and just about on and on and on. And it never quit. I made all those things right and I did my best with it and it just never could. And so I just had my days and and and I remember day I called Don

and

I said I'm going to kill TJ.

And and that says really? He says, yeah. He says, so where have you been selfish in this? But when you're that angry, that's what you don't want to talk about is where I've been. I'll guarantee that's not what you want to think about.

And so you got to stop all this ranting and raving long enough to figure out what it is. And in the middle of that anger, that's very difficult to do. And so I finally come up with an answer that seemed to satisfy me again. And he says, where have you been dishonest?

Go through it again

and resentful and where was I afraid? And so the time we get down and we get through that, I've pretty well done with that. And I discussed it and the only thing he, I don't remember him asked me if I'd asked God to remove it because the answer would have been hell no, I haven't asked God to remove it. And but but we went it that day and he said you're an Amanda. Yeah. And he says, what is it? And so I spelled it out

and then he had some intuition that I don't know many people that had it.

He said, wait for me, I'll come down there and and when you go, make it. And so he came out there to the office there and

sat outside TJ's door while I went in to make their man and all that. And that was, I mean, you paid a price to go make an amendment and I did and I apparently did it properly. And so that night we went up to Denver General Hospital and we hustled drunks there on the detox ward. If you don't get the opportunity to do that these days because they won't let you on the wards. But going on guys on the detox wards or ain't looking for a 12 step call is really a kick. And

it can be a great time, but if he and Mickey and I started to do that and we, we started this thing that that Bob calls having ten step buddies and, and, and that worked real well for us for and it really did. And then when I moved to Indianapolis and all that fell apart and and Mickey's situation had changed and that

Don was about my only 10th step buddy for a long time. But we did it long distance for for for a long time

and he went on to be trustee and I would get calls from some of the damnedest places to listen bus. But they're just so important and just take it literally. It's just not complicated. The keywords. Let me see that's it really did

this. This thought brings us to step 10. What am I doing that I can't see that?

Oh, which suggests we continue to take personal inventory and continue to write any new mistakes as we go along. We vigorously commence this way of living. As we cleaned up the past, we've entered the world with the Spirit. Our next function is to grow and understanding and effectiveness. It's not an overnight matter to continue for our life. Continue to watch for selfishness, dishonesty, resentment and fear. And Wendy's crop up. We ask God

for the keywords of the next two words

at once.

OK, OK.

To remove them, we discussed discuss them with someone immediately

and make amends quickly. If we have harmed anyone, then we can resolutely turn our thoughts to someone we can help. Love and tolerance of others as our cold

and, and I see those as a keyword.

And I tried to do that, but I still write my tenth steps. I just, I have never learned to write inventory. And we were taught to write inventory and I read this test step, but I didn't see anything about that. I don't have to write it anymore just because it's a tenth step, but so I still write my inventory. So I take a few minutes out anymore to do that. And you know, you've done that for a while. It's easy. You don't have to worry about the drama. You can get right down to the good stuff here,

get down to the meet up and do it. And

but that that's my my 10th step thing

very much most of the time. And most of my 10th step buddies are guys in Indianapolis that I hang around consmit. Some of them. I don't know if you ever met Jim, but

and Earl and these guys that we just do that with. Some of you know mine, but

that's really important and I've gone down the list to make sure I could catch one right away.

If no, I'm not going to wait for Mike to get back in town, you know, and

I have a friend there. I'm going to be out of out of step here just a little bit. I have a friend, a man I sponsor for the whole about the whole time I've been in indie in Indianapolis.

His name is Jim, and Jim is one of those foxes that came in that

it was a fighter

and you told him the book said to do something. His answer was bullshit. 8 out of 10. And I like those guys better than the guys that do that just sitting on OK

'cause you'll never get them to do a damn thing. But the fighters, you're more likely to get them going.

And and we fought around the third stay

and

he's at the third step and we've been talking about God and he's denying the God angrily. He's got a resentment of God that we can't do it yet. He's got to do that. And he's driving. There's Interstate 465 to 60 mile highway that circles Indianapolis and he's screaming around that Hwy. 9000 miles an hour. And he finally stops and goes home. He said don't give me this stuff about this again. He says I'm getting tired of I've been driving around the Interstate like that hollering at God

call him in a know good so and so and all, and if I let him rant for me, don't tell me there's there's any God. He said I know, but I just went around did that and I said, well, who are you hollering at?

He said God. I said there must be a God.

He gave me a two year, two word answer and slam the phone down

and,

and then and then and then he finally, he finally gets it and he moves on. And I don't know how many of his inventories I've listened to over

there. He's the one that caught on the four column inventory right away and can be just as insightful and, and Tom knows him. He's sitting over there nodding about him. He's one of these guys that can really get down to the to the meat and that and a tremendous sponsor and work with tons of people and

very effective with the Vietnam vets who come back who are dealing with all the things they're dealing with. And Jim's very effective girls because he can show them he dealt with some horrible stuff just just through our our close steps

did that well. He's

funny, whatever it is. 34 years sober now and

is dying from a disease in a multiple systems atrophy. And that just means that there's these automatic systems in your body that's running are atrifying, they're just shutting down.

And he's been for the last two years going going through that. And he's horizontal most of time now in a wheelchair of the bed.

And he's on the phone 810 hours a day, working the paper still.

And

last Tuesday I went instead of going to my Home group, I went and sat with Jim and we had our own damn meeting. We didn't need them. Other guys

a great time and I and I watch him go through this stuff and he's spending most his time looking at his 10th step and meditating

and he loves it when you come over and just want to sit and meditate with him.

