A Cocaine Anonymous Workshop in Toronto, Canada

The big book's description of powerlessness, which is this book, and it's found on page 24, and there is a solution, the chapter, there's a solution. And there's this quote, the fact is that most addict alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so called willpower, becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times to bring into our consciousness, with sufficient force, the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink.

And to share his experience with us about what makes us real addicts, please help me welcome again our friend Chris Ramer. Welcome. Welcome. Can y'all hear me? Yeah.

That sounds pretty good. I better stay away from that. That's probably what's. My name's Chris Raymer. I'm a very grateful recovered, addict, alcoholic.

I I I'm just blown away. I gotta tell you thanks for letting me come up here and do this. The the cats on the committee, I mean, they've been so good. This has been planned for years, literally, guys. Because I'm booked out a long way.

And these guys, they they took that to heart, and they planned this stuff, and they got my flights and stuff arranged so I don't have to have to fly in a cattle car. And it was these they were the best. Put me up in a hotel listen. I'm in a hotel downtown Toronto, right around the corner from the Zanza bar. No.

But listen. I'm gonna. Because I I was here because here listen. On the outside, like, Texas is is littered with these places. They just nude women, nude women, nude This is nude and sinful women.

On the outside of this I mean, the the 2 together, what a concept. I mean, because I've seen plenty of nude women. They weren't sinful, and nothing I had just I'm so excited to be here. It's like being in a little little bit of Europe and and New York City and and what it's just gorgeous place. And, you guys are the best.

I've said it before, I'll get in trouble. These little CDs, they travel everywhere, and they'll get in trouble. Sounds like I'm dissing Texas women, but you Canadian women, it's probably an ordinance someplace. Somewhere, somewhere, there's a town with just ugly women in it. In Canada.

I don't know whether they're not here. I guarantee you. Y'all are something to well, I'd well, never mind. I, we're I love the way we're doing this, because we're gonna kinda squeeze it in, guys. We're gonna we're gonna hit some topics.

We were gonna talk about traditions, and I and I I sat up half the night last night thinking about it, and it just kind of busted up the flow of this. We're gonna kinda stay in the steps, and I just we're gonna give a general some of my thoughts. I'm an alcoholic and a drug addict who nearly died getting to the fellowship, and once I got to the fellowship in the early eighties, I dang near died then too, because I couldn't get anybody to get off dead center and tell me the truth. And I I'm the real McCoy. I'm I'm not a little disco cocaine user.

I'm I'm like some of y'all. Not all of you. Some of you. And, and we wanna talk a little bit about this, but you know, about 5 or 6 years into my sobriety, I, I moved to the hill country, then I couldn't find a job anywhere. They needed a clerical worker at this treatment center, so I said, well, pick me.

I'm in recovery, and and and I'll so I started working at this nice hospital down in Hunt, Texas, and, and I've been there ever since. For 15 years, I've been at this hospital, and I'm delighted to work there. But I get a chance to see thousands of alcoholics and addicts come through our doors, and we're one of the last big detox hospitals, full service detox, and with the pills coming at us, and we're seeing and we stay full 247, so I'm just saying, well, I get to work with 1,000 of alcoholics and addicts, and and I one of the the the things that's the same what seems like with everybody is their dislike for the 12 step movement. Oh, this is AA stuff. Oh, this is Narcotics Anonymous stuff.

This is c yeah, but you don't understand. This is this is the real McCoy. This is the stuff you can stink sink your teeth into here. And the and the ones that stick get excited and a lot of them flourish and and stay sober, and the ones that don't, they're out the door. We have done such a disservice to a perfectly wonderful fellowship that works every time, and we've taken it, because we feel like it's our right to water down this message.

So I'm just gonna I'm gonna say this going in the door, guys. I was in Amarillo, Texas not long ago doing a talk, and I'm eating what little I can eat before I talk, and I'm just picking. And this girl sits down next across from me, and she's well. And she's excited because she gets to sit across from me. Basically, when she wants to bust my chops for a couple hours.

