Bill L. from Dunellen, NJ and Mike L. from West Orange, NJ reading To Employers & A Vision For You (pages 136 -153) at a Big Book step workshop in West Orange, NJ

Good evening everyone. My name is Mike and I am an alcoholic.

Happy to be here on this lovely July 10th evening.

Tonight what we're going to attempt to do is

take a look at the Chapter 2 employers and maybe a little bit different way that than you may have taken a look at it before.

As I begin to really look at and study to employers, which begins on page 136,

I really saw how

just as the the other chapters we cover Chapter 7 and and eight and some of Chapter 9 has a lot of really good 12 step tips in there tips and tools that we can use to 12 step another alcoholic into recovery. And I began to take a look at 2 employers and, and saw that it really overlapped a lot with

particularly Chapter 7,

working with others,

as I may have said last week or previous weeks. For a long time, I was ignorant to the information that that was in a lot of these later chapters, particularly chapters 8-9 and ten, because I, I looked at the title 2 wives and maybe scanned over it a little bit. And I, I said, well, I'm not a wife And, and at that time I, I wasn't married. So there's probably nothing in here for me. And I looked at the family afterwards and

well, I'm still lucky enough to have a family, but I don't live with them. So who needs that? And two employers, I'm not an employer, not an employer. And I'm lucky enough to be an employee. So there, there's probably nothing in there that that's good for me. And, and I remain ignorant for a few years about these chapters and finally begin to take a look at them. And I think it's,

I think it's a shame that

I don't know about you guys, but I, I've heard and been to a heck of a lot of big book studies, big book workshops, retreats, whatever you want to call them. And I know it's, chances are it's probably for a lack of time. But I think it's a a shame that usually when Sunday morning rolls around, there's really only a drive by shooting done with steps 1011 and 12. And, and you really don't, you really don't get into too much

in step 12 other than

carry this message to others and take a maybe a quick look at Chapter 7. And you're lucky if you read the last two paragraphs on page 164.

But I, I got a set of tapes a couple years ago and

the guy and his wife who who was in all Anon, they took the time out to really look at these chapters and really explain what's going on in these chapters. And

because of those tapes and because of a couple other people in my life who had also taken a time to look at these later chapters or buddy mine, Dave calls them the lost chapters. And I won't, I won't tell you what I used to call these chapters, but what color.

So I, there's a lot of good stuff in here and I think we really miss a lot if we don't take a look at them. But

what I'm going to attempt to do tonight is take a look at Chapter 10 to the employers in a little bit different way that you might be accustomed to and

take a look at it in a way that really coincides with working with others.

Look at the 12 step tips and probably find out that there's as many tips in here for me to 12 someone 12 steps someone into the fellowship and into the program and to work with a drunk and and help them with the program. There's probably as many tips in this chapter as there is in Chapter 7 working with others. If I take a look at it the way we're going to take a look at it tonight,

if there's anyone in this room that

is an employer, I strongly suggest you

read this chapter from from front to back and really take a look at at what it's saying.

If you would turn to page 140

and like I said, I'm I'm going to take a look at some of the tips in here and if there's time left when we get done with with this chapter, I'll I'll get into a vision for you a little bit. And for anyone who who may have forgotten or hasn't been here before, this is our second to last week. We'll we'll wrap it up next week. And I think what I'd like to do time permitting, and if you guys would humor me in this,

anyone who has gone through this book again and anyone who has gone through the steps during the past 4 1/2 months that we've been getting together here. I think what I'd like to do is open it up at the very end of, of next week and hear from you guys and hear from maybe the, the benefits and rewards and, and some stuff that you discovered and, and going through the steps again and

maybe renewing your, your spirit with this process.

So for the regulars here,

love to hear from you in that regard.

141st full paragraph.

And this is, of course, in regards to dealing with alcoholism. Can you discard the feeling that you're dealing only with habit, with stubbornness or weak will? If this presents difficulty rereading chapters two and three, and that's the chapter There's a Solution and more about alcoholism, where the alcoholic sickness is discussed at length might be worthwhile.

