Workshop called

My dry days December 3rd 1964

and

I've been asked a couple of times already trying to figure it out. I got sober just before my 25th birthday and that tells you I'm 70 years old

and Bob here is a lot older than I am.

We got the somebody over here in the corner.

That better

I got really be careful what I say

right

when Bob and I heard about coming out here and do that to do this together. One of the primary reasons I came was to be here with Bob.

We've been longtime friends in a we

ran all over the Denver area in a fellowship of us. That was

probably one of the more important things we got to talk about

where we were together at meetings and after meetings we're in each other's homes eating. We went on 12 step calls together. We did this fellowship all the time together, but we've not been on the podium together after all these years. So it's a two fold event for me and I'm delighted to be here.

I'll go ahead and do what we talked about and

let's just kind of get a group car that's here. We've got a number of people here and I hope a number of new people

let that. We got roughly 8 hours to go through 12 steps and we're trying to figure out how the hell to do it.

And, and so I would dislike some kind of conscious from the group and maybe three or four. If you can tell me why you came here, What's your reason for hearing? What is it that you think you'd like to hear? And we'll try to go there unless we think your idea is not a good idea and then we won't

order.

Really interested in getting when I finished my.

I feel pretty good today, but I'd like to live.

We all,

everybody else. Thank you,

her. I'm her. I'm an alcoholic herb

and I'm very interested in hearing about some of the experience from the beginning,

but not to focus too much on that. I'd really like to know how you guys have changed and what it's like now.

Y'all, you didn't hear that. Basically Herb was was asking us

to talk about our beginning

and the steps and how we fell into it and how we got to doing and then secondly, how we've managed to stay into it up until today.

So we're closely on the same thing here so far. Maybe a little more effort on on the first step.

Saw some hands over here, young lady.

We knew we're going to spend some time on that.

Yes, ma'am.

Yeah, I kind of like that myself.

It's a good thing I'm here.

That's your answer

matter.

Rather than

well, my name is Bob Olsen and I'm an alcoholic.

I'm a member of the heavyweight group in Englewood, Co. My sobriety date is May 28th to 1973 and I need to be really careful because this is my grand sponsor

even though I'm much older than he is.

Better part of a whole year.

I've just LED a harder life.

I

well, Gary's right. We,

when I came to Denver originally, I was a year sober and I'd been in a group in little town in Wisconsin in, we didn't know much about steps at all. In fact, I don't know that we knew anything about steps. And, and I was about I, I knew I was going to drink again and I didn't know how to not do that. So, you know, sometimes God, in fact, more often than not, God will give us grace when we come into this program.

But at some point we have to learn what the truth is in start exercising the truth. And God's kind enough and gracious enough to bring us to a point where we will be presented with the truth at some point. And I was presented with the truth by these guys.

Gary was sponsoring another guy named Don Pritz and Don Pritz became my sponsor and and we just flat hung out together all the time.

Now

Gary and a couple of other guys, a guy named Ernie and then

done and

a couple of Don's really and and some other some other guys were already involved in the book. But I think like the catalyst for me was a convention in 1975 and we were, I think where we all, I know that we were on the hospitality committee

in Lois Wilson was there, she was talking and,

and then this guy from Canada got up named Mack cheated her. He was from Winnipeg and he talked about the Golden Slipper group and we were all fascinated by what he was saying because

he said that group could never really stay sober. And then they had made a decision to take a whole new approach towards Alcoholics Anonymous. And that was to start at the forward to the 1st edition where it's said to show others precisely how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book. And they started right there and they did everything it said to do, and they did it as a group.

And we'd never heard, at least I had never heard anything like that before.

In, in afterwards,

there were fourteen of us that the best of my knowledge that got together

in this guy's basement. His name was Jay Levy. He's passed on now

and we got together in his basement and we did exactly what Mac Cheater

had suggested

in and it was just amazing. To the best of my knowledge, only one person out of that group ever drank.

That's 35 years ago or 34 years ago,

and that guy died. Yeah, he froze to death in a doorway down on the Skid Row in Denver.

So in terms of Catalyst, I didn't, you know, I'm not sure what Gary's experience was with that, but I can tell you that my experience was,

was an absolute fascination with what can happen if you follow the directions.

