The nuts and bolts of DA at the DA Regional Fellowship Day in Minneapolis, MN

Hi, I'm Carla and I'm a debtor

and they're going to hand out a little

sheet for everybody, but I'm a debtor and I have not incurred any new unsecured debts since December of 1996. So

works if you work it.

I want to thank Judy and Siddiqui for sharing the inspirational parts of DA. Can you guys hear me? It's kind of weird up here.

It's so great to see the results of the program, right? And what what can happen when you really, truly give yourself over to Debtors Anonymous. My job today is to talk to you about the nuts and bolts of DA, which I like to think about because when we all get in here, we're nuts and we all want to bolt.

And you know, how does, you know, you hear great miracle stories in DA. The thing I believe about DA is because it's wrestling with the material world, the recovery and the visions that come true are, are truly like over the top, as we heard this morning. And but how do you get there? You know, well, how do I get there? And so I'm going to talk a little bit about that.

How,

how you know, how does this work? So like I said, I haven't debted and since 96 and but I started coming to DA in December of 1988. So you see a difference in the years there, right? And that's because I had a major slip in 93 and I incurred,

I don't know, over $50,000 worth of unsecured debt while I was in Debtors Anonymous. That is how I ended up in Minneapolis,

and I was

humbled because I got here and I had $11.00 left. And there's something about sitting next to people who are actually in this room right now and with $11.00 and thinking, how is this going to turn around? What should I do?

So that's why I'm here right now. So what should you do if you have $11.00 and you're sitting in this room,

you know, and, and I want to say like, take what you like and leave the rest. These are all my opinions about Debtors Anonymous. I've been coming here a long time. I've done a lot of

service work and so I have a lot of opinions about what works. And so we all have a compulsive disease and I am whacked when I think about money, spending it, earning it, keeping it, looking at it, everything about it. I have a compulsive like it's a rush for me. I use money like Alcoholics use alcohol or blah, blah blah, on and on and it goes. And you know, my favorite slogan, which is an unofficial slogan in Dai, believe it originated in one of the

meetings in Minneapolis, is even on a good day, my mind is trying to kill me.

No, seriously, that is the biggest gift of this program because I have a compulsive disease. And even on a good day, my mind is trying to kill me, right? It is a total gift. It is a total gift. And so here's the compulsive disease that we own. We have. There is compulsive spending, too much money going out.

It's like a river. There is under earning nothing trickling in

right? It's a river.

If either of those are happening, you're going to end up deading. You will not have enough money to meet your needs. And that's what it says. And the tools. And today, you know, people are going to talk about the steps and we've already heard about the steps. And you know, if you want to change, you have got to work the 12 steps. There's no doubt about it. So. So why am I talking to you about the tools? What's the point,

right? Well, every day you have a spiritual practice in DA

and the spiritual practice partially is how do you work the tools and how do you make sure that enough flow comes in and there's not enough flow going out so that you end up where I was fifty, well, way over 50 grand down because I had other debt on top of the 50 grand with $11.00 in cash. I mean, what happened to me at that moment was that was that shift that happens in step one where I was willing to go to any lengths.

I wasn't going to debt again, right? You have to get there. You don't work. Step one.

It's going to be hard. You're going to be like me and talk yourself into it's OK, it's OK. I like to tell the story. I talked to a woman who was brand new. This is in Baltimore and she's brand new in DA. And I said her, Do you think that student loans are unsecured debt? I'd been in DA for five years of time. Do you think that unsecured loans are secure debt? Oh no, they're secured by your education.

That's exactly what my

mind wanted to hear and so I ran with that. Did I talk about with my sponsor? No. I mean how someone could be is self deluded as I was.

It just is more evidence. Like even on a good day I have to be brutally honest. And if you want to recover in da brutal honesty, the more honest you are the more money you will have. The more honest you are, the more money you will make. And we are a disease of vagueness right? What? How much do I have? How much is this going to cost?

You know, So you know, the tools I think give us a temporary reprieve, like temporarily in this moment.

I need I need a break. I need something to do the steps are, you know, it's a spiritual program. I am not Suze Orman nor do I profess to be. That's why at the top of your sheet that I gave you, I put a little disclaimer. These definitions have not been approved by the debtors Anonymous World Service Conference, which means all the other debtors have not looked at them and seen said this is whacked. So just know that and it's not legal or financial advice

and you should know that there's a lot of legal and financial things that you will not find among your fellow debtors.