And remember, we're talking about one-on-one work here with another alcoholic. And if I take a look at my own story and my own experience and my own drinking habits and pattern, of course, if I'm working with another real alcoholic,

of of course, I'm going to be able to discard the feeling that, that I'm dealing only with habit. Because being a real alcoholic myself, I know that alcoholism and, and drinking for real alcoholic is much more than than habitual. It goes back to the, to the mental obsession and the physical craving for more liquor once I put in my body and what we've been talking about for weeks and months now,

the, the spirituality, you know, the, the way I felt since the, since I can first remember. You know, that, that feeling of just not being able to fit in that the feeling of uselessness, being full of fear, not being of real help to other people, not being able to make a happy and successful life for myself and, and having trouble

in personal relationships of all things.

Can you imagine that

stubbornness? I mean come on, I've never met a drunk that hasn't been stubborn and weak. Will. You know that this this thing isn't about being weak Will as as I may have thought early on and as people in my life who were obviously non Alcoholics may have may have thought.

You know, it's always a good idea to go back and and read chapters two and three. Their solution more about alcoholism.

A good friend of mine, Howard has said multiple amount of times that chapter three more about alcoholism is probably the best tool to use for a chronic relapser than than we've ever seen before. You know, because it it really gets into the mental states which precedes the alcoholic going back in into a drinking spray.

So

for me, when I'm working one-on-one with another alcoholic or trying a 12 step an alcoholic into our program, it's not only a good idea for me to do some reading up on Chapter 7 working with others, but it's also a good idea to take a look at some of the other chapters, particularly three. Skip on over to page 141.

And for, for those that have been here, we've,

you know, with earlier portions of the book, we've pretty much gone live by line and this thing would probably drag out to be 30 weeks if we did that. So we're, we're going to skip around and, and touch on some of the highlights and 1:41 right smack dab in the middle of the first full paragraph.

See if you can, not necessarily the page number, but see when I read this, see if you can relate this to what part of Chapter 7 it's talking about. And, and I'll mention that after I read this. If you are sure your man does not want to stop, he may as well be discharged. And of course, they're, they're talking about being discharged from the job there. The sooner the better.

You're not doing him a favor by keeping him on.

Firing such an individual may prove to be a blessing. It may be just the jolt he needs. And don't get me wrong, I'm as far as one-on-one sponsorship is concerned, I'm not much one for this business about, well, I fired my sponsor or I fired my sponsee because they drank. Again, No, I'm not talking about that stuff. To me. What what these few lines speak to is page 96 where it talks about that

you know, if it just if your prospect doesn't want to go through with the program, don't don't spend too much time on any one person. Search out another alcoholic and and try to give it. Give away what you have to somebody else who really who really wants it and needs it.

Skip down to the next paragraph,

but there are many men who want to stop and with them you can go far. You're you're understanding treatment of their cases will pay dividends. And you know, me being a real alcoholic, that's what I have to offer is a lot of understanding within with another, with another job. You know,

I guess early on I went, when I would work with people and, and they would, they would go back to drinking or, or they just didn't want the program or, or whatever.

I guess I, I forgot who and what I was because I, I used, I used to, I used to take that stuff personally and, you know, get mad at them and they drank on me. You know, and the, the more and more I worked with other people, the more and more I worked with my sponsor and the more and more I did this work myself. I realized that they have when it when it comes to going back and drinking, they had no choice in the matter.

You know, they're they're real Alcoholics

and the natural thing for real alcoholic who is left untreated and isn't armed with the facts about himself and hasn't engaged in the spiritual solution at this book offers. The natural thing that they're going to do is, is to go back and drink again. You know, and I took a look at myself and I saw that when I didn't have the solution and when I wasn't willing to apply these steps in my life,

I drank.

So,

you know, it's also a great statement of hope in there where it reads. But there are many men who want to stop, and with them you can go very far.

Page 142

and for a few minutes, we're really going to stay focused on 142 and 143 because there's a lot of good stuff in here. This first paragraph I'm going to show you how to use as a tool.

