The 4 Seasons Workshop at the 1st NM Indian AA Convention in Albuquerque, NM

When we come back from our break, we're gonna then talk about the medicine wheel's concepts and laws and how do they fit to steps. Because then they make you wanna look forward to doing the steps. So let's take about a 14 minute break. Finding those issues which help us discover that knowledge of the creator. It is through the defect where we discover that knowledge.

That doesn't mean that it's bad or wrong. Now, in the medicine world too, we often talk about the four directions of things. So we're talking about the four directions of life. Baby, youth, adult and elder. And that's our directions.

That's the way life goes in a circle. But very often, when we come into recovery, many of us, there is a place where the medicine wheel is broken. And for many of us, that medicine wheel is broken between the youth and the adult. Because you see, we grow up or whatever, then many of us we start drinking when we are in the youth. So physically we will grow up.

Our bodies will grow, we get married, we have children, but emotionally we are like teenagers. We don't grow up, we're immature even though we're older. I remember I first come into recovery, you know, I was I was a divorce and all that stuff then, when I finally got to that point, I went in a relationship, I went out with this, this, woman twice and I found myself going in my jewelry box trying to find my class ring. I wanted to go steady. Hell, I was 33 year old.

They don't even go steady no more. Right? But I wanted to go steady. I wanted to pin her, you know, so you show all your buds, you know, she's wearing my ring. Christa's, you know, nearly halfway to the coffin and I'm still, you see, still going this old way.

So very often when we come back and we work the steps, it's about growing up, you know. It's about coming back to that place and, continuing my growth. Does that make sense? There's this is broken. This is it's not good or bad, it's where we stop in an unseen world.

So we gotta come back there, do some things and grow up to become mentally healthy and mature. Now, what we're leading up to is because the steps is, to take a look at the human being who is in recovery from a native point of view, well, let's look at what would it look like for a native person to grow up? Did the creator make a path of things that we are supposed to experience as we grow up? Is that already in place or is it just an accident, you know? Or or is there something we're supposed to do?

So if we look a little bit further at what is it like to grow up as a native person because if we have an idea about that, then we get into the steps, we look at the steps or we read the big book from our native point of view. So we wanna just take a look at this cycle of life. So we'll look at that and then we're gonna go and apply just these basic concepts to an approach through the 12 steps from an Indian way of looking at it. Now, we're gonna talk about these these developmental cycles here and about growing up. See, very often we, judge one another just based on things that we see about one another.

So we look at that one, we say, well, those those Indian men, see, they can't trust, don't talk, don't feel. That's what you hear sometimes, you about that. Or look at that stone face, so that one don't talk or this one does that or see. So we tend to start judging and putting people in categories but, you know, a lot of times we don't know what's really going on inside of a person. Sometimes we don't even know what's going on inside of ourselves.

So we wanna talk about about growing up because it seems that the creator made he made a system for us to grow as human beings to grow up to be mentally healthy. That there's certain things we're supposed to experience and if we don't experience them, then we will see behavioral differences later on. So we're gonna talk about that. So when we look at certain things in the steps, we're looking at it with a point of reference that that will make sense to us as human beings. So if we take a look at the cycle of life of an Indian person, and this applies I think to any human being, But it seems that when a baby is born as a human being, one of the first things it needs to experience is a sense of trust.

And this might be from birth to maybe 18 months. That time frame, that child needs to experience a sense of trust. It's a feeling. In other words, that little baby you see moms, there's hold them every time they cry and they touch them and carry them and they do all this stuff, you know, just constantly with them. That's why in a traditional way they carried them every place they went.

Right? In a traditional way. They always never. Never the discipline, everything was just They just, no matter whether they worked or what they did, they just had that baby hanging on them all the time. Now what happens, see, because there's 2 roads.

Let's supposing that the baby like, the sense of trust, it doesn't develop a sense of trust. See, a sense of trust when you have that is a feeling and it's and it's this feeling, it's like the world is a good place and man, I belong in it. See, that sense of trust. Because if you don't have a sense of trust, there's two worlds in you have a sense of mistrust. So if you have a sense of mistrust inside of that human being, then you later on, you'll see behavioral differences occur.

So if I have a sense of mistrust, the world is in a good place and I don't belong here, then later on you see wall builders, difficult time in relationships, cannot connect, see, cannot be intimate. So as we look through these steps and we start to realize now that maybe trust is a issue. That's the normal state for the human being. See, I thought for a long time, trust was abnormal. You're stupid to trust.

