Step 10 and 11 at the London Primary Purpose conference in London, UK

Mark Mark and Peter are gonna compare the, the question and answers, and Janine's on the roving mic. So she will come to you with the microphone where you can ask your question directly. Okay. I think that's it. I'll hand it over to Mark and Peter.

Yeah. Yeah. You have a lot of power. Yep. Test.

Test. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm gonna come with alcohol. I got a question for you, Peter.

It's something you said last night about the them when they're drunk, and I don't know when is an appropriate time to start working with them. Could you maybe Give me some points on that. Was that a problem with compassion and I've missed the other end? But I'm willing to choose him. Okay.

Yeah. Do you understand here that yeah. You you you get one coming from that one? Compassion and ambulance chasing. Yeah.

Okay. Well, let's let's talk about compassion for a moment. For the longest time, I thought compassion meant 1, 2, 3. Is that better? Little better?

Higher? We need to get higher. You know how to do that. Come on. I said, do I need to do that?

Is that better? Yeah. Yeah? Okay. In in talking about compassion, I thought for the longest time, compassion meant, that I was to, always be soft and, and tender and caring, and and I had pictures of that with compassion.

And what I've come to, know about compassion, it could be that. And compassion can also be telling the prospect, I can no longer work with you because your actions are not proving what your lips is telling me. And so I need to you need to hit a bottom. You need to box till you drop. I'm gonna go work with someone else, and I stand at the door ready for you.

I never give up on anyone because if they would have given up on me, you'd have a different speaker here tonight. Right? But I stand at the door, but your actions are what I'm gonna be paying attention to, and that will tell me how teachable you really are. And I'll work with you. I'll work with you.

I'll work with you and try to raise the bottom and get you to see truth. One of the great things is allowing the prospect to become aware of his illness working on him, and then it's time to move on if that don't work. I may be prolonging the drunk by constantly protecting you and shielding you from the untreated alcoholism that needs to be shown. Make sense? Uh-huh.

Maybe how more alcoholic. I don't know if there's such a thing as reincarnation, but if there is, I must not have been a very nice man in the last one because I work with people that have a lot of relapse history. When I think about your question, you know, the chapter working with others gives me some real clear instructions in there. I don't waste time working with someone who cannot or will not. In all the years I've been around, I only met 2 cannots.

The rest are will nots. I don't spend a lot of time talking to someone who's drunk. You know? I schedule the first meeting. I take about 20 minutes and I explain to them about the program.

And I go through the steps and what they're gonna have to do. And then I say, you think about that. 2, 3 days. You wanna do that? Call me back.

If their actions show me they don't care about themselves, then I cannot and will not. If their actions show me they care, then I must. So that's how I I do that. And I work with a lot of chronic relapses. What I what I do know about them is is the last thing you wanna get trapped by with a chronic person with chronic relapse is sentiment.

You know? And I I don't see, I'm free of this idea that death is bad. I don't know if it is or it isn't. You know, is this idea everyone's supposed to die sober? I don't I don't know.

You know, I I take what's in front of me and I take what I'm dealing with. You know, I just follow those instructions as as they're laid out in the book, but I I'm not in the rescue, fix it, cure it business. See? There's a great, great story, in, Alcoholic number 3 in our big book. And, Bill and Bob pay a visit on Bill Dodson.

And, as Bill Dodson's writing this story, he overhears Bill and Bob saying to each other, do you think he's worth saving? Now that's gonna ruffle a lot of feathers in some AA meetings where we're so interested in your issues and your triggers and and your feelings are so important to me. And don't upset the drunk, you know, they may leave. They were just is this guy willing to do what we tell him to do, willing to go to any lengths? Sometimes you'll work with a drunk and you'll want to go to any lens to recover and there's a pause.

That's usually a good idea that they're not because they're considering or trying to figure out any lens is going to look like before it gets there. I know this question is for Peter. Mhmm. Earlier you were talking about meditation when you first started, and you made a comment that when you started the meditation, your thoughts would sometimes go elsewhere. And you said that you were going to just go that direction.