You won't find that. That's perfectly fine. Sometimes we have to go to people outside to get other kinds of help. But there are some certain things that are really helpful to know. And for me, I like to think about the tools like if I'm if I'm overwhelmed about something, I have to think of what should I do? I'm pretty practical. I think that's probably why I'm up here talking about nuts and bolts because my DA program is very practical.

So I got into Dai, felt hopeless,

depressed and desperate, right? That was my feeling. And this is what I'm going to outline to you right now. It's kind of made this up. If you have a feeling, what should you do, right? My feelings make decisions about my money, not my, I don't ever make decisions about money with any kind of financial intelligence. There are people who do that, I hear, but that is not me, right? I make my decisions about money based on my feelings. And so I came into DA as most people do, I think hopeless,

pressed and desperate. So what should you do if you are a hopeless, depressed and desperate? The first thing you should do is not debt the rest of the day. And I don't even care if you debted to get here this morning, you should really just for today try not to incur any debt. So that's why I have the sheet in front of you, because that in and of itself is confusing for the debtor mind. And how many people here have a question about

what debting is?

Is this deading or is this not debting anybody? So you can write it on a little slip of paper and we'll talk about it. So because I'm supposed to answer questions about this too. So a debt is a promise to pay in the future. I promise. OK, so who is the Debtors Anonymous cartoon figure? Maybe you remember this, maybe you won't,

Wimpy, right? I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.

Why was that funny? I never understood like, why is that funny? Why wouldn't you just pay for your hamburger on Tuesday, right. A debt's a promise to pay. That's why we're screwed up because we never think how we're going to promise keep that promise or when or what we're going to make that with. Like I never, it never occurred to me when I used a credit card. It never entered into my mind how I will pay this back when I got a graduate degree in

a field that I loved but had no earning potential whatsoever.

Never occurred to me at all how I would pay that back when I borrowed $5 from you because I didn't have any money. It never entered into my mind to keep my promise to pay you back, right? That's why in the moment, we don't debt one day at a time. It doesn't matter how much debt you have. That's the big thing about DA. It's why I'm not, you know, one of these financial planners. I couldn't care less how much debt you carry.

That is the past. That is immense. That is not today. The most important thing today is to not

make a promise that you're not going to carry through on.

Seems like it'd be easy to do that, but it's really not

so secure debt, right? The reason that secured debt is OK in DA is because if I say, I promise to, if you give me $0.50, I'll give you this bottle of water which is worth $0.50. And then if I never pay you back, you'll at least have the bottle of water and I'm clean, right? I'm even. And that's why it's OK because I have to stay in today. I have to stay with what I've got today. It's a spiritual practice.

The financial piece of it is pretty complicated for my mind, so I have to keep it pretty real. Unsecured debt is not. It's not backed up by any collateral. And if I don't pay you, if I can't pay you, I still owe you. And that's the obligation piece that screws us. It keeps us stuck in the past, right? I'm not here with you in this room because I'm stuck back

at the Amoco, like zip, putting my card in there

when I have cash in my wallet. But I don't want to use that because my debtor mind wants to hoard it. So I'm just going to use Amoco's money and then I'm going to owe them that later. You see how whacked that is? It doesn't seem whacked at the time, and that's why we have to practice our program in the moment

and we can't do things that mean that we're going to be stuck in the past. So for me, you know, it's nice to think about, like parse it out.

How do I not debt so I don't borrow any money without collateral? Many people heard my story about my sister. I borrowed $3000 from her,

never considered paying it back. I mean not that at the moment. When I made the promise I thought oh I should pay this back. I'd like to pay this back. I never thought how or when or with what or anything like that. So my mom called me and she was like your sister's wondering about that pre grand you borrowed from her. And I was really pissed. So I was like God, why does she want that money back? She's such a drag

and you know, I just remember my debtor mind at that moment, like I resent her because she wants the money that I borrowed from her. So if you feel angry, right and da, if you resentful, feel like a victim or I hate other people, which is how I often feel, you know, my anger and resentment. What do I do? What do you do with that? With your money?

