The Into Action Convention "Our Primary Purpose" in Stockholm, Sweden

Y'all about ready.

My name is Chris Framer. Grateful recovered alcoholic

and we're going to try to answer some of your questions and try to get as specific as we can. The other might kind of cracked out. So what we're going to do is we're going to let you ask the question and then we'll repeat the question here. So it can end up so it can add some continuity to what we're what we're saying answering the question. And we'll try to get a specific if we don't get you a clear answer, you can let us know. We'll try to be a little clearer. Hopefully we'll be able to do that

what we had asked you to do and we've got it like an hour to do this. And I know a lot of you guys have got some questions. What we want to do is try to get to the question as quick as possible for y'all. You'll follow. It's it's easy to kind of get in and you want to give us a life story of why you're asking the question and then eventually ask the question. We'll be here until midnight, if that, if that goes on like that. So let's try to, we'll try to be quick with you and you try to be quick with us. I guess this is what we're saying. Somebody written this question down

and I'll I'll I'll ask an answer. I don't recovered alcoholic who's living in the program.

Recently got into relationship with a man who's normal in all ways. She's lying already here.

Just kidding, just kidding. Do you think? Do you think he should do the 12 steps and in al Anon and join the path and avoid becoming codependent?

Yes,

the the 12 steps are spiritual program of action. I don't care what 12 step program you're in. Basically this is we stole the the 12 steps in in the original version from the Christians. It's it was 1st century Christianity. It's a spiritual path to get you connected spiritually.

So if anybody wants to get on a spiritual path, what we see is a lot of relationships when they get together, 1 gets on a spiritual path and their life changes and the other sits back and they're just tickled to death at the person sober, but they don't grow spiritually. So what happens is they they have a tendency to leave the same path and it gets a little a little goofy. So I think anybody can benefit from doing these steps.

Absolutely, I would do that.

Next question.

Not all at once. We have to go very

specifically, especially around sponsorship, about working with others. I want to mention something because somebody asked me a great question at lunch and won't have an opportunity

on

on page 98.

Now that's not it.

Page 129

there's a specific definitions of chapter working with in the family after it says in the in the bottom paragraph says even if he displays a certain amount of neglect and irresponsibly towards the family. It is well to let him go as far as he likes and helping other Alcoholics during those first days of convalescence. This will do more to ensure his sobriety than anything else. And I think we're some of y'all are getting really confused with this is you're hearing, hearing us say work with others and you're equating that with sponsorship

and sponsorship and working with others can be the same thing, but it doesn't have to always be the same thing. Working with others is anything that will help a drunk get connected. You'll you'll with us. These guys are making coffee over here in this cats that set this up or working with others guys, the greeters that are taking the money and they're working with it. They're helping in any way they can. Sponsorship is somebody who has been through the 12 steps reaching around and grabbing the other little guy and helping him up. You can't show me how to do a four step unless you've done a four step.

Makes sense. So if it's taking you six months to finish the steps, at the end of six months you can turn around and actually start sponsoring somebody. But if you wait six months to start working with somebody, you may not make this deal. You follow. You got to get out of your head in those first days of convalescence. You got to help others make sense. You come to a meeting. At the end of the meeting, everybody gets up and goes out and smokes and one little guy's back over here putting the chairs up. Why don't you get your butt up? Go help him put the chairs up. It'll

do you a lot more than the fellowship out here just talking BS for the guys. It's working with others. Cool what you got.

Silver for a while and he's starting to feel like your sponsors not

taking you any further on your your journey. Or maybe you're just resting on your laurels. How do you know if it's time to reinvest or get any sponsor? And then how do you make a clean break if you do need to get a new sponsor?

What a great question.

You know he's from Texas, that's why.

Can you repeat the question?

Yeah. How do you know when you're in a sponte sponsor relationship and things are getting kind of flat? How do you know what the problem is? And the second part of the question was basically, what do you do about it? Makes sense. How many of us have ever been in a deal like that? I think to answer the question, and it's purest, my spiritual growth is my responsibility. It's not

my sponsor's job is to get me through the 12 steps and then hold me accountable, but I'm going to grow spiritually.

