Sandy B. from Tampa, FL & Jerry J. from Dallas, TX answering questions at the Usual Suspects Men's Retreat in Camp Garner Creek in Dickson, TN

See how does it go? I refuse to answer this question on the ground.

There's a lot of questions right there. Oh, all right. We just take one out and let me start

often. Is this on?

Often we read critics of a A cite the poor effectiveness of our program as compared to the early years. If we concede the their point, what do you feel is the single greatest challenge hurdle that caused this and what can be done about it?

Well, I think it was

bringing in Alcoholics that were under 49.

I mean, when you're just about to die, there's a bigger odds that you'll stick around.

And we didn't have treatment centers to plant a lot of

different thinking

in people's minds so that

there are ideas. Well, there's this idea and that idea and this idea. And then I come to AAA and then my sponsors telling me this. And yes, I that's true. But I have all these other thoughts that I pre got indoctrinated with, which wasn't going on. I mean, you just arrived and

got a sponsor and we're right into God right out of the get go. So I would say those are two. And Jerry, can you think of some more that are? I think that your first point, I think the Alcoholics that they approached initially that came to a a were really, really as bottom of the barrel as you can get for the most part. And they were dead serious about it. There was no, no hope that there was any other solution.

And today we have psychiatrist who tells people that they can help their alcoholism. We have all kinds of things. But at the, in the days that Alcoholics Anonymous started, I think those, those people were pretty solid because nobody, nobody had ever had the solution for the alcoholic. They had tried asylums, they tried jails, they tried everything they could and nothing worked. And there was dead seriousness about it. It was viewed as a miracle in those days.

It happened. We we get so many people sober today

that it's still just as much a miracle

as it ever was. It's just that we have so many of them, so we get kind of contemptuous of the whole thing.

Yeah. And as Clancy said, we, you know, we also get Alcoholics not of our type,

Not a joke. It is that there are other

situations where

people get court ordered here and there's just a whole variety. So it's awful hard to tell how much less successful. I I think people like to just talk about that. I don't like to think about it. I said there's absolutely you take these steps, you will have the promises come true. End of story.

How do you when do you change sponsors? In my experience is frequently

and when they tell you to do something you don't want to do, that's

isn't this knowledge program I think it is.

I change them every 42 years whether I need to or not.

I change them when they die and I

I've had several die. But seriously, I always tell people that I sponsor that I'm easily hired and easily fired.

I think there's I think there's a great deal of advantage to staying with one sponsor. I think that that you, you get the the philosophy. If you get a good pick, you need to find someone you, you really may not like them very much, but if they look like they're working the program of Alcoholics Anonymous and you go you, that's who you ought to get. You don't want to get somebody you identify with, the guys you identify with. Drink Jim Beam on Saturday night.

So

guess somebody don't identify with but who has a kind of life that you kind of think might be possible for you. And when you change, when do you change? I I think you have to listen to your heart. You have to decide whether or not you're going in the right direction with this person or not, and whether the two of you are meshing

spiritually or otherwise.

Well, when I think back, the

the sponsor was the guy that came to your house to get you,

you didn't select, it was pre selected by whoever got that phone call to come over and get you. And when I look back on it, I think that made it a lot easier on new people because I can't imagine what it's like to pick a sponsor. This is just me. It would be like picking parents, you know, OK, I want to make sure I get good parents and and all of that. So I advance this idea. Years ago it was voted down unanimously, but I'll continue to throw it out. And that is,

we have a bowl in the middle of the Home group, Northern names of the sponsors are in there. And the new guy comes in and we go, OK, it's time for Jerry to get a sponsor

or Harry to get a sponsor. All right, come on up, Jerry.

And it kind of looks like God chose it and so, but that it's never going to work.

You're up.

Sandy and Jerry, what is your current resentment? A

boy that's.

It's no, it's like I don't keep them very long.

There's something that is if I don't get rid of it that day, there's something wrong. I mean, why keep it beyond one day?