Well, I've heard your CDs, and I just and I agree with most of what you say. Which means, she she don't agree with some of the stuff I say. And and and now she wants to take exception and she wants to her time to explain to me why she doesn't agree with what I say. And I gotta say, I understand all of y'all are the same in in your own little ways and we can discuss this until the cows come home. But at what point did it get where you gotta agree with everything you hear in these fellowships?

I I mean, you don't you don't have to do that in the rooms. Oh, he's so full of b s. Don't even listen to you don't you don't have a problem there, but if somebody comes up and speaks from the podium, all of a sudden they're supposed to be qualified as some kind of guru or something. These guys, you're not gonna agree with everything I say. You're just not.

It's okay. I'm coming out of the big book about politics anonymous. I'm coming out of the literature. I'm coming out of 20 years of experience, and it may not jibe with your experience. Y'all y'all follow?

But sooner or later, we've all got to get on the same page. I had a I was at a meeting. We we have a little group, Ingram Solution Group, and we have AA groups and CA groups that meet their conscious contact. Our little CA group meets there at this same place, and it's called the outpost. This club, you know, it's the out I mean, how Texas is this?

I mean, we're lucky to have indoor plumbing at this place. I mean, it's but it's it's like, it's a little thumper conclave. There's dozens of other groups in the area down in the hills there, but all the little thumpers end up coming over there because they're not gonna catch any any any raft of anything from anybody. They're gonna be okay. Walking in with a big book sometime in some of the groups we go to, you know, it's like heresy.

They're gonna you know, there's groups in Dallas. They'll ask you to leave your big, excuse me, is that a big book? Well, yeah. You can't bring that in here. Literally.

They don't want you to bring books in the meetings. We're here to share from your heart, not from the literature. I said, oh, so you so you we wanna kill some more people. Is that what you're telling me? Okay.

Well, anyway, so this this guy behind me, I've seen him I've met him in Houston before. He's a nice guy, and and and he he's 19 years sober, and he's everybody shares. We're reading out of the literature, and he says he says, my name's so and so, and and I I got up this morning and chose not to drink and drug, and went on and shared his little pitch about what we were reading. And I turned around and looked at this guy like, you you what? 19 years sober.

Now listen. I'm looking at this guy, and I've got all of these alumni, these these cats from our hospital, and little guys I spawn I sponsor about 30 guys, and they're all looking, and every head in the place looks at me. You know, it's like so I'm looking at him, and they're looking at me, because I'm fixing to go eat this guy. You know, and it's like but you understand, my my heart was I didn't want to embarrass this guy or or cause any kind of conflict, but my my heart goes out to the poor little newcomer that's finally got under his little head. He's qualified himself for what fellowship he needs to be in, and he's on some solid ground, and now this this idiot I said it.

I wants to share something like that. Leila just read it. The book is crystal clear. If you can stop doing cocaine because you want to, you ain't one of us. Now listen guys, I'm gonna talk to you for about 4 hours today on and off, and we're gonna answer some questions and stuff.

We're gonna have a cahoot. You know, I'm gonna say this again. You don't have to agree or disagree with anything I say. We're coming out of the literature, but if you but don't argue with me, because it's the literature you're arguing with. And if it makes you uncomfortable, let's visit about it.

But I'm not backing off this one thing right here, right now. Cocaine anonymous is not a self help program. It never has been, never will be. We're a spiritual program of action. The big book instructs us to talk about the spiritual end of this freely.

It's all based on the resolution to our problem being a spiritual experience. If that settles crooked with you, go find someplace else to hide out, because you're not helping us, and you're doing the newcomer a huge disservice. You're confusing everything. It is not your right to come in these rooms and say anything you wanna say. We have one message.

This is as controversial as it's gonna get, guys. I love you, and I don't wanna piss anybody off. But you gotta get straight with this. If this business of the end result being a spiritual experience sticks in your crawl, you need to either sit and learn something today, or go away. We we have one solution for alcoholism and drug addiction that we know of that works in this in this entire world.