Where I raised was raised is dumb. When I was drinking, I would never trust no one I didn't drink. Jeez. Look at the guy. Don't drink.

Don't trust him. Right? It's like you don't know what you do at all? So I was you say, I thought you only trust, see, you trust your buds that are drinking. So I thought it was abnormal for a human being to trust.

I thought it was stupid that people trusted but then later on I learned that the fish by its design was designed to swim, the bird was designed to fly, the human being is designed to trust. That is a natural state of the human being, but I didn't know that. See, until a little bit later on. Now, let's just say that, like a baby, like, they have this thing called TLC. Like a long time ago in Germany, they used to find that most babies put in orphanages died.

They they feed them, so you change their diapers. But most babies put in orphanages died in the 1800. So when they started to research that, they found out in Germany, there was this, orphanage where the babies weren't dying. And they so they sent a little team over there. They say, why is that happening?

Well, it's already got over there. There's this big German lady and she had, you know, worked there, but she had this system. She'd hang a string of diapers. She'd have this diaper hanging on her shoulder, and she'd have one kid in that little pouch. This side, she'd have another pouch.

See? She had a kid hanging in there and then she'd have one on her back and they were hanging on her back, 3 of them. So she'd walk around doing her work and cooking, see these babies are just flopping all over her like that. Well, what they found out was that that was this simple. Those kids had developed this sense of trust and so they would they would continue to live.

See. So one of the things we need to know when we come back to this principle laws and values, when we start to change our thinking, if I find and I discover look at my my unmarriageability or I get see, where am I in terms of spoon and intent with that? If I find out I'm a mistrusting person, I have a lot of mistrust, Well, then what happens if I go work on that? Yet, see, where am I in terms of spirit and intent with that if I find out I'm a mistrusting person? I have a lot of mistrust.

Well, then what happens if I go work on that? Because very often we work on symptoms. There's something wrong with me in relationships. I cannot be intimate. I just can't take risk.

I gotta learn to be a risk taker, but can I be a risk taker if I don't create back within myself a sense of trust? So if I work in a trust, will the risk taking ability change without me working on it? So I'm working on the right stuff. See, you can Listen, I don't know what I don't know. You can work on the wrong stuff and be working on the symptom and it won't ever change.

Even if it's just really a struggle. Now the neat thing about the human being is, if we have missed something in this developmental process, we have the ability to go back and put it back inside of ourselves, see, to be restored to sanity. So we have the ability, if we've missed something, so most of this that we're going through these developmental stages is to kinda get from I don't know what I don't know to now I know what I don't know. So once I know these things, as I start to work those steps and see, I should be able to really accelerate my growth and really grow at at a very sound path if I know how the great spirit made us and I work in harmony with getting me back to that system he made and not invented. Now let's just say that you have a little baby, say 18 months old, has developed a sense of trust.

In other words, they have this feeling, and we've seen some of them, the world is a good place and they're not belonging it and then they start walking. Now, the adults will call that next stage autonomy or it also means a sense of independence. So a 2 year old, when they can start walking, it takes 3 adults full time, see, working in shifts just to hang with them. Sleep till they get up there. You You you you start to set them on a ground and their feet are going like this.

They're just waiting for you to let them hit the ground and they're off. And they're into everything. I mean, they're just into the dirt and they're tasting this and taking toast and bumping it in the milk and reaching in and squeezing it and making messes. See? Now what's the 2 most favorite words of a 2 year old?

No. No. Uh-uh. Now at that developmental stage, that 2 year old has to develop a sense of independence. So they try to break away from mom and dad.

I am my own person now. You wanna do this? No. Well, let me butter this. I'll do it myself.

Uh-uh. You need this? Uh-uh. No. Uh-uh.

No. No. No. No. See, and they did a 2 year old would be a perfect juvenile if they could just drive a car.

Right? They're just tearing everything up. Now, you'll see very often, like, say, 2 daughters come over to mom's place, each as a 2 year old. And one, one of the moms will come over, they take their 2 year old, they sit him on a chair and she just sits there so perfect and so proper. The other sister brings her kid over and I'm telling you that little boy just tears grandma's place up.

