Workshop called

We're going to try and talk a little louder so you can hear us. Now. Can you hear us?

No,

Well, I don't know what the hell to do if you can't hear me now.

So anyway,

it Rusty's gonna try and turn things up without getting feedback, and we're gonna try and talk as clearly and as loudly as we can.

So everybody

getting here,

all right,

please

you.

I think just a quick comment,

I am hoping we had the question where all these years later

and all this experience with the steps of what do you do now? The man asked. Over here, he's through the night step and would like to maintain the level that he is at and what do we do to do that and all that? Well, first thing we've learned is we can't do that.

That's right.

That isn't going to happen. And that's really not what life is about. It's an ongoing thing.

So it just kind of moving on here, I think

don't know that I specifically talked about it, but I know I many times

and making either a conscience or a semi conscious review of my first and second steps.

And every time I sit down at least once a year to go through the steps again, that's where I start. And I look at that. I'll ask myself if I can drink

and take an honest look at that. You know, what kind of power do I really think I have

left on my own device?

Bob touched on on that as well earlier. So that's a constant of my life, constantly looking at the the second step, primarily through the bedevilments on page 52 of the book.

That has been probably the most useful tool I've had and taking a quick look to see how how I'm doing.

You know how many people out there I'm really not getting along with? Can I control my emotional nature

on Interstate 25 at 7:00 in the morning

so that some things just kind of go on?

I was asked out there

tell the story of

a little bit.

We got this idea to start going through the book and the steps and

we've gotten this far. We'd read in the book through the 3rd and 4th chapter and we're beginning in the 5th chapter. And

as I, as I recall it, and we got to a place where

one of the guys in the group just before we started to read about the third step prayer had had this idea.

And at this point, we have been pretty diligent about going through the book and the step and Lee had this idea. Little little bitty was Lee was a little bitty wise ass. And he was, he was always saying kind of something silly and had lunch with him last summer and I reminded him that I got six months sobriety on him. And

but he had this idea that he wanted us to

read slash pray the third step prayer together. And that the reason he wanted to do it, that he had attended many meetings there for a while and many of them were on written inventories, on an inventory. And he would ask people after the meeting why they hadn't written an inventory, and many of them told him because they'd not taken the third step yet.

And his idea was that, well, if we all set it together

and then a couple weeks later somebody would ask him why he hadn't written an inventory yet. And he told him that because he's not taking a third step yet, we could call him a damn liar.

And we understood that kind of logic

up until that point.

I kind of remember it was a Co Ed group. But by the time we, and I'm not sure why I do that, but it seems like there was some women around and maybe I was hoping

anyway. And anyway, we're down to 14 men at that point.

And so we had read in the big book and

got right up to that step and looked at, in fact, I think we read through it, we said,

because there was a line down there at the bottom. I've never forgotten. That said, we might want to discuss this with somebody else before we abandoned ourselves utterly to God utterly. Isn't that a great word? If that ain't giving it up, what is utterly giving it up? And

well, effectively we went ahead and did that. Now speaking for myself, we've got to that point and I seem to be a general agreement that we would stand up and join hands and read, slash, pray the third step prayer together.

And so that's what we did.

I did it because everybody else did it. I don't

why Bob did it, but that's why I did it, because I didn't want to look stupid.

A little image of management and

back then at was really wasn't cool for a room full of boys to hold hands.

And I was probably more concerned about being seen praying and

but we did it

and I don't remember anything too exciting about it then and all that. But I I do remember the ride home

after that meeting and I remember asking God to please make that prayer real. I said, I can't do this any longer. I can't stand this any longer. God, you really got to help me out with this.

And that was pretty much my experience with that.

I had another side experience as a result of that, that I didn't really know that I was till later on that that might have been a part of my third step

thing. I don't talk about it much, but

within a week or so, that night that we did that together, I'm attending a meeting

and I'm sitting next to Frank and it's not a meeting he normally attended.

Kagaba guy named Big Frank and they call him that because he was by God big and

he had an attitude and he was one of those guys that admired to a point. But there's enough, just times there's enough from Frank, and I'm sitting next to him.

And for some reason after, after the meeting,

we both are still sitting on our chairs. Everybody else that said the Lord's Prayer moved on.