And if I start to stagnate, then I can go to my sponsor, I can go to other people in the group and try to get some advice and gets a, there's nothing wrong with asking other people in this fellowship for guidance. In other words, we have this idea, especially in Texas, if I'm sponsoring you, you're my property and, and I don't want you talking to him. And this is a, this is absurd. You know this, that's why I love Alcoholics Anonymous. That's why I love these 12 step fellowships because I grow so greatly from from connection with the women,

the young people in the men. And I mean, this idea that I can only listen to my sponsor for spiritual guidance is, is ridiculous and really, really dangerous as far as I'm concerned, because it places the sponsor at the at the at the tip of a pinnacle. And when that sponsor shows his butt,

that translates, gets drunk, you follow, then you're then you're at a loss. The book is quite clear. I'm supposed to place dependence on God, not the sponsor. I got one sponsor. That's my go to guy. But I'm going to talk to anybody I can get my hands on. And if it if it looks like that spiritually, I'm just not being pulled along, it's perfectly OK to get another sponsor. We got to get our egos out of the way. If if I'm sponsoring you and you come to me and say, Chris, this is not working out, I don't want you to work with me anymore. And I get pissed. You know you

right Decision

ate it. The truth ain't it the truth I

there's also this little deal real quick about this deal about not everybody does throw at the same the same rate spiritually and you may find yourself in a situation where you where you are are wanting. You ever notice in the fellowship how you have some people that seem to be seekers. They're always looking for another level in this deal. They're always looking to grow into. These are the guys that are reading all the time. These are the guys that are in the trenches doing this stuff.

And if you've got you a guy that that has sponsored you, that is content to be right where he is and he doesn't want to grow anymore,

there's nothing wrong with that. But you're perfectly OK to say, you know, I want to thank you for all you've done. I want to thank you because you were there when I needed you to be there. And I want to go on down the road. I want to see what I can see and there's nothing. There is nothing wrong with that. Anybody else have a question on that? Yes, ma'am. Mia,

I was wondering and I Christy mentioned earlier that when you work

writes a list of their character defects.

Yes,

I I hold it. Yes, I'm so sorry. Y'all keep reminding me. I'm so sorry

triggered me.

What do I do with the character defects defect list that I'm getting in a in a in the process of a fifth step. Basically, it's a quick, pretty quick process. I as I'm writing these things down, we get the same ones all the time that come up guys. It's not like you're going to come up with something original with each individual person. It's the same crap. You know, it's called, it's called it's called the human condition. And I don't care what nationality you are, we're we're we're selfish to the core. Anytime I'm judging people. Have you ever noticed in a fist, if it's all about judging people, what she did this and he did this and he did,

if that's judging and if I'm judging somebody, I'm being selfish because I'm thinking I know what they should be doing. You follow. Oh, oh, I see the little connection. So you know, I'm, I'm dishonest to the court. 9 times out of 10, I'm selfish and, and the fear plays a big part

and I just look at and there's, there's a multitude of other things in here. I'm greedy, I'm jealous, I'm judgmental. You hear this again, all of this stuff, Melissa's in there and then I give it to the guy and it's up to him what he does with he takes it to God, man, God. In the seventh step, we ask God to remove from us every single defective character. Some of you that have tried to visit with me this weekend, you'll notice that I'm a little on the shy side and people accuse me of being arrogant. You know, it's just, I tried to talk to him and he just, he didn't say anything. It's like he's just a, he's arrogant. He's, you know, I am so

painfully shy and I don't know, done therapy, read it. They used to I or I don't know what it is, but I'm just that's I come, I wake up here, you know, I'm in your face and I go back to sleep and it's like this. But this shyness is a character defect that I've asked God to to help me with and and I am better than I used to be. I asked God in six and seven to help me with my cussing so much from the podium. So y'all can look down some old CD's. I did and it was the F word every other word. I mean, it's just like, and some people really like that. They, I mean, I know people they got sober because of that

and they worship Satan. But other than that, I mean, but, but, but it stopped me from getting close to some of y'all. And so I mean, I from the podium, I don't do it near as much as I used to. And I believe that's God removing some of these character defects. Cool, That answers your question.

You basically give the list to, yeah, because he's going to go for an hour, get quiet with God, and he's going to offer those things to God to remove. This is what he's going to have to work on. And I've read it, I wrote most of it, so I'm going to be paying attention. And if I see the guy getting off the same, I'm going to bring reeling back in a little bit. But really, that's God stuff, folks. We're not working on our 6th and 7th step where God's working on that, I think.

Who's got the next question? What you got, brother? OK, I'll next, next one.