He's into everything, pots and pans and exploring and doing all this stuff. And they say to that person, why isn't that one like that good little girl? That good little girl may very well be the one that's not developing mentally healthy. You see? Because you're supposed to develop that sense of trust, that that that sense of that freedom.

Because it's at that stage where you start to learn to make choices and decisions. I'll do it myself. Thank you. So you see those little 2 year olds doing that, you see. When you see them making a choice or a decision, like, they they draw this weird thing or whatever and they show it to you, oh, I like how you decided that.

You're something. You're good at it. And you see them, you know, the you walk her nose up in the air. Oh, I'm good at it. So at that stage, you see, you're supposed to develop that sense of that sense of of independence.

Because if you don't develop that sense, it's a feeling, a sense of being independent, then what will you see later on? Can't make decisions, indecisive, see, wishy washy, not taking risks, afraid of this, afraid of that. Does that make sense? So when we start to develop ourselves, we go through the steps and we start to come back and take a look at this developmental cycle as we work the steps and I see I'm having trouble choice and decisions, not having a hard time in relationships, and I can ask myself, do I have this feeling of independence? If not, then maybe I need to go back and do something to bring it back inside of myself so so I can have that stage because that's how the creator made me.

He says, one thing to grow up in my world that I created to be mentally healthy is you must develop a sense of trust. That you belong in this world, it's a natural state for you, you see, and you love being here. Not only that, you're functioning from choice and decisions. See, that you have the ability to do that. On what?

Well, the that's really handled in a step. Like, you you see, where is it you function from trust, at the level of spirit intent? Trust in that sense is a decision. If you trust someone too much, that's not trust. Right?

There's a different issue than trust. And, that's some kind of a fear. We'll get into some of that. Could we just ask that one just a little bit later? Because there's more information that will really help.

It's like you cannot trust is not a volume. Trust is a decision. So you cannot trust too much. There's that's called some other things, but not trust. Any other questions or comments on this?

The next stage you go through is a stage called initiative and this happens about ages or maybe 4 to 7. Now, you see little kids, what you'll see them is, all of a sudden, they just go from tearing everything up, all of a sudden you see them, they they become really, pretending type. They have, like, imaginary friends, pet turtles, and they make you set, places for them at the supper table, set hearing from every friend and they talk to them just like they're real. And then you'll see them, they do all sorts of weird things, you know. One one day, they're, they have a pan on their head and they pretend to be a policeman, then the next day they're like a cop, then the next day they're cowboys and they want all this stuff on them.

See, well, it's at that stage they are developing and so they're saying, I wonder what it's like to be a policeman. See, so they put a pin on their head and they went around blowing sirens and doing that stuff and the next day, I wonder what it's like to be a call a call person, you know, a cowboy. So they started shooting like this, so you see Dua stuff and you'll see them sometimes they'll come out, like, on their they'll they'll pretend like they're dogs. See, they'll come out, woof, woof, woof, woof, and or bow, bow, bow, bow, bow. And they'll see, grab your pan like that and they'll set up and bark like that and you reach up there, get a cookie, see, make them speak, see, and then you give them that cookie, pat them on the head, see, kick them in the see, and have now you now it's okay, see if you're 3, 4, and 5 doing that.

But if you got a teenager that's doing that, like, barking like a dog, you're really in trouble. You got a sick kid. It's really bad. Right? So it's at that stage where they are developing now imagination, the ability, division, creativity, skills, so they're developing that.

Then you'll see this you, this young person will grow and they'll come to that next stage of development called industry or another word for it is sense of accomplishment. So at that stage, these are those preteenage years, there's 2 feelings that the human being needs to have. One feeling is, I'm good at something feelings. I'm good for something feelings. We need to have that feeling.

I am good at it. Now you see, like, culturally, we always we knew who we were. You see, there's that, why am I, who am I, and where am I going? Royce knew. Well, you know him.

He's a hunter. You know her, shizla. And that that feedback was always to give us that feeling of being good for something, good at something. You see, a lot of teachers are pretty good at it in schools. They have little badges and little happy faces, you know.

You go up there, you get your test, you go, oh, look, you get a blue happy face. See? Man, you're something. See, I'm good at it. So you get those I'm good at it feelings.

So you'll see boys clubs or some of our drum groups. And what what they're doing is they're giving those youth those feelings we I'm good at it. I'm good for something feelings. But you see what happens if you don't develop those feelings? It's a polarity system, so I will develop then, I'm not good for nothing feelings.