You have to talk to someone,

right? That's the hard part. So I had to call somebody and say really mad that my sister wants her money back.

I'm really mad that Sallie Mae wants their money back. I'm really mad that Citibank wants their money back. I'm really mad that Target wants their money back. I mean, on and on. You have a debt list, right? I get mad about it. And then I want to do something impulsive like pay it all off. Compulsive spending.

So I I recommend that when you feel angry, the nuts and bolts piece of it is to call your sponsor, right? The nuts and bolts piece of it is to call someone even if you can't get ahold of your sponsor. That's why the telephone's a tool.

I think it's, I like to really think about that because when I'm angry, I don't want to talk it out. I want to reason it out with someone else. I want to spend some more money or do some other compulsive thing. But for me, you know, I want to go online and I want to go on eBay and find something to buy. I mean, that's just my thing. So I don't necessarily recommend that. Going to meeting also helps if you're lucky enough to be angry at the moment of a meeting. There's something about sitting down in a meeting and being really resentful

and then by the time the end of it, you're like, OK, I feel like I'm now outside of myself and my own little petty resentment. You know, if you want to truly change your anger, though, I will say that you need to work steps 8:00 and 9:00, Right? So this is difference with the tools. The tools are great because they provide a temporary

relief, right? But if you really, truly want to change the resentments and stuff, I think steps eight and nine really have been the thing that have kind of making amends to the people who I've hated or resented for lending me money has been a huge, huge healing for me. I don't have those anymore.

So let's see, we got a bunch of unsecured debt things. Any use of a credit card is debting

this. So a lot of debtors feel vague, They feel confused. I feel confused. I don't is this getting? And it was funny because Debtors Anonymous itself was vague and confused at the beginning. I love when Judy shared about what it was used to be, what it used to be like, used to be that in DA they'd say that if you used a credit card and you wrote a check and you kept all your checks and mailed them in at the end of the month, you weren't debting, right? So I did that a lot,

but we've kind of come to our senses about that. And it's funny because

the second eye, I use a credit card. Visa is like debtor, you owe me. And so we like to, you know, it's kind of wiggly. We like to be vague and confused about that kind of stuff. It's one of the feelings I have. I feel vague. And so we don't really use any credit cards except for secured ones. It's different, but credit cards,

overdraft protection,

kind of bouncing checks, all those kinds of things is kind of vague ways of getting. I personally, you know, think that our tool of record keeping, it's the clarity piece for the thing. And you might want to consider writing some stuff down.

You might want to consider, I didn't, you know, my first day meeting in 88, I came in, they said we write down all of our all the money that we get in. Like when you put a quarter in a parking meter, we write that down. And I was like, Nope, I can't do that. I got to go. Bye Bolt.

I was not willing at all to write down my money. I was willing to stay in vagueness and chaos be confused. I'm so confused why every month my bills go up. That's because you're still dating, you know, And so record keeping it that's the gift of record keeping is it gives us that clarity that that allows us to do things differently. I like visions to as a tool for

clarity because I was only willing to write down my numbers.

Yeah, to achieve my vision, right. My first vision, I wanted to go to Italy, had never gone to Italy. No one in my family had ever been out of the country. It was a big deal for me. And so record keeping was the 1st. That was my inspiration for that. And I like to say that sometimes the DA, you, we come in, we're all motivated by pain. There's no doubt, right. Sucks and

but after a while, you work this tools, you work the steps and it'll start to relief. You have pressure relief. They change the name of it. Yeah, in the 90s, because it was pressure relief.

Well, tempting at that moment to start slipping and you need something else to motivate you to get the true gifts and promises of the program. And so I like visions for that too. So I think that's helpful.

However, in the face of all this is the big feeling of all time, which is I feel afraid, I'm afraid, I'm fearful, I'm panicky, I'm anxious. I got into DA because I was consumed with fear, was consumed with anxiety. I could not figure out

how anything could possibly change. I knew was going down fast. And even when I moved back here, you know, I knew the DA worked, but I, I was like, how can this possibly work in the face of my situation? Will this work? And at that point, you know, that's when you turn to someone and say, are these steps bullshit? And I hope you have a great person who's next to you who's had enough experience to say,

no, they're not barely not.