So, you know, all of a sudden my life really started changing. My perception started changing, everything started changing

and and I I came to the conclusion that Alcoholics Anonymous is a spiritual adventure

in that we have this great opportunity to live life that's meaningful. I think I think that a lot of people spend a great deal of time trying to figure out how to make their life meaningful.

In About 15 years ago, I was floating in and out of a coma at a hospital in Littleton

and and trying to figure out if my life had made any difference at all.

And see, I think an awful lot of you are going to have the same experience where you're going to reach a crisis point in your life and you're going to have the opportunity to reflect and to say, well, I've been around here for all of these years. Is this world one iota different for my having been here?

And you're going to have to answer that question.

And so all that did was reaffirm what I already knew, which is our real purpose is to carry this message, to go out and help other people, to make other people's lives better

in the whole idea. But I want to get rich and I want to get laid. It's bullshit.

I mean, it'd be nice.

But the truth is that our real purpose here came to me in no uncertain terms, and that is that our real purpose here is to make this world better.

And we have this unique opportunity to carry a message that was given to us and in that whole catalyst was brought to me in 1975 at that convention.

So, so how do you do that? You be clear.

You be unafraid. You know, sometimes carrying this message will make you unpopular, especially to people that don't want it.

And Alcoholics Anonymous is full of people that don't want it. They want to come in here, run the same bullshit they've been running all their lives.

And the real truth is that there's so much more here.

Here's one thing I want to say in the beginning, and that is that I am absolutely certain that you can get as well as you want to get.

It just takes some work.

Now, if you're adverse to work, that's your problem.

And I know that it's a scary proposition to go looking for who you are,

but the truth is that there are so many benefits in this thing,

uh, spiritually, emotionally,

physically, there are benefits in this that go across the whole realm of our lives.

And you can go as far as you want with this now. I've been doing the steps once a year for almost 37 years now

in and I have no scars for having done that.

And as a consequence, the book talks about growing and understanding and effectiveness. And that process doesn't stop. You know, we get well enough to see how sick we were,

and we learn enough to see how little we know, and then the process repeats itself.

And so there's no end to this.

There's no end game here. We can't arrive at something. This is so. So all we can do is we can continue to try and live a life that's pleasing to God.

And as we do that, you know, we learn how to live with principals and we learn how to stand up for ourselves and we learn how to have the courage of our convictions

and we learn how to take risks.

So, so I want to be real clear about this. If you want to really keep working and finding out more about God and more about yourself and finding out where all the lies are, because most people think inventory is about finding the truth. And I think it's about finding the lies.

If you want to get closer to the bottom of the truth,

just keep doing this. You aren't going to wear it out.

Speaking of,

I don't even want to go there.

So that was a catalyst anyway, was a was it for me was a convention in 1975 and we were all inspired and we were all Philippine vinegar and we were going to go out and,

and man, you really when a whole group of us were coming around, you had to get out of the way,

either get with it or get gone. And

so, and I think there's virtue in that.

So anyway, that's, that's enough out of me for a while, Gary.

One of the reasons I wanted to be here because I think Bob explains some things better than anybody else I know. And

I was four years sober when I ended up in Denver. I'd been dry in Wyoming and

listen to some real bullshit for program.

Smelled a little bit of it. Now I think about

and,

uh, is that look back on it.

I was really foggy even at four years over and the longer I'm sober, the longer the fogginess seemed to exist.

But I would sit in meetings and I would listen to stuff and I I really hadn't done anything yet other than than than go to meetings and make coffee and, and

somehow it survived it to get to Denver and they were talking a whole different story and they were talking 90 meetings in 90 days. Helen Laramie for to been able to done that. I'd have driven what, 10,000 miles and and

to do it and kind of like LA if you want to run around town. But like we did this weekend, huh, Sheldon?

So when I got there, I was attracted. But

an odd number there went to a lot of meetings in Denver and would look around and seem to be welcomed greatly because I was young and and wasn't great. I've got a hold of this deal so young and didn't have to go through all the stuff they went through and I think these no good.

They don't know. I just stand there dying. I really don't have another one left, you know, I don't know that I'm going to survive sobriety. I'm not. And so it was.

That didn't attract me much at all. I didn't like being pandered to. And the more we ended them up and we started the young people's group and it stopped right away right there. Nobody was overjoyed that I was there, I don't think but

but I was attracted to the people that seemed to have something that irritated everybody else.