And I didn't understand that. Can you explain a little bit on that? My experience getting away from that was not to get attached to it. See, I would try to fight those thoughts that were coming into my mind, and I'm not going to think about this. I'm not going to think about this.

And all I did was think about it. So instead of fighting it, I just see it and then I was told to bring it back to breath. I hear the fire truck going down the street and my first thing would be, I'm not gonna pay attention to that fire truck. What am I doing? I'm paying attention to the fire truck and I'm creating more struggle.

So, okay, fire truck, back to breath. Gotta be at work in a little while. Okay. Gotta go to work, back to breath. And little by slowly, that stuff starts to lose its power.

And, you know, how do I get to practice meditation at a deeper level is by practicing meditation. You know, the way you get good at writing inventory is because you write inventory. This doesn't seem like a shy audience, Anne, I'm an alcoholic. My question is to do with untreated alcoholism and self will. Recently, I think I've been very much in untreated alcoholism and trying to use my self will to overcome that.

I've been in the kind of, you know, the madness in in the circular thinking, etcetera, of kind of what's wrong with me, how to sort this out. And but the particular question is about it appears that my self will has been saying I'm not going to let a higher power into my life or into this problem. So the question is is is I don't know. It's about that that resistance, that self will of I'm determined to take myself to the gates of insanity and death and how to kind of overcome or get rid of that self will that that wants me dead and wants me drinking. So does that make sense?

Unfortunately, yes. It does make sense. There's a a line in the big book when when we read our instructions after the 3 inventories before we move to the 5th step. It says, we hope you are convinced now that god can remove ever self will has you blocked off from god. Your self will, you can do nothing about on your power.

That's that's what my experience is particularly with the middle steps 4 through 9, in particular, the writing of the inventories 5, 6, 7, the list and and the amends. That's where if I I go through what I call the death of self will. But your self will cannot and will not ever eliminate your self will. That's impossible. Now there's there's a sentence the 3rd step decision is made at the bottom of page 62.

The prayer is not the decision. The prayer is an affirmation of a decision and there's a little line stuck in in there that we never talk about. I think we're afraid to. It says with God's help, I can be entirely rid of self. What does that mean?

It means with God's help, I can be entirely rid of self. But we don't wanna say that can happen in the rooms. I don't know why the movement to stay sick is so prevalent. It's not a movement I participate. But back to your question, if your experience is like mine when you run into the wall enough times and like me, it it it probably is gonna take you more than one.

You get into enough pain and suffering about being driven, then you're probably going to reconsider the first three propositions. Write your inventory. Do 5678. And then that very same self will that was driving you is gone. Make sense?

Way in the back. Hi. I'm Michael. I'm a recovered alcoholic. The question is, a statement.

Yes or no. If you haven't done step 10, you haven't had a spiritual awakening. Yes or no? Both of you then. Yeah.

Step 12 says, having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps and nothing less than these steps and they're talking about our 12 steps. Step 10 says, I've entered the world with a spirit, but I need to grow in understanding and effectiveness. If I'm not doing step 10, how can that happen? It's like doing a few amends and thinking I've entered the world with a spirit of how to spiritual awakening as a result of doing, 3 or 4 amends in step 9 and I still have about 30 more to go. Have I had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps?

No. Step right up to The Price is Right. Hi. I'm calling in. I'm going to work.

I I believe I've got a a good recovery and, work the 12 steps. I had a spiritual experience. I was struggling with a certain part of my recovery I've done a lot of initial work on that, particularly in my life. And I've also been for, to see a therapist about it. I seem unable to to let go of it.

I think I know what god wants for you, but, I've been able to seem never to to let go of it. I wonder what you could have it with. I I didn't understand the question. Let let go of, of the intimate sexual relationships. Letting go of your behavior?

