The OA Big Book Study in Winnipeg, MB, Canada

My, my joke, but it's an absolute truth to to people who do step five with me is as a lawyer, I know how to keep a confidence, but even better than that, I have such a lousy memory that I forget them ten, you know, a week later. So you, your secrets are, are not only safe with me because I know how to keep them confidential, but because I don't really remember them. I've heard so many step 5S in my life that, that they, they wash over me in so many ways because they're all the same.

And, and Clancy, this great speaker tells a story about sitting in a, he's driving a car and the guy's doing a step five with him with a, a flashlight reading in the dark and the windshield wipers are going because it's raining cats and dogs. And the guy then Clancy, I did this, I did that. And Clancy says, does he know what I'm thinking?

It's this, oh God, another person who's done this or that, Why can't I get a murder sometime?

They're like someone interesting. Because we really are the same, you know, I mean, whatever has happened to us, sometimes it's, you know, some really difficult things have happened to us, but our reactions to them are really, really very much the same. Here are the directions, page 75. When we decide who is to hear our story, we waste no time.

We waste no time. We do it, we do it, we do it. We just don't waste time. We finish step four, we do our step five. We have a written inventory and we're prepared for a long talk, at least three or four hours, according to Doctor Bob, right? We explained to our partner what we're about to do and why we have to do it. He should realize that we're engaged upon a life and death error. And whenever I do a step five, I will say to the person, I want you to understand that for me, this is life and death that I am. I need to talk about what

done in my life, my defects of character on the road to getting rid of them, hear people do it. I ask them to explain to me why they're doing it. Because it is an important moment in everyone's life. It's a privilege to hear it. It's a privilege to do it, and it's important that everyone understand how serious this is. And here are the detailed, in-depth instructions that amount to one sentence. We pocket our pride and go to it, illuminating every twist of character, every dark cranny of the past. Period.

That's the instructions and I'll tell you what I do because I don't know any other way of, of explaining how I read this. What I do is this. When I either when I do my Step 5 or when I ask people, when people ask me to do it, I say to them, take your resentment form.

Keep it folded over. I only want to hear columns one and four. I don't want to hear your inventory of the other person, which is column two. I just want to hear your inventory of yourself, which is column four.

So tell me the name of the person. You might want to tell me a bit about that person, a bit about your relationship to that person, a bit about maybe the areas in which there were some issues. But what I want to hear is where you've been selfish, dishonest, self seeking and frightened. And explain those to me and maybe I can assist you if you don't know where you have been selfish or where you have been dishonest or where you have been frightened.

The good stuff's in column two. The most interesting stuff is in column two. And I never get to hear that, which is OK. I mean, that's, that's fair. The stuff that is always, I mean, if if everyone has curiosity, but other people's lives, it'll be in column two, not in column four

color for it's all going to be the same. Well, I wanted something that I didn't get or, you know, I was dishonest and not standing up to the person telling person this is can't be done or something like that. The interesting things, the things that really are part of those people's lives is in column two. But that's theirs. That's their story and that's not what I listen to.

And I find it works very well. Other people like to hear column two. My own sense is I don't want people to revisit their resentments. I just don't want them to go back over their resentments about other people. Why they're mad that those people are on the list. I just think it's important for them to tell me what their defects of character, what are their dark crannies of the past, not other people's. You know, someone says to me, I'll tell you my inventory, but let me tell you what you know, so and so did to me. You know, they're you know, there was the throwing the rock incident and then there was this and all that.

Well, where's their sense of these people are sick? Where's their tolerance, pity and compassion? Get rid of that guys. Let's go on to where you've been selfish to son of self seeking friend. So that's what I ask. And then when we get to the fear forum, I say, OK, go across and tell me what your fear are. Fears are. I say, I'll assume that you found that self-reliance didn't work, that you didn't rely on infinite God relied on yourself, your finite self, and it didn't work. And I'll assume you said the fair fear prayer. So let's just go

what your fear is, why you have that fear, and what would God have you be?

And if you aren't sure what God would have you be, let's talk about it.

And we talk about it.

And then on the saxconiform, I say, tell me whom you've heard. Tell me how you hurt that person. Tell me whether you've aroused jealousy, suspicion, or bitterness, and tell me what you would have done instead. And we'll talk about it. If you need to talk about it, maybe you don't know what you should have done instead. So we can talk about it. I can give you whatever experience I've received from people who have talked to me about it and we'll talk about it.