That's true. I mean,

those are the guys we've been attracted to it. And Bob and I were talking about this at breakfast this morning. Those are the guys that always got my attention because if they had gone through the big book, they came out and they spoke in meetings or one and on one and they had some confidence. You don't see another people.

And yeah, a lot of people don't like that, but tough.

But they're the ones that attracted me. And and so I somehow caught on through that. And I don't know if I can give you the whole dialogue, but

I was attracted to him and went around him. And when the idea was to go through the book that we'd heard at the at the state convention, it made sense. Not at that point in time. Up until that happened, I had known that the answers in the steps. OK, I I just knew that and I'm not sure why, but I was really looking for nice, easy way to do that. And so I I was trying to Hazelden guides the shit and

12:00 and 12:00 and all of that

and really getting nowhere. But I knew the answer was the steps. And so when this came up, it was just a natural thing to do. I don't really remember much logic about it.

I know that

by the time that point had reached in my life, I

there was number doubt that I was an alcoholic

and and there nor has there been sense I'm not an and I'm an alcoholic. I've yet to smoke a joint or pop a pill for any illicit reason or any of that stuff. I don't relate to it. It's not alcoholism in my mind, and that's a confusing thing to say when anymore anybody comes in. Have done an awful lot of alcohol and other drugs and everything else, but

it's still a very clear in my mind that I'm a real alcoholic. And the first time I saw that in the book,

I latched onto that line. And I like going into some meetings and treatment centers and saying I'm a real alcoholic. That's fun.

So anyway, when we got through doing that and like finally got through those steps with those guys and we had the experiences together,

I somehow had that confidence,

much more of it than I had before.

And I had the freedom to do some things with that. But it was shortly after we did all that that I moved to Indiana. And so

my experience since then was different than yours and, and what we've done. And I'm sure that, but

I do remember

as we were moving on and that and I remember when we started the the 4th chapter

and you got the line and in there that says we must find a power greater than ourselves and that, and then it says, well, that's exactly what this book is about

to enable us to find a power, grant ourselves that can solve our problem. And I was discouraged to see that because I had seen other people who claimed to have some kind of power like that and I didn't like the way they behaved. They didn't, they didn't want me to do the things I wanted to do. And,

uh,

but I really didn't argue with it. I knew there was something there. I'm watching things go on in the groups

where people are coming in and changing,

and I've been sober for a while, but I would see people come in and I didn't notice that I had

any sense that I've been sober longer than they have.

I mean, I knew I did, but these people were saying things and experiencing things that that

I knew I was supposed to experience and I hadn't yet.

And they hadn't been sober as long as I had been. And so it was clear to me that meetings, meetings, meetings in that ship just ate all the answer. Very small part of it.

Heard a guy say the other day that isn't it interesting when I when he came in the steps were required and the meetings were optional

and that's something to think about it.

So my second step experience was very much watching God help other drugs get sober

and I watch them change your lives and watch them start paying their their child support

or watch a Dick daily go down to the courthouse and see the see the District Attorney and say I got to start paying back on my kids and my wife will send me to jail if I do. And he had to make arrangements to do that and just watch all this stuff go on. And then Dick started the blossom and we watched all that and you talk to these guys about what was going on, they're blaming it on God.

And

so I, that was very much just a part of my second step. It's not that I was a disbeliever when I came in. I was just stupid.

I had been. I had been around families out where I'd been raised who had There was a Mormon family. My dad used to go ask him to pray for rain when we're in the middle of a drought. And sometimes it rained and,

and so it's not that I disbelieve that. I guess I just thought I was aloof from it or something, but

that changed watching what was going to happen

with me now, looking back on my first step today

and my second step compared to back like that.

But I am certainly even more convinced today that left to my own devices, I'm a dead man. I I cannot keep myself sober

and I cannot match my day

and and and that God can and will if I if I let him and.

Is probably some profound shit I could say about that, but I hope not because it's really that simple for me and that's been that way all these years.

Don't you find it amusing that he and I were part of the Denver Young People's Group?

I

We really were.

I think the longer I'm sober, the longer I understand

some of the things that the book says about coming to terms with their alcoholism. And

there are some there are some things that are specific to people like us. One of them is the

phenomenon of craving.

I don't know. If you're drunk like I am

and you take a drink, something happens. It doesn't happen with normal people.