Pharmaceutical companies are working overtime trying to come up with medication that'll fix us. Treatment centers like the one I working at are are are 20 47 trying to work out new ways to to present a message that can help us poor busted up alcoholics and addicts. And the one basic thing that we know that works and works every time is the 12 steps. And yet, you think it's your right to come in and use this as a dumping ground for your problems, and use it as a some kind of a self help program, I go to those meetings so I can keep my experience green, Then you're going to the wrong meetings, because if all you're doing is going into meetings talking about cocaine, you're in the wrong me, I'm telling you. No wonder you feel like you're coming out of your skin.

I don't go to those meetings. I go to literature based meetings where we sit and talk about the power of God, and we watch people grow up and get well around us, and that's what this is about. Let me hit this on something that that Yeah. Something that that Leila was was was talking about earlier. Did I put this?

10 years ago at the hospital where I was working, we didn't get too many relapsers in there. We got people that were brand new off the street. Little crackhead come in, and this was after the eighties, and they're coming all fried up. And and, you know, and then we got to see the little the little epidemic of the meth addicts coming in, and now we're starting to see the tip of the iceberg with these pill addicts. And I guarantee you, some of y'all in here right now are tangled up into medications already, and then that's the next wave.

And it's gonna make the crack epidemic look like kissing a baby's butt, because this is nasty stuff. I'm telling you, detoxing off these pills is like is give me cocaine any day. Oh my gosh. And they they are suffering, and they suffer for months. Months months months.

So it's just something we were looking at, but we didn't see a lot of relapsers come back in. I gotta tell you the anomaly, what we're to see, and I'm starting to do some statistical work on it, is that we're seeing a lot of people that were sober many years in Alcoholics Anonymous or Cocaine Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous into the fellowships who are now relapsing coming back in after 15 years, 10 years, 20 I've got I know 3 guys, 2 of my sponsor that had 21 plus years sober and relapsed. Now, why? Well, they got sick again. The obsession to use returned, the spiritual malady returned, they got uncomfortable in their skin and their heads started telling them they could use again.

And usually it's with us, with long term sobriety, we go back to a prescription pad to try to fix the problem. What we're trying to treat here is not drug addiction. We're trying to treat this this untreated internal condition that is drug addiction. Everybody thinks that alcohol and drugs, drug addiction is about the alcohol and drugs. It's not, and that's what I wanna talk about for the short time I've got with you in this deal about this deal about powerlessness is.

One of the problems that we have is that we're not qualifying the newcomer. Why do we see so many? We were talking at breakfast about it. Why do we see so many people sitting in cocaine anonymous uncomfortable in their skins? Oh, that's I hear people all the time in my meeting.

Oh, that's just cocaine. It's different than alcohol. That's rubbish. That's not true. We have the same problems in our in in in all of the fellowships across the board.

Overeaters Anonymous, Gamblers Anonymous, Sex Addicts Anonymous, all the all of the fellowships are experiencing the same problem. You present yourself at the door and say, I wanna come in. We'll let you. And we should. Bill Wilson, over and over in the in the chapter, more about alcoholism, he uses the terms, what but what about the real alcoholic?

We can substitute in here. What about the real drug addict? Everybody gets pissed off at it. What's this real stuff? I'm a cocaine we were just I'm a cocaine if I say I'm a cocaine.

No, you're not. You're a member of cocaine anonymous if you say you are. You can come right on in and drop your little loony or toony or whatever the heck that stuff is in that little bucket. Or some of them littler ones for boutique buckaroos, and I know I know. But but you can drop that 7 a bay, and you can call yourself, and drink our coffee, and date our women, and and read how it works, and do all that you wanna do.

But just but calling yourself 1 doesn't make you 1. In Texas, we we said all you can call yourself a chicken if you want to too. That doesn't mean you walk around in the in the yard and scratch, and but that doesn't that doesn't mean you're one of us. In order to be diagnosed with alcoholism and drug addiction, you gotta have certain characteristics. And in treatment, we have this big fight.

I was talking to Mike, my buddy from from wherever the hell he's from here, can Canada someplace, but he works in a treatment center industry, and I've known him for years. But he has the same problem in his facility as we have at ours. It's qualifying because everybody's idea of what an alcoholic an addict is is different, and it's not. The big book describes it quite clearly. And and guys, we're gonna run over it real quick, but I gotta tell you, buddy, I'm around all day.