And so when I think about this,

you know, I, I, I just wish I was further awakened, but that's not like a resentment, but it is

the biggest thing. I just believe that that I get rid of it before I go to bed.

I don't need it. I think I remember.

I don't know whether is this a note to me or is this a

the I don't I

I can't think of any.

I'm uncomfortable with some things.

I've got leukemia. I've had prostate cancer. I've got a little heart problem. I had a stroke two weeks ago.

I I dislike failing health.

I resist aging, don't want to age,

but I know absolutely it's inevitable and anytime I spend

with it. And not very long ago, I was thinking about these problems that I've had and I decided and have been true to this, that I'm not going to spend one more day

worrying about. I'm not going to let my health ruin one more day. I'm going to enjoy the damn day. And if my health takes it out, that's just the way it's going to be. But I'm not going to spend any time with it. And I think that the purpose of the the 9th step, 8th and 9th step is to get your life free of resentment.

You ought to be able to go anywhere, anytime and sit down next to anybody and be reasonably comfortable. You don't have to like them, but you don't want to be where you feel like you got to avoid them or you going to be uncomfortable sitting next to them. And when you do that, your life really gets pretty free. Thank you.

Yeah,

On resentments, if I can just add,

just by way of example, let's suppose that you're dealing with this resentment. Your wife just ran away with your best friend.

That's a pretty good resentment.

And you are furious. You're absolutely furious. You, your, your life is just absolutely turned inside out.

So the question is just hypothetically, Can you imagine five years from now being completely over it and forgiving both of them?

Can you imagine that?

If you can, why wait?

You've already decided to let them off the hook. It's just when. And the reason we don't let them off the hook early is that we've decided as punishment we will suffer for roughly 2 1/2 years, and then we'll let them off the hook

2 1/2 years. Whatever, a long sentence. Yeah, this is related.

Sandy and Jerry, could you share your thoughts about forgiveness specifically pending with four step resentments dealing with the loss of a loved one due to a homicide, a child or a parent, et cetera,

Help to be honest with you, that hasn't happened to me. So what I'm talking about is theory. I, I don't know how to to answer that. I do. I can say this.

There's two or three things that I think. I think acceptance, I think surrender, and I think forgiveness are gifts from this power. I don't know how you get a guy to surrender. I don't know how you make a person except where they are,

and I don't know how you can get anyone to forgive anyone. The only thing I know about forgiveness is that if I look at my part in the deal

and I recognize that they're just as fallible as I am, I've made mistakes. They've made mistakes After I've done my 4th step and seen what I've done to my life and the lives of others, that's a good place for me to think about forgiving someone else. And I don't know what went on with the guy that killed this person. I don't know, have any idea. Never. I've never done that. And I, I, I don't know whether they're sick. I think they must be very sick.

And you know, we got a prayer that we say for a sick person

in the fourth step.

So I can't answer that. I think you just got to look at it and recognize that this person

was not themselves or was if they were themselves, it was a very sick person and prayed. Just pray for that forgiveness is all I know.

I'll tell you this in

06

the single greatest event in the world as far as I was concerned, was the Amish forgiveness of the shootings

and that day going over to comfort the family of the killer.

I had tears in my eyes when I read about that and saw what is humanly possible in the spiritual world. So I'll just throw that up for a role model as a goal.

It's in other words, if you answer the question that eventually you're going to forgive them,

then what is? What's the deal? Why not today?

We understand what I'm saying. If you it's ridiculous to go, yeah, eventually I am going to totally forgive him and let him off the hook.

But for now, I'm going to stay

miserable and out of touch with my higher power because I think that's really the best thing I could do.

That would fall in the category of Bill uses this word a lot in the big book. Stupid.

That would be stupid.

And if you decide you're never going to forgive them,

that's a lot like being a victim.

If you're going to be a victim, you really have to decide I'm never going to have a good day. I'm always going to be ruined. I can't can't recover. I'm always going to be a cripple. And you're certainly not going to have any fun in this life. So you got some choices to make. If you want to be a victim, if you want to carry a resentment forever, you, you know, it's like holding a rattlesnake. He's yours

and.