When I take a drink, all I can think about is taking another drink

and in

just some, some regular person will take a drink and walk away. I, I've got a son that does it, does that or I've got several sons that do that and I don't understand it. I mean,

I take a drink and I'm obsessed

and then and then I have no sense of where that's going to go. I lose all perspective. I, I can't remember. All of a sudden my memory fades.

All of those times that I had taken a drink before and things went to hell in a handbasket and I wound up in all kinds of places that I didn't want to be at with people I didn't want to be with.

Like all of a sudden I can't remember that. All I can think of is

abet another one would be good.

You know, if you're, if you're an alcoholic, that's what happens.

And then there's another. There's another description in the book that says that we lost the power of choice.

Yeah, I don't think it's that funny.

Jesus. I mean, when I got up in the morning, I, you know, my idea was, Gee, I think I'll really screw this day up good.

My idea when I got up in the morning for the most part was God I hope I don't drink again today.

I just. But I knew at some point during the day that I had to.

It wasn't like I, you know, like I had a choice in the middle of it.

At some point I had to drink

and and that's losing the power of choice.

So at some point,

at some point during the day, I had to take a drink. Now I'm going to tell you something there's a lot of people argue with maybe, maybe even Gary. Well

I'm scared

since

I think I had a first step before I ever got to Alcoholics Anonymous.

My life was was so messed up by alcohol

that I had reached a point where I knew it was going to kill me. I mean, people in my family been dying from alcoholism ever since they got here from Norway.

And so I watched my dad dying from alcoholism and I watched all these other people dying from alcoholism. And that's what I thought it, you know, I just figured we all died before we were 40.

And I figured the same thing was going to happen to me. And I don't even know why I came to Alcoholics Anonymous because I didn't think it was going to work. And I went to meetings for five years before I got sober.

I'm not happy to tell you that. You know, I wish I would have been walked through the doors and got magically cured and all that. But I'm too big a skeptic, you know, My idea is this shit ain't going to work for me.

And so I went around Alcoholics Anonymous, and half the time I went drunk. Half the time I got drunk on the way home

and I didn't say, you know, I'd sit in there and listen to him talk and go.

I have no idea who these people are.

And then I got so sick,

by the time I got to Alcoholics Anonymous, my liver was sticking out of my side.

Doctors said that your chances of a heart attack or a stroke are 80% the next four years. But the problem is you can't scare a drug.

I mean, you can sit in an A meeting all day with new drunk go, you're going to die. They're going to go aha.

You know, sometimes it's a pleasure to get the hell out of here.

That's why you can't scare drunk,

because by the time they get here, their life's so damn miserable they don't have any other choice. That's the gift of desperation.

So

I didn't think it was going to work and it didn't for a long time. And I'm no 90 Day Wonder and Alcoholics Anonymous. I kept, you know, my whole, I don't want to tell you what my idea is about life in general or what it was back then, but it starts with FY

and I, you know, that was my attitude about everything.

And and then finally, when I got so sick that

I reached a point at the book described, and I wish everybody got to that point. And that is when when if you take another drink, it's going to kill you. And I'm not talking about in the next three weeks, I'm talking about today.

And I reached a point where if I took another drink, I knew it was going to kill me and I would not survive the day.

And the bad part was that if I didn't take another drink, it was going to kill me.

And I,

you know, there's no hope in that position

because either way you're going to die.

And these two guys 12 step me and sat me down in front of a priest and they didn't have treatment centers around back then.

So

when they got done talking to me, they took me home and left me.

And for the next 48 hours I jumped around like a fish out of water,

knowing every minute I was going to die.

And I would encourage, I wish everyone got to have that experience

because I guarantee you that you would have real respect for alcoholism.

And and then they, these guys, I don't know, I thought it was not very nice of them.

They came back after about 48 hours, see if I was still breathing,

and then they took me back and set me down in front of this priest who ran a halfway house. Again,

I don't have any doubts about my alcoholism.

Do you know that statistically something I think over 90% of the people that are coming into Alcoholics Anonymous these days have had some experience with drugs. OK, so,

so

so as Gary said, the line gets blurred a little bit,

but I'm clear about what I am. Now. I'll tell you a funny thing. I was taking prescription drugs, which doesn't make me any better or worse than anybody else, but I just, I had like 6 open-ended prescriptions for tranques and all this stuff and I used to use them so I wouldn't go into D TS in the morning.