In fact, I can stand here in front of you today and say that I've been sponsoring someone who long distance sponsorship thing and

you know, it's just a miracle. It's just a miracle to help somebody else get through their stuff. And that is why Bill W you know, I like to say that I think that the 12 step recovery movement is the most important spiritual movement of the 20th century because he figured out the one thing that I think others hadn't, or maybe they just hadn't, hadn't gotten to me, whatever. But

I it's a miracle that I will only get better if I help you.

Like, that's big. And so, you know, when I'm afraid, I need somebody else who's willing to sit there and say to me, it works if you work it. I don't even care if you come back with like the world's most trite slogan, right? Let go and let God. Carla,

you know, it's hard in the face of a bunch of bills. They come in the mail and then you come to a pressure relief group with your stack of stuff and you're like, I have already gone through this in my mind and I cannot possibly be different than what I know is going to happen. And everybody's like, let's pray first. Let's do your celebrations.

Do not have time for celebrations people. This is bad

and um,

you know, it always works. And so in the face of fear, you know, we come and they were like, we're going to sit down and we're going to do a spending plan together. And I really there's been a kind of a veer off away from this. And I would really recommend like you do a pressure relief group where you just do a spending plan together where I talk and somebody else writes it all down and somebody else is with a calculator, preferably one that works.

And

you go through that process because it's so

fearful. I'm so fearful about my numbers. And you know that slogan, God is in the numbers. You know, I was like, no, that is not my spiritual practice. I hate to tell you, God is not in the numbers. So irony for me, right? So I sit down and pressure relief group. I'm totally afraid. I'm anxious. We go through the numbers. I can't tell you how many times I have been in people's press relief groups and I should calculate, you know, I do them every Saturday

since I've moved here at least, you know, So

11 years every Saturday, you know, sitting down and watching this thing work and watching someone go from fear to serenity. It's a miracle. So,

you know, and we do steps two and three because that gives us courage. It's why we pray at the beginning. But how are you going to not incur any of this kind of debt that I like parsed all out here for you, you know, and and and you know what happens? You're in the pressure relief group and you bought a car and you're like,

my car is a depreciating asset. That value falls over. I mean, like, I can't tell. You've been in pressure relief groups where I'm like, did I just debt Like seriously, like a long time, you know, and not recently, but I was like, that's debtting. Oh my God, crashed to the floor. Now I'm totally anxious and a freak out and I don't have any confidence. Like I thought I was doing this great job and now, now I suck.

You know, and so not the case, you know, right. And so the next thing is I feel insecure. I lack confidence.

I feel shaky and stable, which I often feel. I don't actually. This is a place that I feel so much. I have less of this right now. And so the tool that I think helps us the most when we're feeling like just defeated and unconfident is service and business meetings.

Yeah, that's right. I like the people who cheer for the business meetings because sitting there and watching a bunch of debtors just try to count off

is hilarious. 1-2 pass 2334. What? What number? How many we doing? It's so great. And I'm so with you because I cannot count. And so we sit in the business meeting and somebody, you watch a newcomer raise their hand and say, well, when I first started coming to this group, nobody really talked to me and I can't find anybody to be my sponsor.

And watching the group wrestle with that and watching that person have the courage to say that

and be of service to be honest with the group, right, Watching the group kind of struggle with their spending plan. You know, I go to Prosperity, and Prosperity had to wrestle with stopping offering childcare. It took us five months of business meetings to realize that we couldn't afford it anymore. Now, if that is not a mirror and a model for me and my personal life, I don't know what is. And to have the confidence, we thought nobody would come to the meeting

more. How can you possibly? We're supposed to be carrying the message to the debtor who still suffers. This is a big deal we can't do. But sometimes you got to wrestle with hard choices. It was such a huge thing to go through with everybody together and to let it take five months and to let people like have their stuff in front of you and to really practice the traditions, you know, which are also awesome.