You can hold him as tight as you want to.

I, I don't know why that reminds, but I was with, I was at a convention somewhere and there was some young women were talking. I overheard them and one of them said to the other, I've never been so mortified in my life and I just hadn't heard that sentence in a while. I think that she may have been talking about her wedding and something happened and Polly Pistol was there,

who's one of our great women speakers.

So just As for the heck of it later, I went up to her and I said, Polly, when's the last time you were humiliated?

And she went, wow,

I think it was 1978. I said nothing has happened

to you since 1978 to cause you to be humiliated, she says. I just don't do humiliation.

That's the point. It's not what happens, it's the reaction to it. That's where the freedom is. You can't control the event. You can control the reaction to it. Your turn to draw one. I think I will draw a white one where we've been playing all the yellow ones a lot. OK.

Sandy mentioned that last three years

were filled with spectacular growth and revelations. I guess it is. Any particular catalyst for this?

Oh OK.

It's hard to explain, but I think it had to do with an increased level of seeking. In other words, I just said,

I really want to see how far this can go.

And so I started doing a lot of outside reading. I started going, where are all the teachers in the world? What is possible? And it was as if I took and opened up my horizon to this. And it's just blown my mind, the new perspectives that have come in and insights and whatever you want to call it. And I just feel that these three years have been,

I just walk around amazed, you know, almost on a daily basis at how simple everything is. And I realized that the reason it's simple is that I'm not complicating it, that it always was simple

and that I was I'll talk about it tomorrow, but that I was

plan joke on myself

to complicate everything.

Anyway, that's it.

Well, that was for me. So you got a drama.

I'm not going to draw a low end.

Watch this

Jerry.

I I didn't think he's that smart.

Oh, do you ever get to the place where you just know that you can stay sober forever?

OK,

now I'm, I'm going to give you an answer.

Yes, but I have to tell you why.

And that is

because I stay sober today and it's today forever.

There's never anything other than today. There's no future. There's just my story about the future. And there's no real past. There's just my story about the past. In other words, if I'm sitting here just having a wonderful time and then somebody says, geez, have you thought about your future?

How do you think about your future? Did you ever think about that? And said, geez, I guess I will think about it. So you go back to your room and you imagine some future. Let's see, this shit could happen and that

and that could happen.

Man, I'm in deep trouble.

Where did that come from? I went back to my room, made-up a terrible story, and now I feel awful.

So. But don't go walking out of here misinterpreting that, saying, Oh yeah, you can stay sober forever. It has to be understood that it is just one day at a time, which means forever. I don't know.

You reach a point. I reached a point. I have reached a point

when I'm around people who drink.

I'm very grateful.

I am so grateful that I don't have to do that.

They just. I can't imagine in my own mind when I would get to a place where that would be attractive to me again.

I just don't want to do it. Nothing about it rings true to me.

Now. Will that be as as you've just heard? Will that last forever? I don't have any idea, but that's the way it is with me today.

Your draw is it?

Did I just give faith down?

I I feel like a witness and I'm slowly being.

I'll be sliding back to my seat in a minute.

I've heard that AA is not a religious program. What is the difference between religious and spiritual?

Well, the most obvious difference is that religions have a very clear definition of the higher power.

I mean, that is the landmark characteristic of almost all religions is that you come there and they say, do you want to hear about God and who he is and the history and the miracles and, and all of that.

But you could be in the religion and still be spiritual. So in other words, there's an element of spirituality in all religions,

but a purely spiritual program like a A lays out a group of spiritual principles which will cause a spiritual experience.

The experience itself creates the understanding of the higher power. So you end up

with with the similar activity but in a non secular fashion

or words to that effect.

All the religions that I know about

have

a an element of exclusiveness or inclusion.