Probably for a good year now, I've been using this as a tool to to 12 step an alcoholic. Even before we get going in the steps. When we talked about working with others, I told you a little bit

about what I do with what can be called the step before the step, how I, how I 12 step an alcoholic and, and you know, why waste his time and why waste my time if they're not willing to, to go through with the steps. And

for those that weren't here for that, there's two questions that I asked them. First of all, I outlined the program of action form. And I do maybe a little 20 or 30 minute pitch on all 12 steps. And it's nothing that's rehearsed. I just go from my own experience and a lot of times this is over the phone because they hear about this crazy guy Mike, who actually uses the big book to take people through the steps.

So they, they somehow get a hold of my number and they call me and, and

you know, they'll say something really wacky like will you sponsor me? And, and I'll say, well, wait a minute, you don't know me and you don't know how I sponsor. So let me tell you how that looks like. You know, we, we talked about in the fellowship. Well, I got to be willing to go to any lengths, but none of us ever bothered to tell the people what any lengths looks like. So I try to do that with them. And I and I outlined the 12 steps to them and

I tell them my experience with each one of the 12 steps. And if, if this is what they want,

if this is what they want to do, I tell them what what that's going to entail. I make no, I make no bones about a written inventory in the fourth step. I let them know that that we're going to do

three major inventories and we're going to write a sex ideal and and I let them know that they're going to write about their resentments, their fears and their sex condom.

And I don't soft sell it. And

I talked to him real strongly about immense and I let him know that if they owe money, and I've never known an alcoholic not to owe money, if they owe money, they will pay the money back. Not because I say so. That's because what the big book says. And it says if we if we don't do it, we're live on a drink again.

So after I outline that process for them, I give them anywhere from depending on how bad off they are, how much of A grace period my intuition tells me that they have. I get many wear from 24 to 70,

72 hours to think about it, to think about if this is really what they want to do.

And, and I'll have to turn to page 59 and look at each step one by one and have them read the step to themselves. And if they care to do it in, in prayer form, they can do that. And I'll have them answer two questions for each step.

First question is, is this what I want to do? Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves? Is this the step I want to do? Do I want to do this? And the second question I asked them is,

am I willing to go to any lengths to do this? And they already know what any length looks like because I just got done explaining that tone and I haven't do that with each step. And just because they may answer, well, I don't know if this is really what I want to do. Let's say maybe for Stepalette, I don't knock them out of the game because of that. I just know as a, as a sponsor or someone who's helping them through the steps, I just

that when we get to that point, I'm probably going to need to spend a little bit more time with them on that particular step. Kind of kind of also works like like the Bill W exercise that that we found in Bill's story,

you know, with those people. I don't know if I mentioned this when when I went over it in Chapter 7, but when I go over it like that, and I hate to use these words, but it usually

it usually shies away or not shies away. It

it gets rid of the riffraff, so to speak. And and I don't really that's just lack of a better words. I, I don't, I don't know what work it,

it gets rid of people that just really aren't interested in going through this in the 1st place. I take, I take back the word riffraff. I really didn't mean that.

No, I won't say.

Speaking of rehab mentality, there's a buddy of mine by the name of Indian Dave from Delaware. And I don't know why you reminded me of this, but you did.

They have this thing in in Delaware that people are always talking about Karen and Sharon, and they've told me one time that that's the rehab twins, Karen and Sharon. So for whatever that's worth.

But my point was

when I outline the program like that,

the people who really aren't interested in the 1st place, they usually don't call back, you know? And again, it just boils down to why waste their time and why? Why waste my time when I could be really helping somebody else that wants it?

So after that long diatribe. First full paragraph on 142.

Next, he can be assured that you do not intend to lecture, moralize, or condemn. And that's kind of a what Bill and I like to call hookback references. It kind of says the same thing on page 91,

a few lines up from the bottom,

that if this was done formally, it was because of misunderstanding. And again, they're talking about the employer there. If possible, express a lack of hard feeling toward him. At this point, it might be well to explain alcoholism, the illness. Again, another great 12 stepping reference.

Explain alcoholism, the illness. You know, that's what Doctor Silkworth did for Bill.

Building gets sober until Doctor Silkworth explain alcoholism as an illness.

Say that you believe he is gravely ill, just as Silky did with Bill. He's a gravely ill person with this qualification being perhaps fatally ill, and I asked a few questions here. Does he want to get well?