Unfortunately, you know, sometimes

or it can't be in a meeting or a business meeting. And I, I'm sitting at home and I'm sad and, you know,

being gloomy and sad and

just kind of low joyless is the result of debt. Thank you. It's a result of debt, right? And how, you know what flies in the face of that? And that is truly where I do think visions like I kind of alluded to earlier. I mean, it is really important at some point to stop working all this stuff just to, to get away, to get relief from your creditors. You have to have something to take care of yourself

and you can't ident to get my vision. I'll tell you,

is a total wreck. Lost, the whole vision gone. Maybe my higher power will find a way to bring it back into my life now. But the vision that I had, I did it to get in it one way, you know, And I, it's a huge spiritual practice piece for me, for me, that this stuff is all about a daily spiritual practice. Do I want my spiritual practice to be about money? Not really, but it is. I have to admit that I'm a debtor. I'm a compulsive debtor.

It's really important. So when I'm sad, I can take an action step towards my vision, even an itty bitty one. Somebody said to me, motivation follows action. Carla, take an itty bitty step. It doesn't matter what it is. And and you know, we've, I mean, I can tell you like my itty bitty sips over the last 11 years have truly added up. I mean financially,

experientially, vision wise, I mean, it's crazy.

My life now. I was talking to somebody earlier about like when you look at you find evidence of how you used to be and how you are, it's like I am last year paid in taxes more than I made the year I got into DA, which is kind of funny because you know, everyone's eyes got to hang up taxes. I'm like, I kind of feel happy to pay that much in taxes, right? I made enough to pay more in taxes and I made the year I came in DA. That's kind of freaky.

Somebody said to me one time, oh, I made a game. I wanted to see how much I could pay in taxes, so she had to earn as enough to like. It was like a kind of wacky anti debtor way, which I thought was kind of interesting.

So what if you feel ashamed and embarrassed, humiliated, disgraced? I think that is common for compulsive debtors. I have wrecked relationships. I have. The impact of my behavior with money on my relationships is really shameful. I mean, it's been shameful place for me, my family, as I kind of alluded to my partner

previous relationship. I've been in all of my employers, many of my friends,

most of my friends, all my friends before DA people in DA right now today I I harm because of my way I'm with money. I mean, it's really hard not to interact with people and money, you know, and

I just really, you know, it's hard to

kind of reckon with that. And, and I do think that sponsorship is really key with that. And I mean, being a sponsor, not having one,

many people know that. My little pic thing is that I think you should be a sponsor, not have one. I know it's kind of dramatic, but that's me, you know? I tell you, the minute I'm in shame or whatever and one of my sponsors calls me and talks about their stuff, it's really hard to sit there and beat the shit out of myself,

right? Because if I'm I gotta get busy helping the debtors. If you have 90 days of not debting and you have worked step one, you are ready to sponsor someone

there. How's that for a guideline? Take away likely of the rest. But seriously, if you have 90 days of not debting and you have written us first step out, here's how. My life is unmanageable about debtting and spending and under earning and deprivation and abundance and prosperity and earning in my career and blah blah blah. Like you write that all out, you have a good first step. Here's how it sucks to be a debtor. Move on to Step 2 right down.

Here's all the evidence of being restored to sanity. I get a paycheck,

right? I got a gift.

I don't have to drive to work today. I mean, I don't care what it is. There's a ton of stuff. Step 2, you can sponsor somebody now you have recovery. Congratulations. And I just think I, I mean, this is, I kind of hard on myself about this because I didn't get this for a long time. I thought I didn't have enough of the steps and all this stuff. And a sponsor helps you work the steps. I help somebody work the steps. I am not a financial planner. I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a career counselor.

I, there's so many things that I am ignorant about and I will be the 1st to tell you I'm not a therapist,

I'm not a family planner, counselor, whatever. It's great that you have all those things and bring them to the pressure relief group or to your sponsor and I will support you to get that help. That's my job. It's not my job to fix you or figure it all out. I just have to help you work the steps. And this is kind of a global thing, but it's really hard to get people to sponsor in DA so I'm putting a little plug in. So be a sponsor really pays off

Step 12.

And so

the kind of final, final kind of piece feeling that I think I struggle with in DA, that the nuts and bolts really helps me with is apathy, lethargy.