You if you want to be a part of my group here is what you need to believe are assert. And once you do that, you're in. If you don't do that, you better not talk about it or you're out sort of it denies that they exclude you physically or anything. But to be to fold in you, you really need to be kind of a part. And that's

that may be a large part of the trouble in the world today,

that idea that we have the way. And I'm not talking about all churches. Some churches are very liberal in their thoughts about other other religions, but even those churches have certain tenets that they think are very important and the people that belong to their church subscribe to.

That's that's what I think. You know, I read them one time on the CS Lewis wrote a a book called the Wormwood Papers and in there the little devil reports the big devil were in a lot of trouble. Man has just found the truth

and the big devil says don't worry about it, we're going to help him organize it. And that's,

that's what I think religions have turned out to be.

That's wonderful. Which is why Bill cautioned us to never say AA is the only way to get sober, right? It's the very same thing, he said. If there's other things that work, we ought to applaud them, support them and can say wonderful. None of them have showed up yet. But

we never want to go around saying AAA is the only answer to alcoholism.

Well this is a lot like the first one you answered. Did you ever get to where you never want to drink it? When do you know when you have parentheses broken through to the other side, closed prawn and got the program and highly doubt that you will never use again? When do you get there?

It's just. It's like saying, how long is a string?

Everybody has got to measure their own strength on here. The I don't know. I don't know when I got there. I I don't even know the day I quit craving a drink. I just know that, like the book says, one day I woke up and realized that for a little while I hadn't wanted to drink. I driven by liquor stores and not thought about going in

and that came to me not, you know, what flash of lightning or anything. It just happened one day.

It just happens, the book says. We didn't think about giving up the drink. We just one day it just kind of went away. And I think this is a lot like that. When you breakthrough, you know, we're not. We're not.

We have to take action. But this is more a program of acceptance.

And acceptance is kind of a, an inertia. I mean, there's not a lot of inertia to, to acceptance. You just, you're there. You just suddenly soaks in that here I am and here the world is and I'm I'm OK, I'm where I ought to be.

I'm reminded of the section in the big book where it says we have not even sworn off. We feel as though we've been placed in a position of neutrality.

It suddenly is not even an issue,

and that is freedom.

Sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly.

Who knows when it's going to happen, but one of the things to do is to not be demanding that it happened right away or it'll never happen. So we just accept the fact that it hasn't happened yet and move on, enjoying life until it does happen.

And I think 11 important thing for me was to give up the idea that I am being deprived of something.

Yeah, that I'm giving up something. That night I had that experience where I got the thought, ain't you got it, tough cowboy? That was the night that I broke through. That was the night I felt I I ceased to feel like I'm a martyr, that I've been forced into something that I don't want to. Why me, Lord? Why me? That was the night I said thank you, Lord,

thank you for setting me free.

That's all good as answers I can give you. That's great.

Who me? You.

Oh, Sandy, tell us about Lenny. Wow, that brings tears to my eyes.

OK, at 5 minutes

Lenny was a street person in Washington DC

who came from West Virginia

and was very

disarming to know. There was just that aura of is he sane or not saying And

you know he looked around and he was very strong and

red headed Irish guy.

But he desperately wanted to stay sober so he would be at the meetings. And when I first met him, I was very put off by him because he frightened me.

And so I just would go, God, why is that guy at the meeting? He's making me nervous and he's up and down. He couldn't sit still.

He's over here, he's over there. But as I listened to him talk, he had a his higher power was a squirrel.

And he thought that squirrels were great higher power because they knew all about nuts and he was a nut. And so

kids got logic. Yeah. And so then he'd share what the squirrel told him.

And I found myself

listening to the advice that he had gotten from the squirrel

with great interest,

and so did everybody else.

I can remember when he had about four year sobriety, there was a United States senator who came to the Saturday morning meetings. And I wish I had a camera. And this a senator was Harvard graduate, Harvard Law School clerk for a Supreme Court Justice, no slouch. And I'm looking out in the parking lot and Lenny is explaining to him how you talk to the squirrels

and he is listening with great interest. It was just the

umm, it was the classic open mindedness that we find in a a but the. So one day we had a snowstorm, the snow was rapidly melting and Lenny wanted to ride back to Georgetown. So I'm driving with Lenny, and

I decided to make some conversation. Never having lived on the street myself, I say, wow, Lenny, you must be glad that this snow is melting. And he said, oh, yeah, that's OK. But I really prayed for it.