Now, I've found four different questions in the next few lines that I can ask the new prospect and I'll read through them and then I'll break them up into the four questions and I'll show you what that looks like. So it says does he want to? Does he want to get well? And I add to that, does he want to quit and get well? Because I think quitting first is

probably a good thing to do. You asked Because many Alcoholics being warped and drugged. Can you imagine that? A drunk being warped and drugged

do not want to quit. But does he, will he take every necessary step, submit to anything to get well, to stop drinking forever? So the four questions that I that I that I asked the prospect is one Do you want to quit drinking for good and for all and get well?

The second one is,

will you take or are you willing to take every necessary step?

That's the second question.

Are you willing to take every necessary step? Third question is, are you willing to submit to anything?

And the 4th question to get well, excuse me. And the 4th question is, are you willing and ready to stop drinking forever?

You know, I think in the beginning it's a real good idea to, to tell a newcomer, well, you know, just if you have no hard time today, just don't drink for today. But I also need to, when I'm 12 stepping people, I also let let I need to let them know that this is for a good and for all basis. I mean

telling somebody just don't drink for today, well, they might get the bright idea. Well, then I won't drink today, but I sure as heck is drink tomorrow.

And of course, you could always pull the gag on them that, you know, once you get through today, it it, it stole today because tomorrow never gets here. But it was real important for me to see statements in in this book to stop drinking forever. Doctor Bob said quit drinking for good and for all you know,

Yes, the one day at a time,

the one day at a time slogan or what have you is very effective. I had some really rough times in the beginning and quite frankly, I had to take an hour at a time sometimes.

But I think what one day at a time really refers to is that I quit drinking for good and for all. And via this 12 step program, I'm able to live life one day at a time, You know, and through speaking Alzheimer's and listen to a lot of lot of tapes and, and reading stuff in our history. That's what the early members of Alcoholics Anonymous were about. They're about, they're about living life one day at a, one day at A

and because of that process, because of following the 12 steps, they're able to stay stopped in their drinking for good and for all.

So I found these four questions pretty useful.

If he says yes, does he really mean it? Or down inside, does he think he is fooling you and that after rest and treatment he will be able to get away with a few drinks now and then? And, you know, fortunately, we, we have a lot of people in our fellowship that do that. They go to,

they go to a rehab center or a detox and, and dry out for a little while. And, you know, they, they get the quickie loop special and, and

get their tires rotate it and, and you know, they, they can, they can have a few drinks or, or so they think, but I, I've never seen a real alcoholic who's really afflicted with this disease be able to have a few drinks.

Yeah,

maybe for a little while, maybe for a couple days, but once the the physical allergy bites you in the rear, so to speak, we're we're off to the races again.

We believe a Mensch or or a woman should should be thoroughly probed on these points.

Be careful with that word. Probed be no one got it. Did you get it? You got it.

Be satisfied he is not deceiving himself or you. Whether you mention this book is a matter for your discretion.

You know, again, that's a reference to the employer, but also remember that in Chapter 7 more working with others, they they tell us don't mention this book right off the bat. If the new prospect sees it and he's interested, then he can talk a little bit about the book. But you know, I don't know about you guys, but when, when I first got, when the Spirit of God first awakened within me and,

and

I started working these steps and I started working with other drunks, man, I, I started pounding this book like it was a Bible or something. And and that doesn't really turn drunks on too much, you know, no more than Bible pounding than did with us. So

I'm very careful with that today. If he temporizes and still thinks he can ever drink again. Even beer. Oh, I thought beer was a beverage.

He might as well be discharged after the next Bender. Which if an if an alcoholic he is almost certain to have. He should understand that emphatically. Either you're dealing with a man who can and will get well, or you're not. If not, why waste time with him? This may seem severe, but is usually the best course.

After satisfying yourself that your man wants to recover and that he will go to any extreme to do so, you may suggest a definite course of action. Again, there's that reference to go into any lengths. Again, it's saying it's using different words that mean the same thing. He's saying go to any extreme to do so.