OK. I just want to see a lot of people who who ordered it down the steps and living in the 10:11 and 12:00 and then they want to do a four and a fifth step again. What do you think about that? I think it's a great idea.

His, his this, the question was

people that have worked the 12 steps, they're living in 1011 and 12 and then they want to go back and do a fourth and 5th step. There's two avenues of thought along those lines. A lot of folks, you know, we do 1/4 and 5th step and we live in 1011 and 12. My experience with my own self is that there's some stuff that just gets keeps getting dusted under the carpet. You know, I keep setting it aside. I'll look at this later. I'll look at this later. I'll look at this later in 1011 and 12. Don't take care of it. And so

I want a new experience with God. My sponsor Mark Houston asked me all the time. So how free do you want to be Every time I do another four step in a fifth step and I sit down usually with somebody new. I've done a fifth step with you now I'm going to do a fist step with you now. But he's only been sober a couple of months. So what it's about you letting another man know who I am. It's called transparency. Y'all understand this? The more the secrets I have is what gets me in trouble. And so I need to be as transparent. I need to let you know that I am, I am a flawed

21 years sober, but I am still struggling like everybody else in this room. There ain't no gurus in here. And so that's what I do. I do. I come from a sponsorship lineage that talks about doing multiple fist steps. If any of you guys, there's an article out there that Paul Martin wrote back in the 70s called Don't Sell the Newcomers Short. You can download it off the Grapevine website called Don't Let, Don't Sell the Newcomer Short and it talks about doing multiple fist steps. It's pretty cool thing.

Pretty cool thing. Did you get that that answer your question

4th step in the first two weeks and the question was can you do a four step in the first two weeks? I did.

Some people can't. It depends on the detox problem. You'll realize that some of y'all that went to treatment perhaps heard the expression a drug is a drug is a drug which is rubbish is rubbish. It it the solution's the same. But a drug is a drug is a drug is ridiculous. You can detox off alcohols usually within a few days. Detoxing off some of the pills that some of y'all are taking takes months before your head starts to clear cocaine. One of the reasons

states they won't even admit you to the hospital if you're addicted to cocaine. Like emergency room. They won't even because by the time they finished doing the admit papers, you're already ready to go. You said you got your little food in you. You took a little 3 hour nap. What?

And so

these little cocaine addicts, we get them, we get them in the work really, really quick. Otherwise they're going to squirt out the side, you know, and some of the cats, we have to slow down a little bit and wait a little bit until their head starts to clear before they can do it. Remember, our description of the four step was not this big psychological evaluation. It's a simple inventory

and so it's it's not a problem to do it. The quicker the better. I need some relief and I need some relief quick. You'll follow. You're probably one of the biggest mistakes I think we make in Alcoholics Anonymous. We just go too damn slow working the steps.

Yeah, next question. You guys over here are going to have to stand up, make noise. I won't see you.

It's a blind joke.

It's a half blind joke.

I'm sorry to put you on the spot on this one, but why do you introduce yourself as an alcoholic and a drug addict at the EA commercial? The the probably shouldn't If if if I'd understood this was strictly an AA. I know we have people. I'm sorry, the

he's questioning why I broke traditions and introduced myself as an alcoholic and addict is I have so many people from Cocaine Anonymous that I know in this room and so many people from drug addicts Anonymous and, and we're, we were and that's just for inclusion here. But if I'm at an AA meeting, I would never do that. If I'm in an AA meeting, I introduce myself as Chris Kramer. I'm a recovered alcoholic. If I'm a Cocaine Anonymous meeting or, or any other meeting, my name is Chris Ramer. I'm a recovered drug addict. It's just for singleness of purpose and identification.

But I'm not going to ever. It's the problem that we got in, especially in the 80s with this and of stuff. Again, it's treatment centers doing this. I'm addicted to everything. Oh my gosh, that's so much BS. That's just so not true. There's no nobody on the face of the earth that's addicted to everything. But it's just so it just sounds funny from the podium, you know, and it's just, it's just not, you know, it's one fatal illness is enough for me. Thank you very much. If you happen to have two, go ahead and go

the three that's I don't know you'll follow used to go into treatment in the in the in the United States. I don't know because here you know it's it's they they take care of it. There. You got to write a big old fat check treatment in the 80s was was quite simple. You could spend forty, $50,000 for one treatment experience

cash, you'll follow. If you saw a psychiatrist, you'd end up paying upwards to $120,000 for a treatment experience and you'd walk in buddy and they'd watch you like a hawk because the insurance companies are paying, they're paying attention. I see that you're sitting with her again. You were with her this morning. Obviously we have some sexual addiction going on here and we write that down. And I saw you at lunch. You were eating a little perhaps an eating disorders. And every one of those will get you another 30 days in treatment. You'll, you'll follow what we're saying. The truth of the matter is I've got a fatal illness,

alcoholism and drug addiction. I've also got some character defects that are kicking my butt, and those are the things that I've got to look at. Cool. That's a great question. Great question. I'm doing fine.