And I immediately made a snap judgment that this man is not too bright to live in the streets and pray for snow. So teasing him on, I said, Lenny, why in God's name would you pray for snow? And he said, well, when I was a little boy in West Virginia going to school and then it would snow at night and we'd wake up and there was so much snow that have to cancel school and it was the happiest day.

And he said, I think kids are probably like that today. So I just wanted to give him a present

and I sat in the car going. Now let's see who's the student and who

who's the teacher.

And the hard part of the story is that he couldn't stand if he was in the corner. And then people got to all of a sudden he felt trapped there. He'd have to push through. And he pushed through some girls at the club out of this claustrophobia feeling. And they started complaining that Lenny was causing a problem and should ban them from the club and everything. It didn't happen, but

him just hearing those words,

you know, that he had frightened them, really upset him. And then one time when he had a slip, he accidentally cut his sponsor's lip, who was trying to help him with something that very minor sponsor didn't even care. But he remembered that and he was in and out. And then he disappeared and nobody knew where he was for a year. And I got a call one time. He's in Catonsville, which was the mental institution over between Washington and Baltimore. So I went over there to see him

and the first day I, you know, they had him on all the pills and stuff and it was, but I wonder what he's doing in the nut ward

instead of the alcohol place. So later when I went back and I could visit with him alone and everything, I said, Lenny, what are you doing in the mental part? And he said, well, they sent me through the 28 days alcohol program and then they were sending me back to a halfway house in Washington.

But I thought about the fact that if I went back there, I might be in the club sometime and scare those girls again. And I never know for sure if I might accidentally hurt my sponsor. And I just can't live with that. I am never going to hurt another person in my life. So I ran my head through a plate glass window so they would think I was crazy

and keep me here so that I never hurt anybody.

Now those are strange values, but look what he was willing to do to live up to him.

I still cry when I think about Lenny, and I don't. I don't really know what happened to him after he got out of there, but he's one of my great teachers and thanks for asking about him.

Thanks. Yeah,

please comment on a healthy level of selfishness. Keep in mind

that you are talking to an alcoholic who, even though he was

selfish and self-centered to the extreme, neglected himself physically, spiritually, emotionally, and financially.

Why don't you take this one?

That's that. I don't understand the beginning of it. Well, he's saying I believe,

and I could be wrong, but I, I think what he's saying we, you know, Bill talks in the book and I think it's in the 12 steps and 12 traditions where he talks about the instincts of the human being. We have a preservation instinct. And in that preservation instinct, there must be a, an element of caring for yourself,

of not stepping off a bridge, of not picking up the rattlesnake of, you know, those kinds of things.

And to be that, to be at least that thoughtful of yourself is a, is considered by anybody that I know is normal. And to not be interested in that kind of thing is to be considered abnormal.

And I think we all have to take to look into self preservation and to to caring for ourselves. We can't be of service to other people unless we are reasonably

careful about taking care of ourselves. You just can't ignore your well-being and and be able to perform as a functioning human being. So I think we all owe ourselves that much concern. I don't know that that's even selfish. I think that's just sort of built into the system, built into us to a form of intuition that we know that we we have to eat,

we have to sleep some,

we have to

not stick our head through plate glass windows. We have to be self aware enough that we don't harm ourselves so that we can at least be useful to other people. I hope that answers to the question. That's what I was.

You're up. I just don't think it was being selfish to take care of yourself. So I that's what I agreed.

Do you suggest working the steps over and over?

Um,

well, let's put it this way.

If we use the analogy that the steps are like notes on the piano,

you probably are going to use them over and over as you play different songs.