If any of you guys wanna get together and write this stuff down and jot some notes so you can qualify. A lot of you guys are working with people in sponsorship situations that the reason they're such a pain in the butt to work with is that they haven't figured out what they are yet. Let me give you a let me give you a little history. Some of y'all will nod off to sleep. This is gonna be 5 minute history, unless I see you squirming too much, and then it's gonna be a 10 minute history.

In 1971, one of our great presidents Oh, we we have had so few. I know that I I catch so much trouble with these CDs. You're badmouthing America. Nah. I'm badmouthing our leadership.

It freaks me out sometimes that y'all even let us come into your country. We had a we we had a a President Nixon in 1971. On his way out the door, one of the last things he did was sign a piece of legislation in our country that allowed basically what it did is it did away with a thing called a a piece of paper called a certificate of need, which allowed anybody and everybody. He understood that alcoholism and drug addiction was a disease. He had some faults, but he understood that.

And he knew that treatment was the answer. And so what he did was he signed in this legislation called the Hughes Act, which allowed us to open a treatment center on every corner we wanted to. They were like Timmy Hortons all over. All over I wish we could trade you now. You know?

I said, what do you what do you like best about Canada? Timmy Hortons. Okay. That's that's this is the best. But, so anyway, these these all these insurance companies started opening up, and people started coming into these insurance comp these these treatment centers, but the insurance companies got involved, and they started paying like slot machines.

They said, damn. We're gonna get rich here. And so everybody's insurance policies, even the worst insurance policies, they had a little rider on that on that on the butt end of them saying, and if you need treatment, we'll pay for that too. Now this wasn't cheap treatment, you know, $10,000 stuff. This was average treatment stay in the seventies eighties was was about approximately $40,000 and it would go up from there.

If you had any other kind of disorder or maybe more than one illnesses, you follow, they'd watch you in the cafeteria and you had 2 pieces of pie. He is we have an eating disorder here. You know? And it's like, you're sitting next to a good looking girl. I saw you sitting with her earlier.

Oh, I'll be a sex addict here. And so and every time but you but the insurance companies were just going, okay. We said we'd do this, so we're gonna do this. And buddy, they were paying for it. That's another 30 days.

That's another 30 days. That's another 30 days. And what he was like, what the heck? I can't do anything. And so, the pendulum swings back the other way.

The insurance companies, after paying 1,000,000,000 of dollars of these claims, because we were out there. The industry got got crazy. We were we were out there on the streets dragging heroin addicts in. Well, I don't know if I wanna get sober. That's okay, buddy.

Come on. Let's go. Yeah. We're gonna give you some food, and we're gonna give you a nice place to stay out of. It's cold out here, isn't it?

Come on in here. Let's go. And we get you signed up and you're gonna go, because the middle of knucklehead's gonna go back in 30 days. We're gonna wait 30 days and go get him again. Remember that?

Come on, let's go. Let's And we were doing it. We were we we abused the system. There was a lot of a lot of people went to jail for that kind of stuff. But what happened was the insurance company said, screw this.

We're not gonna do this anymore, and they stopped paying. But the damage was done. What happened was, the point I'm getting at, is that we had a lot of people come into our fellowship, all of our fellowships, that didn't need to be here. We had little little little social misfits that had been bored all their life, and all of a sudden now they have they're alcoholics. They've never had a problem with alcohol to speak up.

They've never had a problem with drugs. You're with us? But they walk in the rooms and they get a, come on, give me a give me a hug. A a hug. I just love to hug.

Oh my God. And now we've got them for life because that's all they're here for. The coffee, the women, the hugs. Oh, I love the fellowship, but they don't have to work the 12 steps to stay sober. And they're the ones that are pissing and moaning out there and wanting to say that you could say anything you want.

Alcoholics Anonymous, about the same time, about in the early seventies, they got on board with this treatment center crap. They got on completely on board. They started producing literature that watered the message down. You all know that living sober book, do they allow that in Canada? If you've got it, open the garbage, hold your nose like this, and drop it into the piece like that, because it's a piece of crap.