And that's step five. No, it's not step five. It's the end of the step five part of sharing with another human being. I've I've had a person with 60 pages of resentment and the longest I've ever spent was with this person and it was 4 hours.

It doesn't take a long time to do Step 5 if you leave out columns two and three of the resentment form because it becomes

repetitive. And you know, they'll go through 5 pages of friends and say well they're all the same, they're all the same. Or they'll go through their father and say, well my mother's the same. Or they'll go through their two ex spouses and say they were both the same or something like that. And sometimes there's some tremendously powerful sharing of feelings about

the, the, the, the hurt that people have suffered in the past, the abuse that they've suffered

and where, where they could have done something differently. They could have got out of a relationship a lot earlier. No one blames them for not how you know but they but they realize in retrospect they could have got out of a relationship a lot sooner or they should have ended into relationship that they did enter into or that they should have said something and didn't say anything after the fact.

I mean, kids who are abused as children

may be well almost certainly don't say anything about it and very understandably. But when they get older, do they think about it? Does it kill them? Is it is it killing them and they haven't done anything about they haven't said anything about it. Sometimes they decide it's time to say something about it.

So that's step five. And the Big Book gives you some tremendous promises. At the end of this part of Step 5, on page 75,

right after those detailed instructions, we pocket our pride and go to it, illuminating every twist of character, every dark crown of the past. Once we have taken this step, withholding nothing, we are delighted. We can look the world in the eye. We can be alone, at perfect peace, at ease. Our fears fall from us

now. Those are definite promises. Now we have some beginning promises. We begin to feel the nearness of our Creator. We may have had certain spiritual beliefs, but now we begin to have a spiritual experience. The feeling that the drink problem has disappeared, well, often, but not always, come strongly. We feel we're on the broad highway, walking hand in hand with the spirit of the universe. This is a checklist that I use after I finish my own Step 5 or I do step five with someone else. I ask the person who has done the Step 5,

are you delighted? Can you look the world in the eye? Can you be alone with perfect peace in these? Have your fears fallen from you? The first time I did this, the big book weigh exactly this way using these forms, The person I did them with, the person that we Co sponsored, Co buddied each other through the steps said OK, are you delighted? Can you look the world, the eye, etcetera, etcetera. And I said I don't know, I don't know if I can. He said, well, you better decide whether you can or not, whether you feel these things or not

iPhone him the next day I said I don't feel these things said you left something out in your Step 4. So I had filled out 30 pages of step four. What are you doing since you left something I'll try it. I don't know what to fill out. He said just sit down with the foreman right out of resentment. No, I'm not sure I did this, but I could easily have written down my first receptionist. I'm I resent the fact that I have to fill this form out again.

I might have done that.

I reset the fact that I'm not delighted. I, you know, I'm not a perfect piece of knees that the promises haven't come true from your something like that. But when I sat down, believe me, another 5 or 10 pages came out of resentments on the money again in the sense I realized there was more that came out like layers and an onion. You peel one layer off this time. Often there's more. The first time you do this, you may find as I did that I had to do four step forwards and four Step 5. So in the space of a month and 1/2

before, I could say I'm delighted. I can look the world in the eye. I can I can be alone with a perfect piece of knees and my fears have fallen from. But when that happened, I was floating. I was on that broad highway, walking hand in hand with the spirit of the universe.

I was feeling so good. Now I didn't repeat my step five. I didn't repeat my step four. I added to my step four. I added to my Step 5, and I was floating. Now have I finished step five? No, because I've admitted to another human being. I've written it to myself. The exact nature of my wrongs. Where have I admitted to God? The Big Book has a paragraph in here that I missed for a long time until my friend pointed it out to me. Bottom page 75

home we find a place where we can be quiet for an hour, carefully reviewing what we have done. We thank God from the bottom of our heart that we know him better. God thank you from the bottom of my heart that I know you better. So I'm now admitting to God and we review what we've done. I go through all the forms, I read them all. I see what what I've done. I understand all that I have shared.