By the way, this is the only chapter in the big Book that wasn't or the only chapter in in the text portion of the big Book that was not written by Bill Wilson. This chapter was written by Hank Park. First,

let's see.

So you may suggest a definite course of action For most Alcoholics who are drinking or who are just getting over a spree, a certain amount of physical treatment is desirable, even imperative. Dr. Silkworth says it a little differently. And you know, he says in so many words that it's it's a hospitalization is usually a good idea for a drunk. The matter of physical treatment should, of course, be referred to your own doctor, or their own doctor

if you're working one-on-one with a drunk.

Whatever the method, its object is to thoroughly clear mind and body of the effects of alcohol.

That's why detoxes and and treatment centers are

are a good idea because they clear the mind and the body.

But what happens sometimes is that people who come now, folks anonymous after a three day or five day stint, as in a detox or a 28 day stint, if there is any detoxes around for 28 days anymore,

a drunks think they're good to go and and then they're recovered just based on on those 28 days. And what we forget is that those 28 days was just good enough to to clear the clear out the body of the alcohol and to clear the mind a little bit.

But now what we're charged with in Alcoholics Anonymous is to awaken them spiritually. And the only way I've

come to learn or come to experience a spiritual awakening is through the 12 steps of Alcohol Anonymous, at least for this drunk. I mean, there's, there's people been having spiritual awakening since the beginning of time, but the most effective,

the most effective

way to bring about recovery for the most amount of Alcoholics has been the the 12 steps.

Skip down to the next paragraph. It's the middle of page 143. If your man accepts your offer, it should be pointed out that physical treatment is but a small part of the picture. Though you are providing him with the best possible medical attention. He should understand that he must undergo a change of heart. You know another way to say a spiritual experience or a spiritual awakening? A change of heart.

Next few lines are really important. To get over drinking will require a transformation of thought and attitude.

Boy I'd love to hear that as a topic in NAA. Meaning, huh,

Stick your hand up. When, when? When someone says, well, does anyone have a topic in this meeting? Yeah, I do. I'd like to hear about the process that that for as many people who who would like to share about it, I'd like to hear the process that we've all taken to get over drinking. What's the process you've done to have a transformation of thought and attitude?

And after that

brought up, it would probably be

followed up with a lot of moments of silence. All by the Lord's Prayer, of course,

but I judge Noah

we this is what I get for listening the Chris are before I do one of these things

unbelievable. We all had the place, recovery above everything.

Pretty important statement, huh? We all had the place, recovery above everything. For without recovery, we would have lost both home and business.

Important stuff there,

if you know, and this is often said in the fellowship that which I place above recovery, I will lose and and that's that's a very true statement. Go to 144

first full paragraph. We should we suggest. Let me see if I can say that again. We suggest you draw the book to the attention of the Doctor Who is to attend your patient during treatment.

If the book is read the moment the patient is able. And, and this is the key statement here. If the book is read the moment the patient is able while acutely depressed, they made reference to that in Chapter 7. Realization of his condition may come to him. You know, it's, it's better to approach a man who's coming off a Bender because chances are he's going to be depressed and he's going to be more receptive.

We hope the doctor will tell the patient the truth about his condition, much like Silky did with Bill,

whatever that happens to be. The truth is, if you continue to go on drinking, pal, you're screwed

When when the man is presented with this volume, it is best that no one tell him. He must abide by its suggestions. The man must decide for himself, you know. And it's a fine line really, because I tell you my hopefully my book pounding days are done. And the last thing I want to be referred to in Alcoholics Anonymous is a big book thumper

because of statements like this. Because that type of mentality, that type of attitude has the ability to turn off as many people as it as it does

with the mentality of just don't drink and go to meetings. But you know that this statement is very true because it it says that first of all, I can't tell anybody what they must do when it comes in anything.

All I can do is tell them what worked for me and suggest that if they can identify with my story, if they be real alcoholic,

then this can and will work for them also.

But of course they must decide for themselves. And that little exercise that I bring people through when I give them anywhere from 24 to send me two hours to make up their mind, it speaks directly to this because during that time,

they're they're making up their mind, they're deciding for themselves if, if this is the work that they want to do.