I'm dying up here. Who else?

That you're an alcoholic and every meeting

great question why is it important to repeat every time that you're an alcoholic? Great question. They didn't used to do it and it drives people crazy in the States. A lot of

in some groups they don't. And if I had my way, we wouldn't. Doctor Bob wrote about it a lot. And this idea, I mean, let's let's face it, folks, take people take shots at us all the time. We become punch lines of jokes, you know? Hi, I'm Chris. I'm an alcoholic. Hi Chris,

You know, it's like when did we start this? Why did we start this? What's the point? I think from the podium, it's OK to introduce yourself that way. I think we need to identify for inclusion. But after that it gets a little tedious. Historically it gets a little tedious as a lot of people have have a problem. It's like the chanting it's it's like stuff that's kind of caught 90 meetings in 90 days. Where did that crap come from 'cause that's what it is. You'll follow. Where did it come from? It's not based in the in the traditions. It's not based I

if you happen to have a very slow life and you can go to a meeting every day, rock on. But some people you know, they've got kids, they've got jobs, they've got do some other things. And I've watched people go to 120 meetings and in 90 days and relapse. Meetings don't treat alcoholism.

Yeah. What is from your point of view, the biggest benefit?

Waiting from my point of view is the is the biggest advantage of treatment centers.

Great question, good stellar question. From my point of view, detox detox one of the problems in our world today. How many of you guys are have just done one drug or one out one substance only Raise your hand.

There's such a small minority, about 5% of you, maybe 10% of you. The rest of us have done lots of stuff. You know they say in treatment. What's your drug of choice of yours?

What do you? What do you got? Well, these are horse tranquilizers.

Why would you eat a horse tranquilizer? I don't know. And after a few more conversations, I'm eating one. You know, it doesn't matter if I think it changes the way I feel, I'm going to eat that. But one of the big problems that we see in the United States is that we get people in. Remember we were talking about earlier, alcoholism is twofold. There's a mental piece and A and a physical piece. But unless I get you past the physical, I can't get you clearer on the mental. I got to get the physical craving taken care of. And today with the medications that lots of us are taking, those medications are so.

To get off of and there's just just the nastiest pain medications, benzodiazepines and opiates, these a lot of antidepressants with the side effects and we're trying to get off that stuff so we can get a baseline. If we don't do a proper job detoxing where we we sabotage what's going to take place after that.

Follow my hearts in the right place and I really want to stay sober. But once you've been physically triggered, you're off to the stupid races and the best,

the best, most genuine heart out there won't be able to stay sober. So we got to Bill Wilson. Doctor Bob wrote extensively they let's get detox first and then we can look at this other stuff with a, with a clear head. And I think that's the main deal. Some good information. A head full of knowledge can help, but a head full of knowledge won't. That's what treatment centers end up costing us a lot of problems because because we begin to think that the treatment center was going to fix us.

You come in the United States and spend that money and all this thing, you think, well, I've done my 30 days,

everything's OK. And it is if you finish the work. But again, treating centers, they have a tendency to take away the urgency to finish the work. So, so you go home and you spin your wheels and within two weeks you're drunk. I have one of the best treatment centers, I believe, in the country. And I can tell you half the community that's there now will be drunk in 90 days. I'm not speaking out of school. I've said it from 1000 podiums, treatment is not the answer.

The solution.

The solution is the is the book, is the literature. If you happen to go to a treatment center that teaches that, you're golden. If you happen to go to a treatment center that teaches you triggers lists, you're in trouble.

You're in trouble. That answered the question good. Who else

this three or four disease? Is it the three fold or A2 fold disease? You tell Mickey Bush I hate his guts.