They become part of how to live. I mean, it's just these are the principles that get played now. So you look at a situation and you intuitively play a certain step only don't consciously go #4 you know what I'm saying? But it is, it just becomes built in to

do these.

And when we're disturbed, we know we have made a mistake like hitting off key, you're playing, playing, uh oh, wrong note. And that's how we know that we made a mistake and we are off principle. And then we do whatever it takes to get back in harmony, whether it we can figure it out ourselves or we have to ask somebody else.

That's my shot. I think too, that when I first came to Alcoholics Anonymous, there were people who said, you know, you only have to do the first nine steps one time.

That's all you ever have to do them. And from then on, you're on the maintenance steps, which are 10:11 and 12:00. Well, as I read 10, it sends me back through one through 9,

so I don't know whether it makes any difference whether I'm calling it working one through 9 or whether I'm working step 10 as it's described in the book. The fact is I have to go through my life looking at whether I'm powerless over something, whether I'm

my life's unmanageable, whether I, you know, whether God can, can take care of the situation I'm in. I have to inventory and look for self centeredness if I'm going to stay on the track. So I, I don't know that there's a lot of difference in, in that view and the view that, you know, I keep working the steps. I keep applying the principles of Alcoholics Anonymous in my life as best I can on a daily basis. That's what causes me to grow and process life and in such a way that I I hopefully

and grow as a human being and as a spiritual being. So that's what I what I think about.

Was that mine?

Now I read that. No, you didn't. Did you read that? Yeah, I read. Did I read that? Yeah. OK, I read that. Come on guys,

he's doing such a good job. I like to listen.

Do you think? Yeah, sometimes

we should go back to the old time way of not allowing newcomers to participate in a discussion meeting.

Well, I've never been in a group where newcomers were not allowed to participate in a discussion meeting. Our problem has always been to get newcomers to participate in a discussion meeting, to find out where the hell they are, what they're afraid of, what's going to happen.

I don't think for a minute that the newcomer has much to offer

except his concern for working the program, raising a question that he may have about what he's going to do in his life and that sort of thing. He's not going to not going to, you know, save any souls particularly. But I, I like to have them. I like to have them in the meeting and I like to have them doing things. So I guess I would answer the question. I wouldn't go back to saying you can't talk in a meeting.

I don't know if that came from my

sharing my beginning when they were mostly speaker meetings and my sponsor wanted me to learn how to listen, which was one of the advantages. Excuse me

of mainly going to speaker meetings and then after a certain amount of time had passed when we would ride back in the car and then I'd ask all the questions about what I heard at the speaker meeting and get these answers so that I now had a certain amount of certain base

to participate in discussing something at a discussion meetings because we didn't have

as anybody got a problem that that was never a topic at the discussion meetings that I went to you follow what I'm saying, which that's entirely different. That's really in now. Who had something happen to you at work today? And then it just goes. It was always tonight's topic is

the promises. Would you please share your experience on The promises?

I don't know if I'd go back to the old thing. I mean, I'm happy where everything is.

Even when the meeting gets all screwed up, I just go, hey, that's pretty cool.

So I wouldn't go back to anything.

Go ahead. Keep on going. Yeah. Now you read that one. I did OK.

Anonymity question. What is your opinion on using your last names in an AAA meeting?

That is not a break of anonymity if that's what the question is. Does that break anonymity to use your last name at an A A meeting?

I do it all the time,

but I won't use your last name.

I will be very careful to not break your anonymity. And of course, this is that if the only place that the program suggests some guidance is that the level of press, radio and films. And so

if I go to a high school and they want, you know, if somebody come over there and talk to the high school students about a A and it's just me and the students, I'm telling them who I am and I'm in a A and this is what happened. And so on down because I'm still not up at the level of press, radio and films.

Or I could just say I'm Sandy because I just like doing it that way.

But I myself,

if I know you, you know, I'm in a A in about the 1st 20 minutes

because I have found that when I work it into the conversation, it has never hurt me anywhere.