You were probably giving it in your in your treatment center. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. If you wanna stay sober, don't get too hungry, angry, lonely, tired. But listen, this is Alcoholics Anonymous doing this.

Everybody wants to knock the treatment centers for watering down the message. Our own fellowship allowed that to happen. It was an article in the grapevine that started this great influx of things called open discussion meetings. Oh my gosh. Before that, what we had was literature based meetings and stories.

We'd get up and I wanna hear your story and how you got well, and then we're gonna talk about the steps. Not not anymore. We're gonna do open discussion meetings. Come talk about your day like I'm interested. You know what I'm saying?

Guys, I wanna get to know Kate. I wanna know everything about her. What a wonderful woman. But I, you know what I'm saying, on a daily basis, we could be friends and we can talk everywhere, but if every hour that I gotta go to a meeting, I gotta listen to her story again, after a while, you know, it's like, come on. Let's give it a break here.

Let's talk about you know what I'm saying? And that's why people are leaving our fellowships by the 1,000. The only people that gravitate to those open discussion meetings, I just love hearing about people's lives. You're a loser. You're I'm gonna I am safe on the podium.

You're a loser. Are you kidding me? Because the kind of power that I'm telling you, the kind of power that Layla and I were talking about is not the kind of power that you that that that uh-uh. Buddy, I'm talking about sitting in a meeting and looking at a little somebody that you've sponsored for a few weeks, and all of a sudden, the light's on in their face, and they're standing up for themselves. You can see the stuff You can see the life changing right before your eyes.

I'm gonna tell you that's what we need to be talking about. Where are we gonna go carry the message of hope back to you again? Man. Oh, we're gonna sit here and listen to somebody. Well, I got so crazy this morning, irritable.

I pulling on that weed eater and pulling on that weed eater, and I just I'm pulling on that weed eater, and I can't get it to work. And I oh my God. You got people in this room that are dying of the obsession to go smoke crack cocaine, but we're going to talk about your freaking weed eater for an hour? And somebody's sitting in here right now, well what's wrong with that? He should be able to talk about that.

He might smoke crack cocaine if he doesn't talk about that. He's gonna smoke anyway. How do I know that? You don't know that. I do know that.

You know why? Because on page 62, it tells me. 62. You little note takers. I love it little boomer.

Okay. Alright. Alright. That's it. Page 62.

What does it say the root of our problem is? Some of y'all never read this. Selfish and self centeredness, exclamation point. That we think is the root of the troubles. They've been driven by a 100 forms of fear, self delusions, self seeking, and self pity.

We step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate. Sometimes they hurt us seemingly without provocation, but we invariably find that at some time in the past, we placed ourselves in a position to be hurt blah blah blah. So our troubles we think are basically of our own making. It goes on to tell us, above everything, we gotta be out of self. It didn't say, out of everything.

We don't we need to be hungry, angry, lonely, tired. But out of everything, we have to stay away from cocaine or alcohol. It didn't say that. He says above everything, we have to be out of our head. Selfish and self centeredness is the problem.

But I think I can go into a meeting and talk about anything I want. Now how selfish is that? And Alcoholics Anonymous allowed it to happen. We watched our meeting schedules change hugely. Thousands of these stupid open discussion meetings opened up, And now, of course, in cocaine anonymous in 82, we just picked up the traditions and the steps.

We said, well, AA's been doing this. We'll do the same thing, and so now it's the same thing. You look at any schedule for for cocaine anonymous, and it's the same thing. It's a a huge preponderance of OD meetings, open discussion meetings, as opposed to to literature based meetings. Now there are pockets, obviously, I'm standing in one, where there's some places where they actually talk about the literature.

How cool is that? Why can't we keep the We ought to be there. We ought to applaud for that, because it's the truth. We're starting to see it swing back the other direction. We're still outnumbered.