And I mentioned to Frank that that I thought that he'd just become a human being in my eyes, and I was tired of competing with him. And I didn't really give a shit what he thought about it. And I can't give you the exact words, but for some reason he didn't hadn't he hadn't got up to leave. He didn't have any reason not to say that. And fortunately, he laughed.

Yeah. And he put his arms around the around me to hug me. I think I felt like he was going to crush me, but

he hugged me and we had a big laugh

and I got in the car to go home and I had one of those experiences where I'm driving home, but my ass is not touching the seat in the car.

And and Julie had my wife had

Julie and I have been married 50 years last year. So I don't refer to her often as my wife. But that's the Julie I'm talking about is my wife. I don't, I don't talk about the other Julie's.

The get home and she had wanted to go to an Al Anon meeting and the girls were young. The oldest was maybe

12 or 13 out there in little Timber. Goodnight.

And another one a year younger and another 1-2 years younger than that.

And they've been put to bed. And before Julie left and I showed up five minutes later. And so I'm making a rounds to go give each of the girls a kiss goodnight. The youngest daughter was asleep, which was a miracle. And then and I went upstairs where the two older girls were as and, and I guess the oldest one good night and went into the middle daughter's room and she was there crying. She'd already been diagnosed with ulcers as a young child. And

and so I when got a little milk, I guess or something for it, I came up there and I have been working with a bunch of crazy Christians that had had driven me nuts. We had this small office up at 44th and

across from Lakeside there and

they believed in praying for people that were sick. And I've just been through this and all that. Not open to that yet. Don't don't misunderstand that. Not open to much these people are telling me at all. But I walked it there and and I gave her that milk and I asked Patty if she'd like to pray. I don't know why it just came up

and she said please.

And so

I grabbed her hand with one hand and I put my other hand over on her stomach and I said a prayer and I don't know what I said. I have no clue what I said. All I know is when I looked up, Patty was asleep

and I went back downstairs and

enjoyed the experience that I've been having that night. I don't can't find a better way to explain that. And then flash forward a few months.

Many of us learn to make green chili about that same time,

and Julian, and that's all part of our experience. Talk about Steph. But we can make somebody got good green if you want.

And

Julia's in fixing dinner and fixing the Mexican food for dinner and all that. And the oldest girl said,

what's Patty gonna eat? She can't eat that. That'll kill her tongue. And Patty says no, I don't think so. My tummy hadn't hurt for a long time.

And and so, you know, you kind of put that event with the previous prayer and all of that. And I thought, holy cow,

we're talking about some real stuff here. We're talking about some real power here,

about that,

and it's a power we don't seek

with. We're in a program,

the dilemma with what Bob was talking about, that we can do whatever our dreams are. And that's true, except there's one little trick, because we're in a in a program who espouses anonymity, and you think about anonymity as the opposite of seeking power.

So we'll just throw that into the mix now for you. If there ain't no God, you're screwed. It ain't going to happen.

So anyway, we said that prayer together and that was the beginning of my

experience around the third step. Many times I have shared that experience over the years and many times before the groups I take through the book and that sort of thing, get down on our knees and pray to Thursday Prayer. I share that with and

it's just important and it just isn't. It was important to make it a wee thing and

I don't know what that everybody has that same experience, but I know just about everybody I've done that with except one that stayed sober since that time.

And that one was a woman Bob and I are doing that with with the other, what would it have been? 12 other guys

with that, only one of them went back out and he drank and crawled up the doorway and froze to death.

And

maybe that's why we're here doing this. We don't know.

And then from that, I left there and I had the momentum going, if you will, that I was put in the right place to start on an inventory.

I think I'll give it to you now.

Thank you.

I, I took a third step

before and actually I had started working with the spot with Don

and when the 75 International came along, I had just taken a third step and then we went back. I went, we stopped that process and went back and did it in the group. But the first time I took the third step,

we were reading in the book

and he was real clear about this business, about selfishness, self centeredness that we think is the root of our problem. And he said, he kept telling me that this was about selfishness and dishonesty and resentment and fear and that's what alcoholism was. And I kept arguing with him because I said, no, alcoholism is when you got to have something to drink and you get this bottle and you won't put it down.

And I said, that's alcoholism. And he said, no, it isn't. It selfishness, dishonesty, resentment and fear. And I'm looking at him and I remember asking him, is that some kind of Zen thing or the hell is that?

And he said, no, that's what the disease is. And I said that doesn't make any difference. It doesn't make any sense to me.