I'm not good at anything feelings. Excuse me. 4th to that date? 8. At age.

8 to 12. That's the pre teenage years. So if you develop at that age, I'm good for nothing, I'm not good at anything feelings, then later on, you'll see behavior. Hey. Why don't you go try this?

Not me. But I think you can draw, you can no. I I I wouldn't be good at it. See, you don't even see in body language. They're just they're just not good at anything, you know, those type of feelings.

And you'll just see a resistance that can't make decisions and just real withdrawal, see, type of things. So it's at that age, it's very, very important, you see, to develop within the human those two feelings. Now let's say I get in recovery and I can examine through the set of steps that I don't have those feelings. The neat thing about the human being is I have the ability to come back and develop them. I need to have those to be to grow mentally healthy.

Now you take a look at how many of us have been raised in, dysfunctional families. How many of us have been raised by alcoholic parents like me? How many of us has many of our relatives drinking? How many of us have been told I mean, did we did somebody like, when we were growing, did we develop a sense of trust or did we, have good choices and decisions, right, 2 year olds, you see? When you're supposed to be going, no, uh-uh.

Oh, yes, you will. Shame on you. Bad girl, bad boy, smack, see, slam, kick. Then all of a sudden, you don't develop those feelings as normal, so I just start to grow up acting a certain way. There must be something wrong with me.

Then you start into some of the violence and some of the sexual abuse and some of the other things many of us have experienced. So we start to grow up with no sense of trust, no sense of independence. I'm good for nothing. You're good at nothing. Even the input from schools and all these different things, so we started to grow up as native people, growing as dysfunctional families, not having these feelings which the creator designed for the human being to have.

Does that make sense? Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. But even for us, you know, as native people, alcohol is about a symptom.

There's other things that we have to work on. But I think you see a lot of that in in our kids. Ourselves grew up that way, many of us. That's the way it was. Now we just grew up thinking that was normal.

I didn't know there was another way. Right? It's like my dad would go drinking or whatever. Well, we knew, you know, his patterns really well, and we heard when he come back to the res. You know, we always had, like, a lot of old cars and stuff out in our backyard.

So we'd hide food in there. So we'd when he comes to out the back window, you go back to where that food was, we had stuffed stashed, see, hoping he wouldn't come find us. That's that was but we weren't the only one. A lot of people did that. That was just the way you did it.

It was a real now, you know, it's a survival thing. But you see well, it's just like, myself when I was, I grew up in a pretty dysfunctional family And when I was in this age here, from age, that since when I'm supposed to be developing a sense of, industry or accomplishment from a time I was, a little before I was 10 years old to a little after I was about 11a half, I was sexually molested by a uncle minimum weekly. So it was also one of my favorite uncles, come from a large family. And that went on all the time. Then one time, he went to the last to a party there and somebody shot him 6 times.

They got a big fight. I was so happy when it happened. But then when I saw how my mom and everybody acted, they were all sad. I had the wrong feeling there. I was glad the son of a bitch got it.

See? It's how I thought, and I never ever told anybody that ever till I was 33. But then you'd see me in relationships. Relationship after relationship after relationship. I built these walls.

You see, and I just couldn't let anybody through and, god, I wanted to. Or sometimes you'd see a woman, you know, that would have that insight to get through those walls. I just give them signals. See? Come on.

Come on. Come on. Come on. You know? Back.

Back. Back. Back. Back. Back.

Come on. Come on. Back. Back. Back.

Back. Back. Back. Back. So what I do, I just go drink some more.

See? So so I just go through them, but I could never get a relationship and keep it. I couldn't even tell you how I felt. I didn't I didn't recognize feelings. I was 37 years old.

It wasn't it actually wasn't. And a certain case, about 2 months ago, I was telling I was telling Deborah, when you feel like this, what is that called? You're still discovering them. Before that, I went through a, you know, a thing where I went through a set of steps and everything. I had a whole bunch of them crop up.

I didn't know what that name of that was. I never had that I had to run around trying to find out what is the name of this thing when you feel like this, when this thing is there, what is it? I didn't know that. But you see, the law is, it doesn't take account whether you are a child or not. It doesn't take account for that.

It takes account for whether you live in harmony with it or not. If you are raised out of harmony with it, then your style of life is gonna be a certain way. The only catcher is, the human being can change and I, as a human being, it doesn't matter who did what to me. Bottom line, see, is this like a What did I really want this relationship with my uncle after he died and after I started, you know, trying to get free of it? What I really wanted is I wanted him to come back to life.