You're betting, of course, that your changed attitude plus the contents of this book will turn the trick. In some cases it will, and in others it may not. But we think that if you persevere, the percentage of successes will gratify you.

Skip down a couple lines just the end of end that a paragraph and it says. We are sure a great deal can be accomplished by

the use of the book alone.

You know, I've seen people.

First of all, I don't know many drunks that that have been able to read this book cover to cover. That's why I no longer send them home with a big book and say read the first. Read the Doctor's Opinion 1st 164 pages and call me up and tell me what you think because I know I was not able to do that. So what I like to do is, is read the book with people or read the, in some cases, read the book to people

to, to the people I'm working with. But I've seen people begin to read this book on their own and man, they, they just lit up because the book it brings great hope. You know, it's, it's one of the best, it's one of the best tools for sponsorship I've I've ever seen. You know, it's that old adage of I better be on my best guard because I, I never know when, when I'm going to be the best example of a, of a big book for somebody else.

But I think the best example of the big book is this big book. So that's why I, I try my best not to add or, or delete from it. And I try, I try to give him the, the real deal.

I, I usually, whenever I, I give a talk or or tell my story or or do one of these things, as I'm sure I did way back in March when we got started, is I usually let people know that if you hear me say anything that cannot be reconciled with this big book, Alcoholics Anonymous, don't pay too much attention to it.

And please tell me about it after the meeting.

So again, we're sure a great deal can be accomplished by use of the book alone. 1:45

three lines down. In this connection, can you remain undisturbed if the man proceeds to tell you shocking things? This is indirect connection with with the instructions for the employer,

but that that can that can be applied to, to our fifth step. You know,

can I, can I remain undisturbed if someone tells me that he murdered somebody or that he, he

hit and ran somebody while in a blackout? You know, that stuff doesn't disturb me today,

but what I what I need to do is show that other person that I have a confidence and I need to keep that stuff to myself and, and, and not tell anybody else about it. I

quite frankly, usually when I hear footsteps nowadays, I forget what they tell me anyway. So having only a couple brain cells left has its advantages.

But as as a drunk who's who's been sober for a little while and and who's been doing this work for a while,

really nothing much shocks me anymore. He may, for example, reveal that he has padded his expense account. Alcoholics padding the expense account. No, never.

Or that he has planned to take your best customers away from you. As far as the employer is concerned, this is night step stop, you know. In fact, he may say almost anything if he has accepted our solution, which, as you know, the man's rigorous honesty.

I've also learned that there is a fine line between rigorous honesty and stupidity.

If you're not on your 9th step, I don't know that's necessarily a good idea to go to your employer and say I've been stealing from you for years.

You know, let's do some inventory. Let's do a fifth step. Let's let's do six and seven and, and make our eight step list and, and then

and we can go to the employer and attacked full and sensible manner and, and admit these things and, and,

and try to make amends.

In fact, he may say almost anything if he has accepted our solution, which is, you know, the man's rigorous honesty. Can you charge this off as you would a bad account and start fresh with him? If he owes you money, you may wish to make terms. Good night step stuff in here. If he speaks of his home situation, you can undoubtedly make helpful suggestions.

Great tips for for a sponsor sponsee

or what I like to call a sponsor protege relationship. If he speaks of his home situation, you can undoubtedly make helpful suggestions. By no mean, by no means am I a doctor. I'm not a marriage counselor, I'm not an attorney or anything like that. But what I do is have I have experience and I've been able to make some amends and restitution within my family.

I've been able to

overcome some situations in my marriage, so if I'm working with another alcoholic and and they discuss similar problems with me, I'm able to share with them solutions that that I've applied and and the results.

Can he talk frankly with you so long as he does not bear business tales or criticize his associates? This directly speaks to gossip and a few lines down it's going to talk more about gossip

with this kind of employee. Such an attitude will will command undying loyalty.

Next sentence

This next sentence is by no means an understatement.

Enemies of us Alcoholics or resentment, Jealousy, envy, frustration and fear.

Again, no understatement there.

Skip down to the next paragraph and again, we're talking about gossip here. One is 1 instance comes to mind in which a malicious individual was always making friendly jokes about an Alcoholics drinking exploits. In this way he was slightly carrying tails.