He's the one that starts that

the literature in the first part clears it up pretty clearly. It talks about A2 fold disease, the physical and the mental won't argue that later it goes in and it expands it with a third part and that's when you got the circle triangle and you've got all three parts to treated all three-part disease. And it talks extensively about if I don't treat the spiritual peace, I'm not going to get well. It says on page 64 when the spiritual malady is overcome, I straighten out physically and mentally. I believe it's a three fold disease. I believe it's a three-part, but

just read the first part, the main parts, the physical and the mental, that's that's the one that people have a struggle understanding. It's great question. What you got the troublemaker in the back? Yes,

there you go.

First year. Like dating, changing jobs, buying a house.

The question was what do we, how do we, how we dealing with all of the things that you're not supposed to do in the first year? This is, this is a perfect, a perfect question. And it and it, this is the stuff that we were talking about the other day about it was just yesterday. It seemed like days ago. It was just where we're talking about taking everything we think we know about Alcoholics Anonymous and just sort of setting it down for a moment and re examining this stuff before we pick it back up again.

90 meetings in 90 days is a perfect example of this. It's written nowhere. It does not spring from our literature. And yes, yet everyone of you, everyone of it, including me, said it forever. Meeting makers make it. It's not in our literature. Do you know that there's nowhere in the big book that it says that going to a meeting is a solution to your problem?

If it was important, Bill Wilson would have said, hey, step 13, go to meetings. But he did. I know now real slow and I want to make sure everybody understands this. Do not call your sponsor and tell him that I said don't go to meetings. I I didn't say that. Okay, I can already see your head working. Some of you already grab your cell phone and was heading for it like that. Don't do that.

What what we're trying to clarify is, is that we were talking about this at lunch. Let me ask you this question.

How many meetings do you have to go to to have a spiritual experience?

Zero. None. There's nowhere that said that you had to go to the meeting to have a spiritual experience. You have to work 12 simple steps, hopefully with somebody who is having spiritual awakening. And there it is. That's the deal. This said, this, this, this thing that we have in our fellowship, it's not. It doesn't seem as bad here as it does in some places, but in some places of this country, the meeting is

everything.

And the steps are, if you get around to it, it's always, it's a crazy deal. And so that's the reason why we see so many people. I mean, at 7 years sober when I'm unraveling and I'm simply as unhappy as a man can be, I am, I am ugly, unhappy.

And the only solution that they could give me when I shared that information was Myers. You know, you probably just need to go to some more meetings. I'm going to six meetings a week. At the time that I said this, six meetings a week. But this is not enough. Nobody, nobody said, hey, why don't you

try working the steps? There's a novel idea and the moment I did, all that stuff went away. But it's the same thing with the relationship deal. I find this, I find this hugely entertaining

the the common party line BS and AA is don't make any big decisions for a year. Now listen, I know where that comes from. It comes from a lot of well meaning people who love me to death. It doesn't sound like a bad piece of information,

but let's put this into perspective.

Yeah, Like your life is shit in a third. Yeah,

in This is why he is the evil twin.

No, let's let's put it in perspective.

In a third step prayer, I just asked you to turn your will in your life over to the care of a God that you don't even understand yet.

And you said, uh-huh. Now I've asked you, I've asked you to do something that is so remarkable.

I've asked you to give up yourself will and turn it over to something you don't even understand yet. Now tell me that's not a major decision. It's going to be the most major decision that you ever made in your whole life. And I'm going to ask you to do it in the first week that you're sober. You see, so to so to say to sleep with a brush that's that broad. We don't make any major decisions. Who am I to say?

Who am I to say that six months in your sobriety, God's not going to bring me into your life? And it's the woman of your dreams. She's standing right there. She's perfect.

Who am I to say that God wasn't going to bring her into your life? Knew in sobriety? I don't know. I don't know.

So we have to be real careful. I understand guidance and I understand accountability. I understand that we need to be there to help people make make decisions because we have a history of making bad decisions and poor decisions based on our past. I understand all of that, but don't paint that with too broad a brush, okay? Not too broad because we don't know. We don't know. Anybody else have a question? Chris is right here. He'll answer them all,

yes.

Could you explain why an alcoholic should not sponsor an addict?

I love that question. I just

the question was, why is it that an alcoholic should only sponsor an alcoholic and not an addict?

And historically, this has been such a hot topic in our fellowship for so long. And it all boils back down to one basic thing. Chris will probably have a take on this too. It's about identity. It's about it's about identity. It's like

I I am an alcoholic. I'm just a busted up drunk. I am not an addict. I did toe sacks full of drugs. I'm familiar with drugs, but I am not at an addict. And so I used to sponsor addicts.