Taking this book down from our shelf, we turn to the page which contains the 12 steps. I've always been amused. Blaine knows that there are a lot of literal big book thumpers who do everything the big Book says, and he once thought he'd make $1,000,000 by selling a Step 5 big bookshelf that you could take the book down from. Because it says take the book down from a shelf. So you here's a shelf dedicated to step five. You could just take it down from yourself.

Carefully reading the 1st 5 proposals. First five steps

we ask if we have admitted anything. God, if I omitted anything. So your reading steps one through 5. For we're building an arch to which we shall walk a free man at last. Is our work solid so far? Are the stones properly in place? If we skip them? The cement put in the foundation? Have we tried to make mortar without sand? In other words, have we been complete? You were sharing it now with God. And if the answer is yes and the answer, I'll make you bet. If you feel delighted, if you can look the world in the eye, if you can be alone, a perfect peace,

the answer is going to be yes. The answer is no. Phone your person up and give it away. Give away that what you've left out, but the chances are 99% that you will have given it all away. Turn the pace to 76. Here's step 6, which did not exist in the original 6 steps. If we can answer to our satisfaction, we look at step 6. We've emphasized willingness as being indispensable. Are we now ready to let God remove us from us? All the things that we have now admitted our objectionable, can He, can He now take them all? Everyone

now this way of doing it, we've only got 4 of them

and my experience has been with and I think there are people I know there are people here who use these forms that you've never felt unwilling to have God remove these four defects of character from you because you really you've realized how they're killing you. You know our way 12 and 12 talks about a list of

defects of character, some of which I've got to tell you, I don't think it's a defective character to gossip. I think gossiping is an action. I think the defective character that causes me to gossip is selfishness, dishonesty, self seeking of fear.

So I mean, that's. But at any rate, the big our OA 12 and 12 talks about holding on to some of our defects of character. And that may be true. If you have 40 of them, you may decide you want to hold on to three of them. I, I, I don't know, but nowhere does the big book suggest that we stop that same night. We, they give us a prayer if we're not willing and it says fine. When ready, we say something like this and then we have a step 7 prayer. Step 6 is not a big step. It's just a sense of am I willing to, I want God to remove them. OK,

You, you, you're not waiting until you're really really really, really, really ready.

But you will be, I mean, you'll be ready. You look at, he said. Well, yeah, Why? I don't want to be selfish, dishonest, self seeking, frightened. It sort of screwed up my life.

You know you'll you'll have it graphically in front of you and as well you'll have some guides for what life would be like if you didn't feel selfish to saw the self seeking and frightened. You'd have better relationships. You'd be, you'd be freed from fear, be a lot better life.

So that's step 6.

The one thing I must urge you, however you do your step 6, is don't dawdle there because nothing is going to happen at step six. It's just a step where you say I'm ready to have God remove my defects of carrot. It's just a moment in time and Bill put it in to make sure you couldn't wriggle out. It's the equivalent of Doctor Bob saying, do you want God to remove your defects of character? Yes, Doctor Bob, that's all it is,

and it's nothing more. You screwed up life. You want to get better? Yes,

fine, that's step 6. Not a big deal, but it would be a big deal for the alcoholic who's reading this book

where there was no one from a around

who had a moment of time where he really had to say themselves, yes, I'm ready, yes, I'm ready. So it is a big deal from Bill's point of view to put it in to make sure there's no wiggle room, but I don't I that's it. Step 7 is a prayer. When ready, we say something like this. Let's say this prayer, my creator, I'm now willing that you should have all of me, good and bad. I pray that you now remove from me every single defective character which stands in the way of my usefulness

to you and my fellows. Grant me strength as I go out from here to do your bidding. Amen. We've then completed step seven. We're not waiting for God to remove these defects of character before we go on to step 8:00 and 9:00, as some people seem to do. You say that prayer now God's going to remove these defects of character. What have you done to earn that? Nothing. It's time to make amends. That's when you're going to remove them. Because when you make an amend, you say to another person, I'm no longer the person who did that to you. I am sorry

for what I did and I'm no longer that person. God willing, I'll know. I'll continue to be a different person

because that's what the amend is. You become a different person.

So look at this prayer. I'm now willing that you should have all of Maine, good and bad.