And he said doesn't have to.

And

and then he read me the third step prayer

and he said, I want you to go home for a week and think about this. And then I want you to come back

and sit and get down on your knees and hold hands with me and say that prayer. But I want you to know what it's about

and and we read the business about Ioffer myself to thee to build with me and to do with me as thou wilt. And he said, you know what that means. And I said, sounds like like God can do anything with you that he wants.

And he said right,

and and he talked to me about relieve me of the bondage itself and what the bondage itself was that I was so obsessed with myself that I couldn't even see you

in, in about how alcoholism is about self-centered fear.

In in that the best part of that prayer from my perspective was take away my difficulties.

But then it explains why.

See, I thought it was great. Well, yeah, take all that stuff. And then what's the rest of this? That I may better do that. I will.

I mean, wait a minute,

there's a hook in there.

Anyway, he sent me home for a week to think about, and I started thinking about it. That's dangerous

because all of a sudden I'm going,

well, what does he want? I mean, where is he going with that?

And, you know, and so am I going to sort of flash forward to some third world country holding a religious tract?

Uh, and you know, maybe he's going to make me sick and poor and all this stuff that I don't want to be.

So by the time I got back, I was a wreck.

And he said why Are you ready to do your third step? And I said no.

And he said then I can't help you.

And I said I didn't say that. I said, I, I wasn't ready to do it, but it, but I will do it.

And,

and so I got down on my knees and held his hand and hands and said to prayer and meant it.

Uh, I've seen people tell other people that, that God's a lot more serious about that than we are.

And

anyway, I, we went through this whole thing before I did it where I was going. He said, why don't you want to take it? And I said, I'm afraid. And he said, why are you afraid? And I said, yeah, I, I got no idea what God's got in mind here.

And it looks like he can do anything he wants. And I have no concept of where he's going with that. And I don't want to just sort of free fall into God's will here.

And so we we said it and then,

and then I got up from this, thinking it was very solemn occasion. And he laughed,

which I thought was wholly inappropriate.

And I said, what's so funny?

And he said, you don't want to give God that kind of power in your life, huh? And I said no.

And he said that's too bad. God's got all the power anyway.

This is just an exercise in who's God and who's the drunk.

Um, I've never regretted doing that. I've done it again

yearly ever since then

in.

At some point, you know, we spend the first parts of our lives thinking this is all about what we can get.

We think that the world is some kind of

dime store that we can run around and grab everything we can get our hands on and run out the door with it. OK, And all of a sudden I found out that this wasn't about grabbing everything you could get, it was about giving everything you could give.

And that destroys a lot of old myths about what the purpose of life is.

You know,

this whole I did

say something about going into the third step

and what kind of frame of mind you go into the third step with. First time I took it, I went into it with real fear.

I was totally afraid of what God was going to do to me.

And

you know, I mean, it was like the next day I was afraid to get out of bed. It was just what's God got in mind here? What have I done? What have I agreed to? Where is this going? That was my experience the first time I took a third step.

Overtime,

it got to be kind of an adventure. Wonder where God's going to take me now?

And for for a while, for a number of years, it was like agreeing to a mystery trip, you know, it was just like, where's this going? I knew it was going somewhere. I just didn't know where it was.

And then today when I there's two places in this program where

I virtually throw myself at God's feet,

I just, you know,

when we go into this process,

when we go back through the steps,

the book says, says we were reborn.

And it's true. You know why I go through inventory once a year because I get to the point where I can't stand myself anymore. I don't want to be me.

I want God to change me into whatever He's got in mind, and He's always got something better in mind than I do

so. So when I go into the third step, I virtually throw myself at God's feet without reservation.

No reservations. Everything's on the table

and I say that prayer with the intent of allowing God to do virtually anything with me that he that he's got in mind, which is killing me on the spot.

I will take the worst possible scenario and agree to it

because I don't want to be me anymore.

And so I go into the third step and the 7th step today

with the idea in mind that whatever I had in mind has no value.

That all I want to do is I want to become whatever it is God wants me to do, which is anything, anything that you can imagine.

And that I have put everything on the table and said have added, I agree to it.

Now the question is, are you willing to do that?

And really it's your choice. I mean, you do whatever you want to do, but but my, my deal today is I'm either, you know, I just

my, my ex-wife used to say, why don't you ever have both feet in the door?