But we still are 10 step buddies

because he'll get some more resentment going anymore. It's pretty much a God

and maybe if the people delivering the oxygen to it

or whatever it is, but he's quick to do the 10th step and to move on.

I learned a part about sponsorship I didn't know here these last couple years. It is another guy named a Dick Martin. He's 28 years sober that I closed up and

and sponsored all this time and all that. And he said major surgery on his brain a couple times. And I'm the one that's been given the power of attorney to make the calls and things aren't going well.

I didn't know that was going to be a part of sponsorship

by God, isn't it? And

but I'm glad to do it.

And I just think it's part of this deal that God's lined up for us to do that.

And only talking about that around the 10th step right now because I can't get Jim out of 1011 and 12.

He's one of the most capable sponsors I've ever known. And 12 steppers and 10 steppers

and, and all of that. And it's just so much a part of his life. He doesn't get out of bed necessarily to do it, but he'll be just as clear as you can be with where he's being selfish, dishonest, and sinful. Or Friday and

go through that and I'd rather who can you help right now

and because for mine and he's got it. He's got a spot see we laugh about and all that. It's his biggest pain in the neck he causes its high highest maintenance. Swansea.

I guess I better call Elliot,

and he does, but

I think I gave 10 and 1112 pretty poor attention. An awful big part of my life in a A.

And it certainly does not replace the regular inventory.

And

can't remember who it was, but we're sitting in a meeting sometime in the past, Bob and somebody said, well, I just maintained my life now on 1011 and 12. And some woman in the group said, oh really?

And I've never been able to do that. I still have more to do, no matter how quickly I try to seem to look at 10

and the selfishness and the dishonesty and the resentment and the fear.

The business about taking four steps regularly has to do with a line in the book that says a business that takes no regular inventory sure to fail.

And you can take your 10 steps and you can work 10:11 and 12:00. But unless you're perfect at it,

and I've never met anyone like that,

eventually it's going to really be helpful to write inventory,

Umm, on the end of the 10th step. How many of you were at that meeting last night?

OK,

at the end of the 10th step,

it talks about carrying the vision of God's will into all our activities.

And that's a that's a wonderful exercise. And if you have enough presence of mind to do it, when you get up in the morning as part of your daily plan to make carrying the vision of God's will and all your activities, it really makes your day run easier. Because every time you change activities, if you say, God, please help me to take a vision of your will into this activity with me

that just seems to

even out your day.

And that that helps you in the 11th step. Because the 11th step is about staying, staying in a spiritual sense through the day. Now the 10th step

spiritually is about being here. Now when it it says continue to watch, all right, continue to watch with selfishness, dishonesty, resentment and fear

in a great deal about the 10th step is about being aware about seeing what's going on around you. And you know, there are some great proponents of that. Ram Das, Eckhart Tolle, all those guys wrote books about be here now, be in the present moment. This is the only place you have to live. Don't live in the future. Don't live in the past. Live in the present moment

and that's what the 10th step is about is about. Be here now

and watch what's going on and be aware of what's happening around you. That's what that's about.

It's been invaluable to me to have ten step buddies that I've asked permission to call and and that I can call anytime I'm in doing any of those things. I mentioned last night that probably 80% of what you're going to talk about in a ten step is fear.

Although it talks about selfishness, dishonesty, resentment, and fear, the thing that you're going to talk about most is fear

in in telling someone that you're afraid. And then they're going to go through this exercise that Gary described.

And one of the things that it does is it lends perspective to what's going on with you.

So you may have this perspective where everything's gone to hell and and you may have no reason to believe that. And so people, if they're an unaffected third party, it are going to tell you. Why would you ever believe that

that doesn't work? That isn't what it looks like to me.

And so a part of that whole process, other than sharing it with someone, has to do with gaining perspective about what's going on. There's an enormous amount of value. I also mentioned last night that most new people don't like to tense. That

and the reason why most new people don't like the 10 step is that they're still protecting their ego,

which means I'm not going to let you see me because it's going to embarrass me and you're going to think that I'm not very good at this.

You know, it's like being 36 years sober and expecting to be perfect. Ain't going to happen.

Maybe at 45, but

you know we need an outlet for that. And if you're too damn embarrassed to tell people what's going on for you, you're missing the point.

Allow someone else to see you. There is a great spiritual benefit in allowing other people to see you. Drop your defenses

and let somebody know what's going on. You know, one of the great, one of the great benefits of this program is having some people around you that know who the hell you are.

You know, we all have this basic belief that we're not good enough. Nobody ever defines it because they say good enough for what?

We just say we're not good enough. That's a, that's an emotional trap, OK?

We all think we're not good enough. And if we don't put some sort of facade up in front of us that people are not going to accept us because we have this basic belief that by ourselves,

why should they? So we got to kind of put some window dressing out there. We got to put a bow on it

so so we become acceptable. That's bullshit. You're just fine. You know, we're not who we can be, but we are who we are today and we're a hell of a better than we were in the past.

So why are we embarrassed about who we are

That falls, that all falls back on what we believe about ourselves.

You're just fine. You know, there's some work to be done, but that's part of this deal,

So. So don't be embarrassed to be who you are.

You were one of God's children and God made you uniquely

with these skills and abilities. And for you to say I'm just, you know, I'm kind of embarrassed to tell you who I am, it's like slapping God in the face.

Why would you? You're just fine. But let somebody know who you are.

And that's what the 10th step is about. So I can kind of stay clean. But the problem is that my ego rebuilds itself. It becomes resurgent and over time it overcomes my 10th step.

It overwhelms my 10th step and all of a sudden I'm back into

into the. What do you call them in the

the bedevilments?

And then I know it's time to take inventory.

OK. So you know that thing in the back by Herbert Spencer about?