But when I, when I went through the, when I got sober and Alcoholics Anonymous and went through the steps,

all the rest, that stuff went away. I have no fascination for anything that I used to use,

so once I address my alcoholism, everything else went away.

Umm

Gary was talking about is his experience with the second step. Mike,

my first second step experience was my sponsor coming up to me and saying why are you sober?

I was sober about 90 days. I was still sitting on my hands and meetings. I was sweating so hard.

Jesus, I used to I don't know where all that stuff came from, where all that, but I used to just sweat out a whole shirt. I mean it all just all get wet. I could wring out a shirt after it. And, and I,

when I first came into Alcoholics Anonymous, people didn't, they wouldn't look at me.

You know, I was wondering why everybody was avoiding. I mean, I'd look at him and they'd be looking somewhere else

and I think I was. So I think I was so sick I made him nervous.

I don't think they wanted to look at me

and and people just tried to they wouldn't ask me. They'd never let me talk in meetings, but I couldn't say anything any. But they wouldn't. And then and after you were sober 90 days in this little town that you then you'd been sober long enough chair meeting.

And so that the Wednesday group, they said, and everybody else in that group had chaired a meeting, small town, small meetings,

and everybody else had chaired the meeting. And so when it came around for the chairmanship again, where you were had to be sober or where you chaired it for 90 days

straight,

they said, well, we're going to take nominations for our new chairman

and see. And my sponsor got up and said, how about letting Bob chair the meeting for the next 90 days? And this other guy jumped up and said we need to talk about that.

And this other guy jumped up right after him and he said, that's a really good idea, we need to talk about this. And, and I'm sitting there going, what the hell is going on here? And they, and then this guy who said that they ought to talk about it said, Bob, why don't you go outside and smoke a cigarette?

So I said, OK, and now my mind's working right? So I, I'm going outside to smoke a cigarette and wondering where I can find an automatic weapon.

And,

and then I came back in,

in my,

my sponsor was smiling at me and he said, well, you get to be the be the chairman for the next 90 days.

And so I was. And I didn't drink the next 90 days because I wouldn't let those sons of bitches see me drunk.

That's not a very good reason, is it?

I mean, why? You know, God works in not funny ways. And my anger

kept me sober for 90 days in the Moat, one of the most critical times in my sobriety. I didn't have the steps to rely on or anything else. I just had anger

in it, you know, that's a dubious luxury that is, the book says. But at that point in time, it, you know, God used it to keep me sober.

And so when my sponsor said, why are you sober? I said it's because I'm a member of Alcoholics Anonymous

and he said both. Shit,

you've been hanging around AAA for five years and you never got sober before. What's the difference?

And I said, well, I don't know. And he said why are you eating differently? And I said no. And he said are you? Are you

are you on some kind of a diet? And I said no. He said, are you exercising? And I said no. And he said, are you going to work every day? And I said no. And, and he said, well, what are you doing differently? And I said leave it alone.

I I don't know what the hell I'm doing differently. Just drop it.

And he said, are you praying? And I said yeah. And he said, you do that before,

and I said no.

And he said, would you concede that you're sober today by the grace of a God you don't even believe in?

Ouch.

And that made me look at God. And then it's priesthood. I used to go fishing with it. They had put me in front of originally kept going. So what do you think about God today, Bob?

I go on trying not to

and

uh, and he said, well, think about it. Thank,

see. And he was the guy in the beginning that said can you stop drinking? And I said no. And he said I got bad news for you and and I said, what's that? And he said we can't stop you either. There aren't enough people in the city to stop you from drinking if you want another drink.

And I said, all right,

And

you know, I'm sitting there going, well, at sea, we've just established that I can't drink.

I can't stop drinking. And he just told me they can't stop me. So what the hell am I doing here?

And then this priest said, well, there better be God or your games over.

And he was right. Now I get that kind of logic. I mean, I don't have a problem with it. So I'm sitting there going, I'm I'm I'm going to die from this thing and it may take some time when it's painful and all the rest of that stuff and I can't stop. And now all of a sudden, we got my. My only hope is a willingness to believe.

If that's my only hope, I'm going there

OK when we are faced with no alternatives,

will take the path. Now, there are a few that don't, and I think those are the toughest people,

OK, I think the toughest, I think the toughest drunks die because they flat won't give up. And for us to survive this disease, we have to give up

in these really tough people out there. They just cave in and die

and, and for folks like us, at some point we go. I get it.