I pray you remove from me every single defective character which stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows. I can keep every other defective character as long as it doesn't stand the way of my usefulness to other people. Now I've got a few obsessions, some of which I'll one of which I'll tell you about, and not all of which I ever will tell you about. And these obsessions occupy a little bit of my time on a day-to-day basis. One of those is an obsession I have with the great Italian conductor arterial Toscanini. I know more about them than anyone should.

Reasonably, no. I have a collection of books about him. I have a almost complete collection of almost every performance he ever conducted, and I subscribe to three e-mail lists that deal with him. And these e-mail lists are people by people who are sometimes really obsessive, who get angry to a fault about something where someone says, I really like this recording. And some will write and say all that. Recording Engineer was the stupidest

the world. He didn't know where to place the microphone. If he just place it one inch to the right, it would have been a much better sound. You're an idiot. You don't know anything about recording. What do you know? I'm an audio engineer. I mean, it goes into stuff like that. I'm not that bad. And let me tell you, if it occupied more than 15 minutes a day of my life, I would say it's standing in the way of my usefulness to my God and my and my fellows. But the fact that for 50 minutes I sort of amused myself by looking into something that I really enjoy,

I don't think it. I don't think it's an obsession that harms me. If it began to harm me, I would put it on my list of defects,

things that I, I that I think should be removed.

But that's step 7.

Sometimes I say it on my knees because the original step seven said humbling on our knees. Ask God to remove our defects of care

or our shortcomings. By the way, I used to read step 5-6 and seven very carefully on the wall. What is it we made to God, to ourselves, another human being, the exact nature of our wrongs. And step six has we're entirely ready to have God remove our defects of character. And step 7 is humbly ask God to remove our shortcomings. I used to say wrongs, defects of care,

shortcomings, 3 different concepts. What do they mean by that? Why is it different?

Each step must have a reason for changing the words. Until I heard Joe and Charlie say that Bill was asked about. They said, well, I was taught that you don't use the same words in every in the same in in succeeding paragraphs for variety's sake. And if you look at steps 7, in which on the wall it says ask God to remove our shortcomings, the prayer we say us God's remove our defects of character.

And if you lifted step five, it talks about not our wrongs. It talks about our defects of character. It says

on page 72

we have to admit to God, to ourselves, another human being, the exact nature of our defects, not our wrongs. So in the Big Book itself, it's all defects of character.

But that's step 7. And it is again a step where we don't delay. Listen to what the big Book says on page middle of page 76. Now we need more action, without which we find that faith without works is dead.

So there's no value in just saying a prayer because nothing happens. Prayers don't work unless they're accompanied by action. Faith without works is dead,

and I can't emphasize this enough, especially because I have found so many people in this program wait at step 7 to have their defects of character removed before they make their amends and they relapse. I find people waiting at step three, at step 6, and at step 7, No 346 and seven. I mean, they also sometimes weight at 5:00, but often at step three. They wait for God to hit them in the head. They wait for their will in their lives to be turned over already before they've done anything to deserve

that. In step four, they sometimes do a step four that makes them feel so lousy about themselves that they can't finish it. Or it asks them so many questions they can't answer them all and they just put it away because they they they get so tired of it. Or they feel that they have to put the good parts of them because they've already written the bad parts. They're feeling awful about themselves.

At step six, they wait to be really, really, really, really, really ready.

And it's step seven, they wait for God to remove their defects of character before they go on to make amends. And the big book you can see, I hope is pretty clear. Go on and on and on. Don't stop relentlessly finish it up. Because the only way we're ever going to get rid of our defects of character is by becoming different people. And the only way we're going to become different people is to make amends for the harms we've done already, or at least to be willing to make those amends and to make sure that we make them when making them

wouldn't injure other people.

So we're onto steps 8:00 and 9:00. The big book discusses them really together because they were only one thing. They were restitution, but clearly, not so clearly. But as in retrospect, clearly you don't make amends if making amends would be more harmful than not making the amend an hour away. 12 and 12 has a wonderful example. It's Mom. Hi. Listen, I just want to know. I've hated you for 20 years, but now I love you.

I mean, there's an amendment that was much better left unsaid.