We did open we did in London we were in England not long ago doing a primary purpose deal with just the the big book and talking about the 12 steps. Intergroup over there boycotted us, wouldn't even put us on the schedule. I'm so sick and tired of organizations like inner groups telling us what we can do at the group level. You get somebody will come up. You're knocking into groups.

Yes, I am. Why should they be able to decide who goes on a schedule and who doesn't, just because it doesn't jibe with what they're doing? If anything has got to do with the literature, guys, let's do it, because that's what's going to excite you. I hear people all the time in Coccane Anonymous and NAA, especially. I'm just getting bored with the fellowship.

You know why you're bored with the fellowship? Because you're going to the literature and sit in these rooms and watch people have spiritual experiences, you will never be bored. You will have a constant You will have a constant flow of newcomers coming in, excited about actual recovery. Guys, we lack of power is the dilemma. This is what the book talks about on page 45.

Lack of power, that's the dilemma. How are we gonna get some power? Well, that's what this book is about. That's what the 12 steps are about. You're not gonna get the power by just coming into a meeting, talking about the divorce one more time.

And don't misquote me. I I get people, they constantly doing that. That Chris Ramer says, we can't talk about our problems. I didn't I've never said that. I just said, you can't do it in my meeting.

No. It's different. What's wrong with coming before the meeting? Let's go to the coffee shop and talk about our day. I got a bunch of exponsees.

I nonstop, we talk about our problem. You with us? Stay after the meeting. Well, I don't have time. Great.

You might wanna make time. I don't know. But we're not a dumping ground for your problems in our meetings. And and and unless we, as a as a as a as a fellowship, gets gets hip to this, we're gonna be in trouble. There's the program and there's the fellowship, folks.

And we've completely laid the program aside. The program is what's in the book. We've completely laid that aside. For 7 years, I'm in and out of, excuse me, of Alcoholics Anonymous, and nobody I don't even own a big book for 7 years. Oh, don't worry about the literature.

Don't worry about the book. Just come to meetings because after all, meeting makers make it. The problem was about 1979, a merchant marine had shown me this little white powdery substance called cocaine, and I was up to my neck in this stuff. And going to a meeting was not gonna fix the problem. It freaks me out that the cats in cocaine anonymous can't see this.

Treatment center said it's all the same thing. Alcohol is the same as drugs. No. No. It's not.

Are you nuts? What's the saying? I know the solution's gonna be the same. We're never gonna get around to talking about that, but the rest of it, it's all different. The terminology's different.

One's legal, one's illegal. The physiological changes are different. Y'all understand it. The addictive qualities are different. The psychological impairment stuff downstream are different.

What it does to your pee pee is different. I've I gotta check the time. I've said this from a 1000000 podiums. If you think it's all the same, sit down and do a fist step with an alcoholic, and then the next day do a fist step with a crack at it. You did what?

With what? Everybody just y'all follow? But it's all the same. It's all the same. This brings me to the to the to the point where I'm going with this little piece here, is the time it takes to work the steps.

Even in Alcoholics Anonymous, we've watered the message down so much. This idea of taking your time to work the steps has gotta be smashed. I guess if I have accomplished nothing in this room, we need to to do this now. That that stuff nearly killed me in Alcoholics Anonymous, and I guarantee if there's anybody in Cocaine Anonymous or Crystal Meth Anonymous telling people to take their time to work the steps, you need to shut up, because when that person dies, I'm gonna get in your face about it. I can't stop using.

That's what qualifies me for this fellowship. I can't because of you, or mom, or the court, or her, or the job or my health, for there's no reason I I can't stop. So you need a spiritual experience. So we work the 12 steps. That's what brings on the spiritual experience.

But some well meaning puke leans over and tells the little newcomer, easy does it. He takes the line out of context and tells the newcomer to slow down. Let me tell you guys, this is what treatment centers did for us. We got a lot of cats coming into treatment. We got them detoxed.

We got them sitting on their ass. We got them defocused, carrying little teddy bears around and stuff in the eighties. We got them doing a whole lot of stuff, and they leave 30 days, 40 days, 21 days at Mike's place, and we and we get to leave. Right? And we feel so much better.