I was one of those people that was hedging everything in life, including marriage incidentally,

and it used to be of some major concern to my ex-wife that I didn't have both feet in the door. And the reason why I didn't have both feet in the door is what I believed about myself. I couldn't imagine any reasonable, sane, lucid woman being married to me,

so I always kept one foot out the door so I could beat him out the door when they were leaving.

OK, I don't I put both in and eventually, even though the marriage didn't didn't last forever, I I put both feet in the door and said I'm here for the duration and I agree to whatever and it and if we got to sit down across the table and negotiate on this marriage, I'm willing to do that already, although I would rather be shot.

Then they have one of those conversations which reminds you, I shouldn't even say this, but I will because I do.

I Why is it that women wait till you're half asleep and in bed at night until they turn around and say we need to talk?

They learn it from their mothers. I don't know.

What? Yeah. And you go, huh? They're going. We need to talk. And you go. Why did you wait until now

Go well, we need to talk. Why can't they do that first thing in the morning?

I mean, I'm trying to go to sleep, right? Anyway.

With the third step prayer, get both feet in the door. OK, get in it for good and all if I

it's easier to see the power of God when you agree to anything.

So that's my experience with with the third step today. And that was my experience the first time I took it.

At some point, you know, we like to complain about anything. If I didn't have anything to complain about, it wouldn't be much of a day.

But the real truth about all this is that that we are blessed

and they see the benchmark

for how we're doing today isn't yesterday.

The benchmark is the day we came through the door. And a lot of us forget that. And we compare today with yesterday instead of the first day that we were sober. And so we get a kind of a skewed view.

So the truth is that we are blessed

in that we have been given the opportunity to continue our lives on a much more positive basis.

And, and a big part of that is coming to the conclusion that God is the power in the universe

in that in that personal power

is an illusion.

It there is no personal power. If you think you're powerful, you're blowing smoke up your own ass.

If you, if you think you have control of life,

you know, they're my first six inventories were all about control and about the lack of control. And then I found out it was an illusion

that this thing is all managed by God. And the idea that he gave me this little steering wheel on the dash

just promotes the illusion.

I think I'm steering the car

and I'm not.

So anyway, thanks.

So do we want to do that?

You want to do that?

Well, there is some who don't want to.

Oh, there is. OK, I thought I heard it. No, out there

going to give you an out, but it won't.

Well, we just sit where we are

and for those of you that don't know, the third step prayer feel comfortable to open your books so you can see it

and maybe hold your neighbors hand and then we'll just do it together. There's too many of us to do it any other way.

We haven't done this for 34 years.

God, Ioffer myself to thee, to build with me and to do with me how well relieve me of the bondage itself, that I may better do that well. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them, and they bear witness to those

that power, and I love God way alive

and had a good time. Well, always.

Once every 35 years ain't back.

That's the first time I held his hand and said the third step prayer since we did it in 1975.

Do you know that I, I sponsored this guy that was Lloyd, heavyweight Golden Gloves champion in Colorado. You remember Bill Saul? Oh yeah, Nobody else.

Nobody else would

would work with him. He had a reputation. Even the cops would bring 3-4 squad cars when he was drinking out on East Colfax Ave. in Denver. And he was a terror. He he was, if he hit you, he'd, he'd break four or five things every time he hit you. And,

and I asked one day, I saw him standing up against the wall at this meeting called Old Kent. And I,

I went after this guy named Tom. And I said, what's his story on that guy? And he said, oh, that's Bill.

Yeah.

And, and I said, all right. And he said he's crazy and he is extremely dangerous. He was the Colorado light heavyweight Golden Gloves champion. And, and I said, well, so why didn't anybody talk to him? And he said he's he hits people easily

and, and I so I walked up to him and he looked at me. He said, hi Bob. And I said, how you doing? And he said I'm not doing well at all. And I said, so when are you going to pull your head out of your ass

and everybody start backing up?

And he said, I don't know.

And I said you want some help?

And he said, yeah, I really need help.

And I, I asked them same thing that my sponsored asked me, are you willing to sit down with me across from on my, my kitchen table once a week and start at the beginning of this book and do everything that it suggests? And he said, yeah. Now one of the only reason why I brought this up is because when we got to the third step and he said, so how do we do that? And I said, you're going to get on your knees and hold hands with me,

he said. I'm going to what?