You know, what's the value of telling someone unless they know? But what's the value of telling someone you've hated them for 20 years if they don't know you've hated them for 20 years? This guy I've gossip about doesn't know I've gossiped about him. What's the value of sanctum? You know what? I've made fun of you for five years or 10 years. I made fun of you and told the truth about your sickness to to many people. I have a true stories about how sick you are to many people and made fun of you in this. But I'm a different person now. I don't do that anymore.

If he ever finds out that I did

and he confronts me, I would say I'm sure you found out. But it is true. I stopped that a long time ago. And here's the amend I've made to you. What is the amend I make to him? Whenever people gossip about him, I say, you know, I used to gospel them, but I don't think it's funny anymore. I don't think he's well. I think the things he does are from a kind of a sickness. And I don't think it's fun to make fun of sick people.

I'm a party pooper, but that's what I do. And I do that with all kinds of gossip because I believe that a lot of the gossip that I used to indulge in was quite hurtful.

Now Blaine in a tape he he made that I heard once

asserted that the discussion of steps 8:00 and 9:00 in the big Book covered every single possible amend that could be made. And I read that carefully and I read this and I said that can't be the case. There are actually only 7 examples in this thing of amends that you can make. How can seven be the whole thing?

But again, I came to the conclusion that if the Big Book was as brilliant in other respects as I found it was, maybe I could find the brilliance in here too. And I I think I have. Actually, the Big Book has only four amends. It discusses

there are three direct amends and one living amend, and it discusses them in in that order. And the three direct amends it discusses in a particular order, and then it discusses them again, not quite in the same order from another point of view. And I'll show you how that works.

So they say. Now we need more action. Let's look at steps 8:00 and 9:00. We have a list of all persons we have harmed and to whom we are willing to make amends. We made it when we took inventory. So all this thought about, oh, burn your inventory after you've given away is not a very good idea because it's from that inventory that you'll get your list.

Now we go out to our fellows and repair the damage done in the past. We attempt to sweep away the debris which is accumulated out of our effort to live on self will and run the show ourselves. If we have in the will to do this, we ask until it comes. Remember it was agreed at the beginning we would go to any lengths for victory over alcohol.

There is a step eight and nine form in the book that I've given you or that has been given to you

and

it's found and it's also a separate form, but it's found

on page 53.

Well, I'm I'm, I'm, I'm. I'm. I recommend it to you, but I I want to analyze the the

passages first,

so they say on page 76. Probably there are still some misgivings as we look over the list of business acquaintances and friends we've heard. We may feel diffident, uncomfortable about going to some of them on a spiritual basis. Let us be reassured to some people we need not and probably should not emphasize the spiritual feature in our first approach. We might prejudice them. At the moment we're trying to put our lives in order. But this is not an end in itself. Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and the people about us.

So our our putting our lives in order is really to make ourselves more fit to do God's will, whatever that means to you or whatever it means to me.

It is seldom wise to approach an individual who still smarts from our justice team and announced that we've gone religious and the prize room. This would be called leading with a chin.

So the first set of amends are direct amends, person to person amends and their direct amends for the harm that you've done. Now, you cannot make an amendment unless you know the harm that you've done to a person. You can't know the kind of a men you have to make unless you know what harm you've done, right? So I'll talk about that later. I just want to talk in general about the big books categories. The first category is what I would call eyeball to eyeball. You go to a person and you say I am sorry for what I have done.

God willing, it will not happen again. I will make it up in any way I can. So that's eyeball to eyeball. You're looking at a person and you're apologizing.

That's discussed from the middle of page 77 to the middle of page 78. And I'll go into that in a in a few minutes.

The next one is discussed in the second paragraph on page 78. Restitution in terms of finances, harmed someone financially. You've taken something from him or her, you've broken something. You owe restitution, specific compensation for the harm that's been done.

And the third one is discussed at the bottom of page 78. And that is where

eyeball to eyeball apology and eyeball to eyeball restitution isn't enough for the kind of harm you've done. You may have harmed society. You may have done harm. The reputation of an individual. Apologizing the individual is of no great value if you haven't helped that person's reputation in general. I mean, if if five years ago you harmed a person's reputation, apology to that person isn't enough to make up for the harm you've done.

So the third kind of direct amend is going beyond the person and taking the public consequences

of your actions and in some way trying to undo them by going more public. And I'll give you the three examples that they use in a moment, but I only tell you that they then take those same three things

eyeball to eyeball, apology, restitution, and taking the public consequences. And we examine them beginning on page 7079,

in the light of whether doing that might harm other people. And what do we do if it would harm other people?