How how many of you cats have seen people come out of treatment with any kind of sense of urgency at all? It's like, well, I've done my time brother. I dug the ditch. I'm just here to check out the babes now. Everything's cocaine.

Okay. Now what? But they weren't sitting in there on their butt, they were actually doing work, so there were some results to what they were doing. You with us? They got comfortable.

They got detoxed. They were feeling pretty good. Dig. So where's the urgency to sit down and actually do the work? And we buy into it, because the little guy slides up next to him, and he don't want to sponsor the guy anyway, and the guy says, well, I'm not real sure about doing this 4 steps.

He says, no. Don't worry about it. We'll get on it. About the middle of summer, we'll start cranking on that. Don't worry about that.

Right now, you can just go to a bunch of meetings and everything's gonna be okay. But you see, the little guy that's sharing that information might or might not even be really one of us. Maybe he's got years to sit on his butt, waiting to do a 4 step. But let me tell you, the internal conditions fixing to reach up and catch this little alcoholic crack eggs right by the neck, And all the stuff he learned in treatment, and all the promises he made are gonna go south, because when the mental obsession comes back, we get loaded. Then the little kid comes back in, mouth all burned up, can't look anybody in the face, looking down at the ground.

I'm sorry I let you guys down. I thought I was on some solid ground, but I guess and they the guy punches him in the back, says, yeah. Little bastard just didn't want it. If he'd wanted it, he'd have stayed sober. He didn't make enough meetings.

I want to puke. I want to puke. I got a bad rap out there with people talking out their butt like that. You show me in the big book where it says that anything about going to a bunch of meetings will fix what's wrong with you. 90 meetings in 90 days, we gotta we gotta stop that stuff in a heartbeat.

You gotta stop telling people that crap, because that's exactly what it is. It's crap. It's easy to tell this little guy he didn't have a job, he didn't have a relationship, he had nothing. All he can do is just go to meetings. I'm at 90 meetings in 90 days is a piece cake for him.

What are you gonna do about this nice lady over here that's got 3 kids at home and a husband that don't don't want her to go to meetings anyway? Now what's she gonna do? 90 meetings in 90 days. I can't go to 90 meetings in days. When the hell am I gonna work?

Who's gonna take care of the kids? Well, how bad do you want it? You Y'all with me? Y'all understand where we're at? That didn't stop you from going to get coke.

It's 2 different things, 2 completely different things. We just gotta get back on track. What does the book say? The book says, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. In order to get somebody to be fearless and thorough from the very start, they've gotta be convinced they're really one of us.

You with me? I'll climb the mountain, but you better show me a reason to climb the mountain, because I ain't going to do it, because about halfway up that mountain, it gets to be a bear, and I'm gonna crap out. Oh, I'll do your little first step class, second step. Oh, we're gonna get the hug and do another third step. Oh, I'll do that.

Now you want me to start actually writing some stuff and then go make amends? Uh-uh. Wait a minute. Let's I think we're being a little rash here. You know, maybe and then you want me to what?

Go work with a drunk? Go find a crack addict and get work them through this? No. Listen. I already told you, I don't have time to mess with this.

What makes you think I'm gonna have time to mess with that? You with us? But if I could hold a fatal illness over your head, you'll do it. Guys, we don't have cancer wards today filled with people that are there, having to go to to 12 step cancer meetings to get them to go to get chemo. You know, they just like, here's the jury, here's the evidence, boom.

I'm gonna die if I don't do this. I'm gonna go do what I need to go do. If that means puke and lose my hair and wanna die, I'll do it. Come on, guys. Alcoholism, drug addiction kills more people than cancer and AIDS combined, and we wanna treat it like it's some kind of a behavioral problem.

It's not. Alcoholism is this, is a physical response to alcohol and dope, that separates us from normal people. Yeah. Doctor Silkworth was one of the first cats that did some writing about this. He was neurologist at town's hospital in New York for about 16 years.

He began to see some similarities with young people, old people, black people, white people, gay people, straight people. They all showed similar things. Rich people, poor people, guys with patches. Oh my gosh. A a cross section of the world, but he's beginning to see the same things.