But he did it.

And I think he's been sober 30 years. So

one more gentle guys I've ever met. Yeah, but then he called me one day and he said when he when he was in the middle of the steps, he called me one day and he said I'm in jail. And I said, what happened? And I said, he said, well, I was over at this girl's house

and this guy called up and I answered the phone

and, and the guy on the other end said, who's this? And he said, it's Bill Saul. And,

and the guy said, what are you doing there? And he said, well I'm going to take this lady out to dinner.

And the guy said, well that's my ex-girlfriend and you better keep your butt out of there. And Bill Saw said well I'm I'm going to take her out to dinner anyway. And the guy said I'm going to come over there and kick your ass

and. And Bill said OK,

And Bill went out to the curb to greet him.

And the guy got out of his car and took one look at Bill Saul and started reaching into his jacket.

Oh, it's too late. Oh, yeah. And Bill hit him, broke his jaw in four different places and knocked a couple of his teeth out. And that's when the police came up. Bill, went.

The guy, you know, I thought he was reaching for a gun

and they took Bill off and then they released them, but he didn't. He he was so embarrassed to call me and tell me that he was in jail once again, even after he got sobered and started working the steps. So anyway, that's a

story,

one of many.

So we had talked about inventory.

There was a member of the group that some of you heard this, I'll make it, Bruce. But there's a member of the group that I didn't really like each other much. And

given we'd both been raised in the Rockies and there were certain people that didn't really like other people. And, and it was just part of what you grew up with. And as you got older, you'd go out and fight and then go back in the bar and have a few drinks together and park friends. And nobody ever really got hurt bad. But

next night out they'd be there with their bunch and we'd be there with ours and we'd do it again and do

and he came from that same kind of background down turn the dad Colorado and

and it doesn't help that he was a

fairly tall, really good looking Mexican fella and we just didn't like each other. I remember time. All the girls are sitting at the table at the York Street Group

and Ernie walks in behind me and one of the girls says

when Ernie walks in it just takes my breath away.

I thought that son of a bitch,

I was only one reason I didn't like him.

But

we kind of had this little competitive thing going on and one day he disappeared and

you go to the young people's group and they'd say, where's Ernie? And I'd say don't knock it. He's gone

and I don't know, he's gone for maybe two weeks or something like that. And when he came back in, I swear there was something different about him. Remember what you look at? Look at the niner of somebody home. And I've never seen anybody there before. And,

and he had something going for him and I didn't know what it was. And for some reason it is a conversation that went around the room to the meeting. Ernie spoke and said that a few weeks before that he'd gotten into a beef with his wife and he'd run away from home and, and he'd gone down to a place called Lake Whitney, TX.

And what was in Lake Whiskey was a man named Bob White, who had a huge influence on some of your lives. You don't know that, but

and he was down there and

he used to call Ernie, Ernie Mack

don't know where he got it. They call him Ernie. Mac and

Gurney went down there and

he sat him down. Bob sat him down and showed him how to write an inventory. And then so Ernie sat and he wrote this inventory. And

after he's done writing, the inventory

of Bob came out and said, you know, what we ought to do is get on the big boat and go out in the middle of the lake here and do some fishing. And fishing is Ernie's second favorite thing to do. And.

So they get out there in the middle of Lake and Bob

turns a boat off and puts the keys in his pocket and says, hey, Ernie, why don't you tell me what's in that inventory? And Ernie can't swim, so they took a fist up.

Back then, the young people's group, when they get together, the silent sign of the times is the peace sign.

And so that's what you do. You'd walk in and we were kind of just starting that thing, at least in my case, where you hug one another. And I always had preferences about who I was going to hug. But

the end of the meeting and all that, Ernie and I would just give each other the peace sign

and Ernie's missing this finger.

That was just another reason why I didn't like.

But he shared that night about the.

Getting into beef was a bride leaving, going down there and going right in the tour and what had happened to him. But the difference in him was so visible. I can't explain it. Just incredible. He he was on fire. He was alive and

the Super what I saw happen there, and

that happened shortly after we had

said the prayer, I think. And I went home and I wrote my first inventory

and and open the big book and we really hadn't done much with it yet. And I did. I wrote all night that night. And I can't tell you what I found in it. I can tell you I only knew to do 3 columns and then guess at the stuff on the next page over later became the 4th column. But as inventories go, it really sucked.