The first example they give is of a restitution example. We're paying someone back would starve the family you currently have. Can you do that? Is it appropriate to starve the current family in order to pay off the previous debtor?

The second example they give is the taking the public consequences. If you're admitting to the public that you have lied about another human being would harm your family and your business partners reputation. Can you do that and what do you do and how do you figure it out? And the third example is eyeball to eyeball apology. If you've had an affair and your wife doesn't know about it, do you tell their wife about the affair? Would that do more harm than good?

And that's another question. So it's the same three kinds of amends. They're discussed in a slightly different order and they're discussed from the point of view of will harm happen. But there are only three kinds of direct amends. You either apologize, you make up for you, you compensate in some way, or you go more public and take the public consequences. I can't imagine any other kinds of direct amends. There are, there are living amends. That's the fourth kind of amend, the living amendment where you're living differently. But

really there are only three. I'm sorry, here's compensation. I'm taking it bigger because the harm I did to you was even bigger than one to one. And so the big book discusses that. So the first one is found on page 77 that gives suggestions for how we approach people. And they talk about the question of how we how to approach the man we hated will arise is on middle of page 77.

So they're dealing with difficult situations. It may be he's done us more harm than we've done him. And though he may have a we may have acquired a better attitude toward him, we're still not too keen about admitting our faults.

Nevertheless, with the person we dislike, we take the bit in our teeth. It's harder to go to an enemy than to a friend, but we find it much more beneficial to us. We go to him in a helpful and forgiving spirit, confessing our former I'll feeling and expressing our regret. Under no condition do we criticize such a person or argue. Simply, we tell him that we will never get over drinking until we have done our utmost to straighten out the past. We're there to sweep off our side of the street,

realizing that nothing worthwhile can be accomplished until we do so, never trying to tell him what he should do. His faults are not discussed.

We just stick to our own.

Now here's a promise. And this is a fascinating promise. If our manner is calm, frank and open, we will be gratified with the result. And they go on. They say nine times out of 10, the person thanks you and and and confesses his faults and you become friends again and, and all that. But it says it shouldn't matter if they kick you out in your ear,

you will be gratified with the results. And this has happened to me. I actually apologize to a person who didn't accept really my apology, who just sort of just brushed it off. I don't remember that. Yeah, I knew that this person remembered it. And that person really remained quite distant from me for some time. Gradually there was a warmth, but for some time. But let me tell you, I felt gratified. I had swept off my side of the street. I had done my best on my side to make up for whatever harm I

done, and I felt great.

And that's true. You know, he didn't quite kick me out of my ear, but he certainly dismissed me.

So that's an apology.

This is what I have done wrong. Now what if someone has harmed you, What do you owe that person? This is a good example of why you should never anticipate

a step before you're at that step because there all kinds of people are going to say at Step 4, you mean, I'm going to have to apologize to that, so and so who did these awful things to me? I'll never do that. I'm not going to do Step 4 because I don't want to do step 9.

But the answer is by the time you get to step 9, two things will have happened. One is your sense of what you have to apologize for. You may not have to apologize, but your sense of that will have changed. And I'll give you a couple of examples. And the 2nd is you'll be ready because you'll know it's that is standing in the way of your recovery. So you know that you have to do it. But what do you do? I mean, I've had three friends in this program who have had who have suffered a tremendous

sexual assault.

Each one dealt with the Amend in a different way, but each one started from the proposition that that person who did this harmed himself

by becoming less of a human being. OK,

what a men do I owe this person? Well, once said the person is now 94 years old and is a doddering old fool who is living alone and there's nothing that will do him any good and I would only do him harm by doing anything more. So I will do nothing.

Second one, I already gave you a hint of this actually said at a family meeting at a family gathering, I want you to know that X number of years ago this man abused me sexually when I was a child and I am not letting my children near him. He is still at the age where he could still be doing harm

and she felt that that was

that was allowing him or preventing him from doing more harm to himself. That was her men. Same way that you might break a kids arm if he was about to jump off a Cliff in holding him, you might break the arm, but you're preventing him from dying. So yes, sometimes you have to do more harm, some harm in order to to allow less harm to be done. So that was her sense of what she had to do to prevent that person from doing more harm.