Just give me a day with him. That would've done it. Then he could have died and I could have went on, you know, died again. I could have went back and forgiven him, but he didn't come back. So I spend this time, you see, what's wrong with me?

I must have done something wrong and dwelled in that forever. So he really really was impactful. Even though I kept a hit, it was it touched every area of my life. There was no area of my life wasn't touched. Job, relationships with children, relationships, every place was because of that issue, but I couldn't bring that up.

So I hung on to it. But then you would take a look at me. My sister used to call me a en garde. She said it in our language, but it was it meant en garde. See, I could never sit sit with my back to the wall and I always knew where the doors were.

See, even at the supper table, we eat I couldn't sit in the middle because we had a large family like a table. I could never sit in the middle, I had to sit on the end. I couldn't do it. See? And I just eat, never said nothing, always watching.

See? And and a lot of those things you see, you know, when it's happened, like, your dad will come up and say, I'm gonna ask you the truth one I'm gonna ask you one time, tell me the truth. You tell him the truth, bam, right across the room. So pretty soon you learn, you're gonna get it anyway, just say nothing. Right?

Don't say nothing. So see, then you start to grow up that way and then you become very silent. So then it's not do you not say nothing to him? You take no risk. You tell nobody nothing unless you want them to know it.

Or you might tell them something, see, to use or to manipulate, but you don't tell them anything. Because if you do, you see, you're gonna get it. Does that make sense? Now, you just take, once we come to, the stage of identity, and these are the teenage years. See, at the stage of identity, this is a very, very critical stage for the human being.

This is the first time in the life that a human being will consciously seek the answer to those 3 questions teenagers do. Why am I? Who am I? And where am I going? And that's why you see him doing all these weird things.

Jeez, one day their hair is green and they wear these kind of suits and see a week later, they're dressed like this. They like this kind of music. So at that identity stage, the human being must have this feeling, the feeling of belonging. It has to belong. It's a feeling that it seeks, so they you see them clusters, they get little groups.

Right? They find their mom and dad, what kind of music do you like? Country and western, they like rap, see. You're out, see, we're in. So they start to develop, you see, this this identity.

And you see them do a lot of weird stuff from an adult's point of view. They're just really weird. But they're seeking out that's why gangs are so effective. See, in our culture, it wasn't that difficult to get an identity because we hunted, see, we fished, we cured, we tanned, we did all these things. Would you take these modern times?

Hell, you don't need to hunt. You don't need to cook. See, when are you 1? Why don't I get my driver's license? Jeez, I can't wait.

16. Hurry up. Hurry up. Hurry up. Then what's next?

Well, drinking, say 18. Well, I can't wait to get there so I can be 1. But so we end up with our identity, with our with our heart see, it's why gangs work so well, if you think about it. So it's very hard to be somebody. You take native people come into a urban big urban society.

If we don't have, you know, good, like, drum groups and powwows and that kind of stuff where people can start to develop that, gangs always fill that need of belonging. You know him. He's the lord. You know her, shizla. You see?

So gangs are very, very effective. Now what'll happen, say, as we grow up and we don't get an identity? Later on, maybe in the late thirties, you'll see you'll see very funny behavior among, like, men, for example. You see a lot of alcoholism, suicide, a lot of depression. You see a lot of them will dump their wives about that age and they go back and they try to find 1, 17, 18, 19, see, 20.

Real young ones. And you'll see them. They'll even dress funny. They're, like, wear all their cigarettes up in their t shirts again. You know how they used to do Lucky Strikes or whatever?

They roll them up in there and, they dress in green hats and, purple pants and pink socks and you see them coming to a party. Smack open the door, run to the middle of the living room, jump up on top of the coffee table and they make the announcement. I'm here. The party can begin. See, the kid's here.

See, acting like a teenager, trying to recreate the past. And so we'll see that type of behavior happen later on. Then we get all the stage of identity, like in the late maybe 19, 20 years old, if we're growing abnormally. So it's at that stage, we're supposed to be searching, trying new things, finding the answer to those 3 questions. Who am I?

Why am I? And where am I going? So once you get yes? I Same way. You'll see a lot of different behaviors in women also doing that.