Carrying tales means gossiping.

In another case, an alcoholic was sent to a hospital for treatment. Only a few knew of it at first, but within a short time it was billboarded. Can you imagine? Billboard it throughout the entire company.

Joe Schmo is gone to Riyadh. News at six. Naturally, this sort of thing decreases the man's chance of recovering. And just to, I guess, get up on my high horse for a minute about gossip and Alcoholics Anonymous.

I get real passionate about this. So I have to kind of

be careful of what I'm going to say,

but I've seen one of the greatest killers and Alcoholics Anonymous I've seen is gossiping. And it it's a real shame breaking of confidences and fist steps or just talking behind people's back and and backbiting and slandering.

It's a killing thing. It kills.

Besides alcohol and resentments, I I think it kills more Alcoholics more more than anything else,

It's it's a real dangerous thing.

Don't do it. Please don't don't gossip period in your daily life, but please don't gossip and Alcoholics Anonymous. It kills people.

That was actually said with love and kindness, I think.

So naturally, this sort of thing decreases the man's chance of recovering.

Page 146, first full paragraph.

Yeah, we might get done with this and under an hour.

Hope you guys have a lot to say tonight

as a class. Alcoholics are energetic people.

I don't know when I was drinking, I don't know if I was too energetic.

I was kind of a couch potato myself, but I think they're they're speaking towards when when we get sober here. They work hard and play hard. Your man should be on his metal to make good. Being somewhat weekend and faced with physical and mental readjustment to a life which knows no alcohol,

he may overdo. Can you imagine an alcoholic overdoing anything

I you may have to curb his desire to work 16 hours a day, much over 8 hours.

But I have known people that just really throw themselves in into work. And you know, it's good to show your employer that you're sober and you want to make good and you want to make amends and you want to contribute to the company, but you're not doing yourself or your family any good

if 2/3 of your day are spent in the workplace.

I worked with a man once who insisted that he needed to pull double shifts all the time and work a bunch of overtime. And he insists that he need to do this because he he had two families to to support one. One was his immediate family and, and the other was, was his,

his daughter's family. And, and I just tried to encourage them that they're, you know, is it possible there could be a better way? Because this gentleman was continually dying from untreated alcoholism. He would give the steps a try and he, and I hate to say it, but he, he had a number of years dry under his belt without drinking,

but he, he continued to engage in, in these

and these other things that just, it wasn't a good thing. And they were definitely symptoms of untreated alcoholism. And the common thread that I always saw is that he, he just, he refused to slack off on, on the overworking.

You know, we, we can, we can join Workaholics Anonymous just as quickly as we can join Alcoholics Anonymous. This whole business about addiction swapping. I mean, believe me, I, I know more, I more, I know about a swapping addictions just as much as anyone. You know,

put alcohol down and you know, what do you substitute it with? You know, sex or pornography or what have you put that down and what do you do? You eat a lot, you gain a bunch of weight.

So,

so hopefully we can get free of all those addictions through through the 12 steps.

OK, where was I? He may wish to do a lot for other Alcoholics and something of this sort may come up during business hours. A reasonable amount of latitude will be helpful. This work is necessary to maintain his sobriety.

You know, it's always great to have an employer who who understands what what you're doing and what you're trying to do And hey, and not, not all of them have that that type of latitude, but a lot of them. Do you know if, if you

if you tell them what you are and what you're trying to do, a lot of them will be understanding and

they'll let you make up the, the time another way or, or you know, even often enough, they'll say, don't worry about it. You know, if, if this is helping you keep so stay sober and you're helping other Alcoholics to achieve sobriety, then, you know, go ahead and do it. Just just don't take advantage of me or the company and

you know, I I've I've taken half days or have taken days off to to do work in a a or to 12 step other Alcoholics. And it's definitely understood

after your man has gone along without drinking for a few months,

you may be able to make use of his services with other employees who are giving you the alcoholic run around. Provided of course, they are willing to have a third party in the picture. An alcoholic who has recovered. There's that word again. Recovered Ed but holds a relatively unimportant job. Can talk to a man with a better position.