I can't take any more pain. I don't care what the I don't care what the alternative is. I'm going for it,

OK? And that's what I did.

And then I found out that that's where I should have been all the time.

And then I found out there was a loving God who could change my life and I didn't have to live in the anger and frustration and despair and all those things that I lived in any longer if I didn't want to. And that I could stop being the king of the world

and I could just walk in the valley and say guides running the shows up there.

And I don't have the responsibility of running any show.

And that it's only by the grace of God that I have a wonderful life today. And see, when I came in here,

there was nothing left for me. I had burned all the bridges, broken all the relationships, had a wife that hated me, had kids that were afraid of me, had

I had an employer that was trying to fire me. I mean, my life was basically over

and,

and all of a sudden there was hope, there was change. There was a whole new life to live.

No, I was 35 years old when I got sober and I've been, I've been sober for 36 years

and and I have had the opportunity to live a whole other life.

And you can have the same thing. I don't care how old you are or where you start from what you did, where you've been. I don't give a shit about any of that. There's hope for all of us

and your life can change as radically as mine did. Now, most of the time when I was drinking, people describe me as being crazy. I had a tendency to be violent.

Umm, I was so good at it that I worked for gangsters in Chicago. I did all sorts of things.

And when you, when people said something about Bob Olsen, people, other people would say, see, he's nuts.

And today, I'm one of the largest providers of psychiatric care for the Colorado Department of Corrections.

And so God has a sense of humor.

So anyway,

that was my experience. I came to believe in that, and overtime your belief deepens until you understand that

the guts running everything

in the the idea that I have control over anything, it is delusion.

Personal power is an illusion. Control is an illusion. The longer you're sober, the more you find that out. And the idea that you run around thinking you're terribly powerful and you can move the world,

that's delusional.

OK, OK

umm, I have a chance to worship God today. I am privileged to worship God today

and and it took me a long time to get to that. Thanks.

I was just thinking

when I arrived in Denver. I've been dry for those four years and Laramie going to college and going to meetings and doing that. But I have been through four years of the most pain I'd ever had in my life.

I don't do sobriety well

left of my own devices. It's just awful. It's just horrible. The worst thing you can do to an alcoholic is dry them out and let him just stand there.

And

this,

you know, somehow I had survived it till, till we got involved in the book and the steps in Denver, with the grinding in my gut going on every day,

still using my old techniques to survive that matter. I was still intentionally writing bad checks. I was still chasing women I shouldn't be chasing. I was doing everything I could to get a moment's relief

except follow the directions. And I don't remember anybody giving me the directions before I got to Denver, but

they might have been.

So by the time

this all happened, the experience that started with us,

I was ready for it.

And I often describe my time when I, when I, the first time I got enough to drink at 16 years old, I was a 16 year old that my God needed a drink

because the grinding in my gut had been going on since I could remember.

And it was. And so the first thing attracted to me to that when I saw some confidence going on and all that, as I knew those people didn't have the hole in their belly, they they wasn't going on with them

with that. And so I was faced with two things. Yeah, I was completely convinced I was a real alcoholic.

And I was also convinced that I couldn't go on the way I was doing.

I just couldn't do it. And so coming to believe seemed to happen for me at that point. But I attended a meeting one time and somebody asked if if you really hit your bottom before you stop drinking or after you stop drinking. And I can tell you, in my case, it might have been both. Because when I stopped drinking, I was so sick. They locked me in that little room that that house

and had a window in the door, but like that and I look up and everybody once in a while somebody's nose would be smashed up against that glass because they're in there observing me.

And

just thought I'd throw that out. There better be a God

if you're living that life and we're coming into that and

I don't remember consciously seeking exact that, but that explained what I was going to, then there better be a God. I can't do this shit anymore

and I can't do it. And so then when we moved on into the second step and I found it didn't matter who's got it was as long as it made sense to me.

So that took out

that that eliminated some God that that eliminated trees and

doorknobs, light switches and doorknobs, Yeah.

But we think is some stupid shit. Don't.

Yeah.

So, and, and I know there's many of us in here whose first step position has been, that

has been the inability to stop. And then we finally get stopped and then we got to be sober.

God, what a horrible word at that point in time.

It's better now in the change.

Any comments or questions right here. We're kind of we're going to have to cut you loose to either pee or drink coffee.