I'm talking about all the jobs I've had, people come from anywhere, you know, and somebody I've never met before high up in the company and I said, Oh, I got to go. I said, where are you going? I said, I got to go to an, a, a meeting. I mean, you know, it's just, oh, all right. It's just, that's just the way I am. And because of that, I know I've gotten numerous 12 step calls

where it's complete strangers. Well, could you help my sister?

You follow what I'm saying. And if he didn't know that I was recovered, recovering and recovered, whatever you like, alcoholic, he wouldn't have been able to ask for my help. So those are some of the thoughts. Anonymity.

Anonymous.

Sort of like, No, I try to.

You heard my talk about my anonymity. I don't have any and they haven't had any for a long time.

I and I'm much like Sandy as far as

not worrying about mine. I did worry about mine in one respect, and Scott invited me to deviate a little tonight if I needed to.

I was a trial lawyer and I always wondered what would happen if I got a member of Alcoholics Anonymous on the jury panel

and they, when they asked, do you know Mr. Jones and what in what connection do you know Mr. Jones? And then they would tell them when I saw him at an, a, a meeting. And I wondered what reaction that, that would have for my, you know, my client probably knew it because I didn't hide it from them, but the rest of the jurors didn't. And I, you know, I just, I wondered what the hell would happen. And one day I had a case with a Doctor Who was supposed to have

injured a man in his surgery. And and the man test said that he couldn't look up,

he couldn't raise his head up. And we picked a jury and nothing was said about me being an A, A or no one said they knew me.

And we went to lunch and came back after lunch and the plaintiff, the man who couldn't raise his head, came over and sat down at the council table. And I was working on my cross examination of that guy. And one of the jurors, large red headed woman, walked in and plopped down in the jury. She wasn't supposed to be in the jury

room. She's supposed to go to the jury room. She was in the jury box. But I wasn't going to go over and tell her because I had the plaintiff sitting right here and I wasn't going to be accused of, you know, messing with a juror. So I just kept doing my work and I don't know why I looked up, but I looked up to see her and she went

and I looked over at the plaintiff and he went

and he looked back down and she went

and he jumped up and ran out of the courtroom

and she came, he came, his lawyer came back in just a few minutes and said I need to talk to you. We want to try to settle with you.

And we did in a very advantageous level for my client.

We settled and we got the paperwork done and I walked out in the courtroom and they're set. The lady and she said you're not much of a lawyer, are you? I said no, I'm really not.

And she said I won your lawsuit for you. And I said you sure didn't hurt it anyhow, tell you that for sure I saw what you did. And she said I just can't imagine why you didn't, why you're not more observant than you are. And I said, what did I miss?

Said you were standing, walking, riding down in front of the jury there. And I had my bag open just like that. Said I thought I'd seen you at a meeting somewhere. And I had my 24 hour book laying right out there where everybody could see it. And you never even noticed my damn 24 hour book, did you?

I said. No, ma'am, I didn't. I sure didn't. So she handled it very well, I thought. And I've never been harmed by being a sober member of Alcoholics Anonymous in any way,

form or fashion. If I've missed any opportunity in my life by being a sober member of Alcoholics Anonymous, I just don't know about it and I don't care because I've had a really good life with lots of, lots of good opportunities, lots of nice things happening.

Yeah, Good, good.

I got one more anonymity,

Jay reminded me. There are some good stories about anonymity and

I just talked about it so freely. And I was lobbying in Washington for credit use. I'd be on the banking committees. It was mostly where I was. And a couple of the staff directors of the subcommittees on the Senate side were pretty good friends after over the years. So one day things got a lunch and we're walking down the street and AUS senator who's in a A is on the other side of the street and he yells and the

only get a big hug and everything and then he goes on his way.

So the guy with me goes, you know, like

I said, I can't say for real. And he says, I got it, I got it. So then we walk a little further and it's a big black doorman in front of the Willard Hotel. And he yells out, dandy, me, get over here. He ran across the street and hugging me and all that. And this guy looked at me and he said, you guys are everywhere.