All the things that tie tie them together in the doctor's opinion is first starts to talk about it. Once I start, I can't guarantee how much I'm gonna drink or drug. Sometimes I can. Alcoholism, we know today is genetic in nature. Guys, if any of y'all wanna come talk to me, they've done some great studies, throughout the eighties nineties, and then now with the advent of CAT Scans and PET Scans, we there's just no question.

This is genetic in nature. I hear people all the time, especially in cocaine, and everybody that does cocaine is gonna get addicted. That's not true. You're full of it. That's your crutch.

You gotta get away from it. You should see the room shift. Oh, my God. Did we upset some people with that? I'm sorry.

The genetic nature. Can I give can I get somebody addicted to cocaine if I give them enough cocaine? Absolutely. Addicted to the chemical cocaine. Can I get you addicted to heroin if I give you enough heroin?

Absa dang lutely. Opiates. Anybody in this room can get addicted to opiates. If I give you enough, you'll get addicted. Does that make you a drug addict?

No. I get you detox off of them. You dust yourself off and you go away. We saw it come the the cats coming back from Vietnam in the in the in the states. Most of the pace the the the prisoners coming back were addicted to various chemicals, heroin and morphine, explicitly.

We got them to the VA Hospitals. We got them detoxed. Most of those people left. Absolutely never touched another drop of that nonsense ever. Went on and there was a small percentage, 10 to 15% of those those, soldiers coming back were true drug addicts.

And we've had a bear keeping them sober ever since. Y'all follow? It's genetic in nature. Just out of curiosity, how many of you guys can see a genetic connection in your own families? If you gave that family tree a good connect good Yeah.

I don't even know what we're talking about. Most of us in here can see it. Yeah. And it's not just like mom and dad. Look up look up the generation.

It skips many generations, and and and stop looking just for alcohol and drugs, because some of the family situations were such that there was just no alcohol in your family. But but but the spiritual malady, the disease comes out sideways in other areas. Sex addiction, work addiction, overeaters, You'll follow? We get to see an addiction's addiction in this context. It's a it's a bear.

It all needs to be it's genetic in nature. You with us? Great book called Born That Way, that talks about the genetic predisposition. Anyway, I could talk more about that, but the physical stuff is this. It doesn't mean that every time I drink, I turn into a zombie.

It means that often when I drink, I turn into a zombie, and end up drinking more than I intended. You with us? Did you ever that's the question we ought to ask instead of asking, how many times have you been arrested? How many times did you rob that liquor store? How many stop that nonsense.

You asked the the first question to qualify for the physical piece. When you used, did you ever do more than you intended? You used to get some little young adult, little collegiate guy that says, yeah, every time. But you see, that's not me, because I mean, I was in society. I had to work for a living.

I couldn't. I had to force myself to not do it every time. But there were times I forced myself to not to do it, but I did it anyway. There. You know?

The question ought to be with all of us as alcoholics and addicts. To qualify us about the physical piece is this. Did you ever get sick on alcohol or dope? Did you ever do so much that you that you blew beat? Well, yeah.

Did you ever do it more than once? Well, of course. Welcome. Normal people don't do that. They do too much, and they go, oh my gosh.

I shouldn't have done that. I won't ever do that again. I watched my little sister do that. You with me? My twin brother and me caught the bullet.

My little sister and half sister didn't. She drank too much at a fraternity party, sorority party 1 night, and she said, oh my gosh. And then she got sick. She She said, I'm never gonna do that again, and she never did. That's her answer when they you want another drink?

No. I'm starting to feel it. And that means, I don't want another drink. I'm starting to feel it. That just it doesn't relate to me.

You know? I'm starting to feel it too. I want another drink. Do you answer my question? The physical piece the physical piece can be treated by a thing called detox.

A lot of us in there. Bill Wilson wrote a lot about it. A lot of most of us that first got to Alcoholics Anonymous in the early thirties, and I mean, that's exactly what we gotta detox first and get the crap out of our system. Once we get it out of our system though, why can't we stay in that spot of sobriety? The problem is not getting dry.