A third person went to the police and reported the sexual assault and had the person brought to trial.

Now, in each one of those, I mean, you can see that there are three completely different approaches and there's no answer to what's right for you and what's right for you at the time. And you'll have to examine that. And I have always used when I when I fill out my step eight form and step nine form, I will always discuss with someone else if I'm if I'm not sure what to do. People within this program have all kinds of different ways of

finding,

of deciding whether or not there are harms done if you help them, if you do the amend or not, and finding various creative ways of doing immense. So the first one is apology.

The second one, most Alcoholics owe money.

Page 78. We do not dodge. Our creditors tell me what we're trying to do. We make no bones about our drinking. Oh yeah, they usually know it anyway, whether we think so or not. Nor are we afraid of disclosing your alcoholism on the theory it may cause financial harm. Approached in this way, the most ruthless creditor will sometimes surprise us, arranging the best deal

we can. We let these people know we're sorry our drinking has made us slow to pay. We must lose our fear of credit, no matter how far we have to go reliable to drink, if we're afraid to taste them. Joe and Charlie talk about a guy who who spent 25 years paying off it. I don't know, 20 bucks a month

all he could afford some some huge debt that he owed to someone because he had stolen from them.

But he did what he could.

So that's the restitution. And there are all kinds of different kinds of compensation that we can make if we've harmed someone. I once was responsible when I worked as a page in a library in Chicago for 300 bad copies. I, I mind was wandering and I made 300 bad copies and I sent them 25 bucks, which American, which I thought would cover the cost of those copies. 20 years later, never heard from them. I explained why I was doing it, never heard from them,

but I hid it because I was afraid of being fired and I always felt bad about my lack of honesty in that respect.

Then they say perhaps we may have committed a criminal offence which might land us in jail if it were known to the authorities. Maybe we'd be short in our accounts, unable to make good. Maybe it's only a petty offense such as padding expensive count. Maybe we're divorced and remarried but haven't kept up the alimony to number one. I mean, these are all cases where it goes beyond and she has a warrant out for our arrest. These are cases where we owe a debt in a sense to the public or to more than just one person, where we owe something beyond that.

Page 79 they say. Although these reparations take innumerable forms, there's some general principles which we find guiding, reminding ourselves we've decided to go to any lengths to find a spiritual experience.

We ask that we be given strength and direction to do the right thing, no matter what the personal consequences may be. We may lose our position or reputation or face jail, but we are willing. We have to be. We must not shrink at anything. So those are the three direct amends. And now at the begin middle of page 79, they're now going to go back to those direct amends and examine the issue of whether other people are involved. They say usually, however, other people are involved. Therefore, we are not to be the hasty and foolish martyr

who would needlessly sacrifice others to save himself from the alcoholic pit. They tell a story of a guy who owes money to his ex-wife and who if he paid all the money owes to his ex-wife, would starve his current family. He consults with his family, he consults with his wife, and he ends up writing a letter saying I can't pay you all back, everything back all at once because if I did so, I would starve the other family.

But if you, if you force me to go to jail, I'll go to jail. But this is the best I can do

because he can't make compensation restitution for the full amount if he would harm someone else in doing so.

OK, so that's one example.

The next example on page 80 is about a guy who ruined the reputation of another person and realized that if he now righted the reputation of that person, he might harm his family and his business partner. He talks to them, he asks for guidance, they give him permission. He gets up in church one day that I guess this is a very small town and admits his wrongdoing and everything's fine.

And then a long example is right at the bottom of the page, and that's taking the public consequences. He takes the public. He goes public with it. He doesn't just apologize to the individual. He goes public. And then at the bottom, page 80 is eyeball to eyeball,

and it discusses the whole issue of if you have an affair, do you tell your spouse

you've stopped the affair? You have to do that. But do you tell your spouse? They say, we think not. If she doesn't know about it or he doesn't know about it, we don't think you should because that creates more problems. If she knows about it and wants more details, you don't give her the details because that involves another human being, the person with whom you had an affair. You don't want to cause any more harm. Do I say to a person, I'm so sorry I didn't stop our relationship before it got even sicker