I'm so bored with myself and my story,

you know? I mean, it gets that way. Like I'm so bored with writing down my numbers. I'm so bored with my spending plan and, you know,

I mean, I'm not quite sure where that comes from for me. I need to get inspired, I think, you know, going to meetings. I think literature is really important. This is my plug for reading

and DA has some good literature. It has some okay literature

and I was on literature committee, so I feel like I can talk about that. But if you go like last, the last Two Ways and Means newsletters, which are free on the website, they include free kind of inspiring stuff about DA. The last two issues have had this thing about slogans because we don't really talk about the slogans in DA, which are good for me 'cause they're so corny that it gets around my brain. My like, no, I'm too cool

this brain. I love the poopy diaper room story. I totally was there and I was like, that was that smell in promises. That was awesome. And

yeah, so anyway, I think when I sit there and I get bored, of course it's self conceit, right? I'm too good for this sitting in this. I'm too good to write my numbers down.

And I think literature is great because it kind of helps us remember where we came from. And, you know, obviously we, we, we owe such a huge debt of gratitude. Oh, we don't really owe a debt of gratitude. Anyone. Sorry about that bad use of terms. So we are really grateful to a A for their

literature. I mean, read that like it says like you take every time they say alcohol in the big book and you say compulsive debtting drives it home, drives it home. So,

you know, I, I believe this little bit I wrote here about compulsive debtting on my sheet that I gave you is I, I really believe it's a spiritual disease. It manifests itself in money. Who wants that? Not me, but it's what I got. You know, I incurred debt because of emotional, psychological or other non financial reasons.

This cracks me up. And you know, I do believe that impulsive purchases and compulsive spending and deprivation and under earning and all these other things lead to compulsive debtting. That's why for me the important piece is the bottom line. Like we can't debt if we're not going to debt. We got to deal with that other stuff which will take us out of the flow.

And you know, I quoted on it a little piece in the statement on our primary purpose. Take what you like, leave the rest. I think it helps us to have some focus.

I love compulsive debtors. I love debtors. I really do. I love the debtors. And the miracle of that is now I love myself. And I hated myself when I came in here. I hated the fact that this was hard for me. I hated that I was ignorant about money. I hated that I had dug myself a hole out of which I never thought I could come. I was jealous. I should have done jealousy and envy. Those have been good feelings to deal with. I have deal with jealousy. You know what? Promise versus jealousy and envy will fade in

and I'm not jealous people anymore. That's a gift of Dai mean you can stand there and not worry about it anymore, not worry about what everybody else has or what I don't. So, you know, it's, it's a, it's a huge gift. I mean, I've been, you know, in December, I'll have been sitting in church basements with other debtors for 20 years. I know I used to sit in the when I was early in recovery and see these people who'd been around a long time and like, yes, a big oven here since, you know,

the dawn of time. And I would just think, loser, I will not be in this basement 20 years from now. So if you're 20 years old like I was when I first got in and you're thinking, God, you know, keep coming back.

Seriously, the gifts of this has been have been over the top, over the top. And I'm grateful to all of you for that so that I'll pass.

So I have some time to take questions and I ask people to, if you want, have a question about DA, you can either write it on a slip of paper and give it to me so I can read it, or you can say it out and I'll read it into the mic or whatever. So does anybody have any questions? Nuts and bolts type things? Thanks. Kay's collecting them

questions.

Hope there's one over there.

You give me one and then I'll start reading and then we can keep going.

Oh, a good one right off the top. This is a good one. Can we use a credit card to reserve a car? Boy, the hard ones right out of the chute. Yeah, pretty much. So I haven't had a credit card since

I think 2000, 2001, something like that. But the hardest thing is to is a car rental.

What I have said and you know, again, this is just my opinion, sponsor question and error sponsorship or pressure relief group question right here, Work it out. What I know people do is they take the amount of money that they think you can, you'll be paying for the car plus an additional contingency amount

and they send it in to the credit card company. If they have a credit card or a secure, you know, you can get a secured credit card, best way to do it, but whatever. So they mail the $2500 in and then they do, then they reserve the credit card, right? So the important piece is it's not what you can't do is debt. You can't at a moment incur an, a promise to pay, right? So if I put the money on the credit card and then I incur the cost,

I've never incurred any promise to pay, right? So that's how I have to get in this way of thinking like I've got to pay for something

when I get it.

OK. So that's how I've done with, that's how I've dealt with that and and worked with other people to do that

borrowing against a paycheck. Is that debting?