As inventories go, all it did was save my ass.

And I like to tell that story because I like for all of us to be able to sit down and have this kind of insight that we can look back there and see that I understand how I'm selfish on self seeking. I'm dishonest. I'm so scared

and all of that, but

I don't recall that I did that and I don't. I just did with what I had there. And I could only describe the fear as that grinding in my gut, the hole in my belly was the wind blowing through it. And I had learned that that was just fear. And it showed up every time I turned around.

It had showed up when I tried to have a conversation and looking in the eye.

That drove me nuts

to go to a job interview and not look them in the eye. It's tough to get a job.

I don't know. I don't know why. They had a degree in accounting and I was going to handle her money, but I wouldn't look up in the eye. They didn't think I was the kind of guy they wanted to have my money

and I took the fifth step with the ring. Now I'm going to go on into that night, but that's my first attempt at inventory.

And then later as we're looking at it, we're looking at it closer. And then I wrote another inventory and it was a good one.

And then I've probably written 40 inventories over the years now, and some have been much better than others.

And

flash forward real fast. 20 years later.

No, 15 years later,

I'm 20 or so and I'm in real trouble.

I'm living in Indianapolis, and I had carried the message we had about sitting down and going through the book together and showing them how to do it and still writing an inventory every year. I do it, gentlemen. Just about every time I take somebody through the book, I do it with it. And

my head got in the wrong place and I'm behaving, battling and and

about to lose my family. I'm not making a living. Everything's going to pop. My friends in a A in Indianapolis are trying to avoid me because they're watching the way I'm living.

Not talking to Bob, not talking to my friend Earl. I'm not talking to anybody. I don't want to tell him on the snake I'm being. And

I hit the wall and I called Paul Martin in Chicago and I've met Paul in Denver. He'd come and spoken in Denver a couple of times and and kind of carried a little bit of conversation with him a couple times over the years. But I called him and

and asked him if there was any possibility that a 40

five year old alcoholic grandfather with 20 years of sobriety could be going through male menopause.

And he said, well, maybe. And he said that if you review your first three steps and write another inventory and come up here and take some fist steps

and go make your men, you'll feel better.

And so this time I said, I'll do whatever you tell me. And then he said, go do that. I want you up here Friday so you can give somebody a deadline to finish the damned inventory. And

so I went home and I wrote

a new inventory, and much of my surprise, it was a pretty big inventory. I think I had more pages of resentment than I'd ever had in a single inventory before,

and it was all current stuff. I wasn't rewriting old resentments.

Now, what's scary about that is that ought to be telling you that I can cause as much harm stone sober 'cause I can drink it

and there's no bullshit behind that ever. And that's, that's just the fact. That's what I can do.

And I went through the fare inventory and that was all current stuff

and it was bigger than I think any of my previous ones.

And then I went all the way back through my life on my conduct inventory and I looked at the

that carefully and I tried to remember everybody involved and I tried to ask myself the nine questions around the, the sex inventory

with each one

with that. And it was it was insightful. It was the first time I ever think that I had a

description

of what was going on with myself. Esteem

if he was careless as I am, you can write your first three columns and say it affects myself. Esteem my ambitions, my

personal relations, my sex relations and all that and then walk away from it with one word descriptions of what is affected. And then I still don't know anymore. I did before I wrote those things down,

and so I'm coming to learn some things.

I'm a slow learner. Once I get it, I got it pretty good.

And I'm not trying to get across here is all those other inventories did me some good

and I found some good stuff in all of them to help me out with it. I found out where my lies are every time,

but this time I really found some lies and hood I was like and it was all about these things I'm talking about that that those moments of peace I would get from sex or putting a little extra money in my pocket when I deserted it or not,

whatever it was that had nothing to do with reality.

And so I am talking more about that later, but

those are two very important inventories that have taken my life and they've been because of the timing of them, they're probably my two, the two I remember most, but I don't know that that makes them the most important ones.

Never stop. I'm still doing inventories. And then

real quickly,

Paul Martin died last August, and the LaGrange group in La Grange, IL, was where he went. And the way those guys and gals in that group get to know each other very much is they're taking each other through the steps. And then when it comes fifth times, they swap fifth steps with each other

and many times. And so that's part of your

greeting, if you will, when you come into there.