Sometimes because someone, they might figure out how to, like, see others and childlike or adolescent behavior. But that's natural for me because I know where I'm coming from. But one of the things that you don't hear a whole lot of dialogue about is men trying to catch up emotionally, let alone women. And a lot of times when I see it, you know, you come you I mean, you might hear somebody share in a meeting that you might have known for a long time, and they're starting to identify it because we're able to read between the lines a little bit. But it's not talking about Oh, no.

You know? I've I've heard very few women talk about trying to catch up. Like like for me, like, I was a total alcoholic when I was 15. And, like now, probably, maybe I was about 19 or 20. And one of the things that's been exciting for me is because I was sedated, like, there's no real important here, like, when you date, it means a lot to me now.

Like, it's even like, basically, just holding hands, something like that. It means a lot to me whereas I see a lot of the people, young or old or adult, take take it for granted. And see, with me and my development, I don't take anything for granted anymore. It means a lot to me. But like I said, you don't hear a whole lot of dialogue dialogue.

And I think it's really important that we as men and women should start talking about it and start getting into it, you know. And, you know, I'm not worried about whether I catch up or not, but it's just being able to identify what I was and just kind of holding on to it and just going through. Well, you know, there's more and more, native people are getting a longer term recovery than we've ever had before and in larger numbers. But one of the things we're finding in a lot of communities we work in, in recovery, people are stuck. There's like a level you get to, and it's like, so Yeah.

Like, what next? You know? And I and I think we need to start sharing some of that that new stuff everyone is working in. But once again, you think like you're the only one who has it. Really exciting time for me.

I kinda all feel like I'm in my 1st year of survival. Uh-huh. You know, that that that needs a lot to me. You know? Sure.

Did we answer your question about women's behavior? Well, I don't know. In my experience, when I reached that point where I'm supposed to have identity, I was abused, and I shut off. I turned off, and I stayed turned off for many years, and then I turned to alcohol. Uh-huh.

And and and many of my sisters had babies. Mom was saying that babies at that time. You know? I had a clinic to let them know maybe. But, for me, I I don't recognize what what I miss in that development.

So I wouldn't even recognize that interest. Because maybe for men, getting up and partying and and having sex and going to women is natural for them in that period. But for us for us to do that is adverse behavior. Because 14 to 17, women shouldn't be doing that. So we aren't really going through our adolescence again when we're doing that.

We're punishing right now. Right. So what is it? Totally different experience for us, but I don't know what at the 50 of 70 years old is exactly like it was when they were teenagers. Yeah.

She's got the same haircut. And they're 60 70 years old and that gained so many strikes. And they can't see that they're locked in. They're not well, but they progress physically. They got old physically.

Their bodies are old. They're behaving as bad as teenagers. And women behave that way just like men do. And I don't think necessarily that they see it, and I don't think necessarily that they do it intentionally. But we're in some of the communities, the community, the all of our potential.

What I see, which must be incredibly frustrating for somebody that's 16 or 17 years old, is I see those 16 and 17 year olds trying to figure out what they're supposed to be as an adult and what they're looking at or experiencing in the whole community. And there's a bunch of teenagers in old bodies. Mhmm. And and they're having a real hard time. They get real rebellious, and it and it must be scary.

If I think about it, I have no idea. I don't I don't have I I don't know how this all conflict. I'm 40 41 years old, and I'm figuring out now, you know, how do we get to the other side of conflict? And there can be everybody can have their own opinion and not be wrong. I'm just learning that.

You don't understand that intimacy. And when you're 15 to 17 disease, and it's got black. And it's like they they've got stuff in that era. And I'm not saying this consultant. I'm just saying I don't think they even see it.

And it's like, we can't get our children to that next stage if we don't grow up. As adults, You know, I'm 45, and I looked around, and I asked questions to other people my age. Well, I felt 45 when I was in the 5th grade. You know? I'm ready to retire with all that responsibility that I had, you know, with a job taken care of, you 7 sisters and 3 brothers.

My dad always out looking for my mom, me taking care of my mother. You know? I I was an old man. You know, when I got out of high school, I was ready to go out and pack it. I really was.

You know? Guys, I was the hero student in my family. Yeah. You know? For me is to be able to recognize a lot of things and accept them for for what they are that I'm putting myself.

Alright. That's the front here. From a woman's point of view, I knew exactly what he was talking about when he put his cigarettes in his sleeves, actually, did not do that. And went to the party and jumped on the cocktail and put out here. Well, I didn't hear that he went to a party chasing women or anything like that that kind of thing.