It was funny. They didn't stay sober. They didn't stay clean. They were just kind of dropping like flies. And one day somebody brought it to my attention and they said, Myers, are you Cliff Bishop was the guy that did it. He said, Myers, are are you an addict? No, Sir.

Well, how many addicts do you sponsor? Well, I don't, I don't. Hell, I don't know clip, I don't know. He said well count, I'll wait just like that. And I saw I put him on hold and I went six and he said terrific how they doing. And I said not too good.

And there was just dead silence on the other end of the line.

And it was the first time that had ever really been brought to my attention. And So what we ended up doing was we, I ended up getting rid of those guys and I flipped them over to guys that were addicts that could effectively sponsor them. Now I got, I want to tell you real quick of those men that I that I gave to somebody else, I got, I just told them, I can't sponsor you anymore. I owe you an amends. I've tread too far into this and I'm afraid that I'm going to harm you rather than help you. And all six of them were madder than hell.

They were all irritated like you can't imagine,

and yet I stuck by my guns and they went and got hooked up. All of those men except one called me back over the next five or six months and told them. Told me that they were deliriously happy and that for the very first time in their whole lives they were connected with somebody that truly understood the nature of drug addiction and that they knew that they couldn't BS these men.

My problem is, is that because I don't understand addiction like that, I don't understand drug addiction. I have an intellectual knowledge of it, but I don't have that kind of knowledge that I have with a drunk. When you tell me something that's goofy as a drunk,

I can look at you and go, come on, you knucklehead. You know I understand that and they know I understand that, you see. But these addicts were blowing smoke up my rear. And as soon as they I didn't respond, as soon as I didn't react to what they said, they knew they had me. They knew that they had the wool pulled over my eyes and they could deceive me anytime they wanted to, and they did with frightening regularity. You see one more thing on that topic like that. It's a great question like this for you men and women who have been out there

and have been involved with both drug addiction and alcoholism. If you look at the 5th step of an alcoholic and you look at the 5th step of a drug addict, do they look the same? They do not. They do not. Let me tell you something, guys, there are places that drugs will take you. Drunks get sloppy. We wreck cars, we wreck relationships, we do stupid things like that.

The fifth steps of addicts are painful, horribly painful to look at sometimes.

In the whole time that I've sponsored men and women in this deal, I mean sponsored men in in, in a I've never one time met a man that sold his wife for booze. I've not met it, and I've listened to hundreds and hundreds of fish steps. And yet with a drug addict,

it happens with frightening regularity. The death, the depth of guilt and remorse around drug addiction is sometimes so intense that an alcoholic may not understand it, they may not grip it, but an addict will. And that identity is key to whether or not you make it or not. It's a great question. Yes, Sir,

of the mark. Use of definition, League of money made. I missed it, I'm sorry.

I'll bet you, Chris, could

I say it again? I'm so

absolute

I won't explain it that way, but I'll explain it the right way.

Basically the ego if you any of you guys get a chance. Harry Teabout was around the early 30s, twenties, 30s, forties, wrote extensively and he was one of the

I'm going there. What is the ego?

What is the ego?

That is the question basically that's it in a nutshell well Harry T Bouts, the one that did the the landmark work around it this this thing called the ego, this idea that I I am everything when this thing starts to rebuild itself, you can't defeat the ego is the problem Everybody on earth has got the ego and it looks different for different people. Some of you little guys, you're all full of yourself. You think you're hot. You know you're full. You know how you see them coming to a meeting? You think, well, that little guy, he's

pretty arrogant, he's egocentric, You'll follow. He's full of himself. And then sitting out the other end of the table, there's a nice little lady down there and she won't look up from the table. All she wants to do is look at the floor. She's got the victim, the trump card ready to throw down. If you get close to her, she'll tell you how miserable her life is and how bad she's been abused. You'll follow. It's the same thing. It's the ego that's getting the chance to get rebuilt.