Yes, it is your paycheck you don't have. Your paycheck is a promise to pay you for work that you've incurred. But has there anybody ever been here who has thought they were getting a paycheck at the end of the week and didn't get one? Yeah. Anybody here ever promised to pay someone for work they did for you and not pay them? Yeah. So it seems like it's coming to you. But as someone said to me a long time ago,

group until you have the check and it's cashed in your account, you don't have you're not paid yet.

So yes,

what about writing checks? Is it debting? What about writing a check and anticipation of a checking account deposit? Such as writing a check the day before painting?

So here's a spiritual question. Right? So I'm assuming my paycheck will be deposited sometimes on Thursday 'cause we get our paycheck on a Friday? So if I write a check on Thursday morning,

assuming that money is going to be there sometime today, am I getting? Yeah, you are the moment. It's why it's like the moment promising to pay. I promise to pay you with this check. If I don't have the money in my account when I give you the check, it's a debt. Now, whether Wells Fargo knows that or not. And you squeak under the wire, right, That's not what we care about. It's our spiritual practice. And that's the piece. I think that's it's really, it's great spiritual

kind of way to be. Is a home equity line of credit debting? That's a great question. Right now it's secured by the value of your home. However, if anybody reads the news right now, all your homes have dropped in value. So now people with who are maxed out on their home equity line of credit are upside down, which means they owe more than their house is worth and now they have unsecured debt,

right. So you might say, and this is pressure relief group sponsorship time with your own particular situation, but

you know,

we're a debtor looks for any loophole. I'm like, find out like how I can get somebody else's money and you'll use it for myself instead of working with what I've got and living within my means. And you know, it's my brain. So, you know, no, if I borrow money from my house and my it's secured by my house and I can't pay that home equity line of credit off, they can take my house and I walk,

right? I mean, that's the collateral thing. It's helpful

measure for us, right, because it's about where is our clean line. But the tricky thing is things are not always this is I think we have one of those one of our signs of a compulsive debtor is like not thinking about what's going to happen tomorrow, like live for today, don't worry about tomorrow attitude.

I'm pay for it. How who cares? Let's hear this is me, Carla. I was a I'm big shot or two. I was me and credit cards was all big shotism. I never got hit anything to show a friend of my credit card today because I was always like.

Hey, we're all outlet's I'll pick up the tab. Whoo never be like for like 2 seconds of thanks Carla you're the best. You know I mean that's what I was buying. People's love. Sad but true.

How is staying in today spiritual? That's a great question. How is staying in today's spiritual?

You know,

for me it comes down to Step 2, I guess. So it pops into my mind

today I will be faced with a number of decisions no matter what I do, no matter where I go, on a small scale or on a large scale. Today I'm struggling with the compulsive, the compulsion to purchase real estate. Okay, that's where I am today. I desperately want to buy a duplex more than anything. See how it, it just goes,

You know, I don't desperately want to treat everybody in this room to lunch anymore, but I desperately want to buy a duplex.

And today, one day at a time, in the face of my disease, I have to realize that that's a spiritual problem, the spiritual decision, I guess. And if I'm, if my higher power is going to truly restore me to sanity, I have to turn my will and my life over. And what I want, my will is what I want. I want this and I want it now. And I also know that no matter what I want, it will never be enough

debtor, you know, full suspender. And so

for me, I remember when I, my process of stopping getting, I would have a credit card out and I would think, oh, those people in that meeting said I shouldn't use this struggle, like internal struggle, like in this moment, should I pay with the cash I have my wallet or should I use this credit card?

Here I am in the spiritual dilemma. This is the whole thing. This is it. There is nothing else to Debtors Anonymous but that decision in my opinion, right? I bet I, I have numerous pressure relief groups about all purchases I make that are mass, I mean, that are outside of my normal day-to-day spending plan. And it, it, it, it takes me like four or five pressure relief groups sometimes to purchase like a $400.00 item

because how do I know, you know, like staying like this person said, how is staying in today's spiritual today? I feel pretty grounded. I'm pretty confident I will not debt the rest of the day. I will not like do something,

make a mistake or you know, whatever. I feel pretty confident about that. But I have to watch it. I have to watch it. I talk about work all the time. Somebody will be saying to me, I'm running to Chipotle. You want me to get you anything? And for me, my spiritual practice is first of all, deciding if I want Chipotle or not, but second of all, and I'm not endorsing, financing or lending the DA name to Chipotle.