It was more of a of a personhood type thing I was talking to Sue Elder, yesterday or day before yesterday, and I asked her I says, what a shame, you know, looking at it from a culture point of view. And she sat there for a long time and, she come back and she says, shame is the deepest wound that a human being can experience. Shame is that of all of them, that is the deepest one. And I just thought about that because that's a lot, you know, of what, we have many of us how we have been raised, those are the types of things we need to work in the recovery process, is to find a lot of that because, it's inside of ourselves. Right?

Yeah. I know exactly that too, but, Yeah. I knew exactly what you're talking about. I because I I I went through this. You know, in recovery, I went through this.

I'm not alcoholic. I'm an alanine. But what I found myself doing in recovery after I've been in a while was that I realized that I never honored my femininity. You know, it's like, growing up as a teenager, I mean, I love nice, throw my hair, you know, this is makeup. But then always growing up with responsibility, I was also that 45 year old woman Sure.

Which is exactly what my mother did. My mother, like, never went through adolescence because, like, immediately, she was this 45 year old woman. Having had a child at 17, I was ready to be that 45 year old woman. And so what ended up happening was that I gained a lot of weight, you know, 35, £40, no longer had that picture of femininity. You know, it was, like, I was just this big thing.

No no feminine, no masculine, just just a being, you know, like because, also, because I was afraid. I was afraid of being attractive because what happens? What if you are? What if, you have to deal with all the feelings? That's right.

And saying no exactly what you're talking about. So what I ended up doing in recovery, once I lost someone that way was that I started to dress and to act inappropriately, you know, wearing clothes that shouldn't really it it it looks great on a young teenager. I mean, how many times do you walk down the the street and you see, you know, women who are in their forties or something, and it's like you go, why does she dress like that? You know? It's like, that doesn't look great on her teenage daughter.

And and I did all that stuff. Uh-huh. I did that, trying to reclaim that part of me that I lost. When I'm a 40 year old woman, you know, in a 12 year old body Sure. Jay?

Say, well, Jay, I'm not calling, Jarrod, thanks. And they're really good and it's really important that we ask these questions and also that we take back to, people who sponsor some of the solutions that we hear. I believe a number of us because we grew up in dysfunctional families are stuck in the survival mode because of how we grew up. And the only way we know. And so for me, getting into recovery and trying to do some recovery step, I always go back to that.

And and a lot of times, I catch myself doing it, not really seem to justify. It's just the snap reaction. And so for for me, sharing with other other colleagues and being involved in something like this is really important because it gives me an opportunity to, listen to other Indian people, how we survive in the world. You know? And, And, actually, after survival, we've come to live.

And I'm right at that point. I'm learning to trust. Mhmm. Just barely learning trust. I made your soul.

And I'm just now getting a developing a sense of trust in non Indian people. Mhmm. It's taking a long time. A long time. And I think that, that search for identity that comes with, adolescence is something that I'm thinking of getting in touch with.

And so it's important that as alcoholics, we continue to work the steps of recovery, especially as the inventories. Because in the inventories, I believe that we begin to buy some of those issues that keep us from becoming the people we can be. Okay. Thanks, Terry. I just had a question on your vet Well, one of the things is, that you touched on is really critical for us to look at as native people.

In part of recovery and we find in this is really critical for many other tribes and us as individuals. And, I there was this one point I was, when I come in a sober sober, I was very angry. I mean, almost violent. That's the only thing I knew. So as I worked through that, there was this one thing.

There were certain things if I would just hear about the story like the walk of our people or I would hear about other thing happens to other Indians, you know, a long time ago, I get very rageful. I mean, just get really pissed about it and I just I say, look, then was then, now is now. What's the matter with you? But one of the things we like, when we work in the communities that we find is very important for us to look at in in recoveries is intergenerational healing. And that means this, when they started a long time ago, the boarding schools, some of the Indian schools, that was really initiated by the Department of War and it was a strategy to assimilate native people back into dominant culture and that's documented.

That's not like a secret. But when they grew up, and and they all the way that they got the kids into the schools, the ones that they got in there which was a large portion of, of our of the children then, but they were successful in that, they taught them, hey, being Indian, don't speak your language, don't speak your culture. See. Don't do no ceremonies, don't do this. And they grew up, being quite successful for the most part.