At that particular point in time, what happens is we stop being who we're really supposed to be

and we get we get top heavy with one of the other things. That's what what Mark Houston talks about what Harry T about. Any of you guys ever read the Little Hazleton publication called King baby and y'all ever you can get it. You can download it. But king baby they got queen baby because some people complained it wasn't equal opportunity. I don't know,

it's like people complain that the book is not gender perfect. It's like, come on, get over it. That's your ego talking right there. Truly. It's that. It's that same publication that was written from those Harry Teabout articles. The resurgence of the ego tells me

tells me three years into sobriety that I don't need to sponsor people anymore, tells me that I don't need to go back to meetings anymore. It's the it's the thing that tells me that I don't need to help them set the meeting up. Let them young guys do that. I'm going to sit back here on my butt. You follow. That's why we we've lost a lot of elder statesman in the fellowship because the ego gets to be too big. If I go to the hospital right now, we'll probably have

20. Probably at least twenty of those folks had five years or more and lost it.

Why they lose it

because their ego got rebuilt again. What took place is something in their head. Five years sober, 17 years over 21 years sober, said I don't need to do the same things they needed to do when they first got here and they got sick again. You follow. We're losing them off the top end is one of the big problems that we're seeing. It's the resurgence of the ego is what kills us. If I can stay right size and stay teachable, When you do a four step and you look at that third column, that's where you'll see it. Who in the hell

who is? Who's pissed

in that inventory? We all, we all have this image of who we think we are. And the truth is, most people don't even have a clue who we are. We don't even know who we are. Makes sense. Once we work the 12 steps, we get to see exactly who we are. It's a great question. We got to keep our ego right? Size what?

When do you use theater rely in inventory?

Most people don't. When do you use theater of the lion inventory? I think the aid of the lie is we ought to do an hour and just do that sometime. We could do, you know, a workshop just on theater of the life focuses around the third column again. It talks about who who is it that saying that? Who who is it? That's that's I've got the resentment against this person, but what piece of it in me got threatened? Why am I pissed at that person? And that's what you get to look at. We get to see that we're a whole bunch of characters. I can look at you and there's about 15

characters in youth you follow and and by working the steps, I just get to be who I am. I'm the same with you and I'm the same with you and I'm the same with my wife and I'm the same with my brother. That's what ideally we want to be. How many of you guys are different, are different at one time and you are another. You're one person in AA and you go to work. You're another person you with us and you get in bed and you think you're done freaking one, you know, and you get, but you're all these different characters. You know, you got the mercenary and you've got this and this guy that I'm going to kill everybody

like, and then you've got this little guy that's sitting and watching some woman show crying in the middle of the afternoon. It's like, wait a minute. Well, who's, what's this character we've got? We're a bunch of different strange people in here. That's all it's about. It's getting centered. Hang on a second. I got somebody written me one. Before I forget,

I have a problem holding.

I have a problem with my handwriting. No, I have a problem. No, she writes beautiful. I have a problem holding my old sponsees accountable or even keeping the track of them when I get too many. Some practice tips for please how to handle for example, 30 or 40 sponses that have gone through the steps and sometimes helping the newcomer. What a great question and you can answer part of this, I'll just answer right off the top.

At a certain point, guys, we stop

taking these kids on the race. Big book. If you want to read the page that talks specifically about that, If there's in a chapter called Working with Others and it gets pretty specific about about when and how to help. At a certain point, I need to back off and let God take care of this business and I need to stop meddling in the middle of it. You follow. I want to get them to a certain point again. My job as a sponsor is I'm going to get you through the 12 steps and I'm going to hold you accountable after that.

I've got guys that I sponsored 20 years ago, folks, and every once in a while, out of the clear blue sky, one of these guys calls me and we visit. I'm not working with them anymore. Technically, I'm probably not their sponsor, but they still use me as a sounding board occasionally and I can be there for them. You follow, but it's not my job as a mother hen with all the related chickens. That's how people get freaked out about sponsoring so much. There's this big idea that you can't sponsor a whole bunch of people. I'm going to tell you this, I've said it 1000 times. If some of you out there would get off your butt and start sponsoring a few more, some of us in this room

wouldn't have to sponsor so many. That's just a fact.

Real quick on that same that same piece, any of you guys got kids? Little kids. Yeah,

this is great little analogy of, of, of what we're talking about, about sponsorship. You have a baby. Where is my little pregnant? There she is right there. It's coming. Kid. You, you, you have this baby and this little baby is really little. And when the the kids, let's say the kids two years old, what do you do with a 2 year old? You don't ever let the little shit out of your sight. You're looking at him just like that. You're watching work. He goes this way. You go this way. He goes this way. You go this way.