That's right. Is that like moral and philosophical convictions, Gloria, that you can't live up to? Possibly. See, the the big book talks about being driven by a 100 forms of fear, self illusion, self seeking, and self pity. I'm going to make an assumption here.

You are describing some behavior that you're being driven and that you do that you would like to not do. Is that what I'm hearing? Well, it really is back to my to my earlier, response. My experience with that is my selfishness and self centeredness is still driving me in spite of my convictions. So what I'm still up against is self will.

And my self will cannot eliminate my self will. I have to take it to the process. So I go back into inventory with it. I, my story is much like yours. I in this area relationships.

Lots of inventory. Lots of work. Remember there's no arrival place. In your question, I hear you think there's some arrival place. It's an inward, circular, and no place is no better or no different.

It is just different. But there's no arrival place to it. I can tell you that over time, spiritual progress. You will I I will say this. The biggest barrier to me in having any kind of intimate relationships with people was fear.

The more that you are free of fear, the more intimate you are able to be because you have nothing to lose, so what they see in you is authenticity. If you are with if you are with someone and you are afraid, you very calmly say that you are afraid in that situation. Don't know if that helped. There's a lot in the big book that says, any life one on self will can hardly be a success. And when my experience with we'll call it inappropriate behavior that doesn't resemble someone who claims to be on a spiritual path.

That there's a part of me that believes I can fix it on my own power. There's a part of me that justifies it every time it happens. Until I get to a place where, as Mark said earlier, where the pain is so great that I'm willing to have the change happen and not stay where I am, will the change happen? As long as I'm convinced that, yeah, I can give lip service to my life on and so forth can hardly be a success, but do I truly believe that? Because there's usually a part of me that thinks I can get me past this behavior based on my own power, and so, therefore, the behavior will continue.

Take it back to a drink. I know I need to stop drinking, but I'll have a double for now and I'll stop tomorrow because there's a reservation, there's a lurking notion that it's either gonna disappear on its own or I'm gonna have some control over it one day, somehow, some way, I'll be able to control and enjoy this type of behavior and that's delusional thinking based on the spirituality, the selfish and inconsiderate habits. Page 52, living like a tornado, running through the lives of others. My mind says this behavior is okay. You're not really hurting anyone.

And then when I finally wake up, I realize all the damage that caused. Yeah. Well, I wanna make, another another comment about if I ask you a question, are you choosing to act, in the manner in which you probably wish you're you wouldn't act, you'd probably tell me yes. Correct? Would you say yes?

Okay. Several years ago, I really took a hard look at the idea that I have been programmed. That I I didn't choose my parents. I didn't choose my gender, and I didn't choose a single belief system that I developed probably up through age 10, 11, and 12. And yet I here I am as an adult telling you I'm going through life making choices.

And I and I all of a sudden I I The the word driven by a 100 forms took on a whole another level of meaning. I assure you, I I've been born and raised in Iowa, and he's born and raised in Brooklyn. We got different programming here. And what I finally started to understand when the big book talks about a psychic change in a revolutionary spiritual experience, all that's really happened to me, I'm not making different choices. I truly have been reprogrammed.

But the programming goes so deep that I cannot get at it. I used to be so frustrated about that of, the moral and philosophical convictions and I could not live up to that And the guilt, and the shame, and the remorse, and I and I would say, why? I love God or I love this person and why am I acting in this fashion? And over time, that's what I finally realized, is God's gotta come I gotta bring God to full bear on that because a lot of that is so deeply ingrained in me. I don't even know it's ingrained in me.

Thanks, guys. My name is Simon. I'm a recovered alcoholic. I've come to know a power greater than myself, as a result of working the 12 steps. It has done for me what I could not do for myself.

In the book where it says we make use of religious people and are quick to see to see what they have to offer, I'm open to that and I had no religious, upbringing or understanding, as a child. However, I found a power as a result of working the steps. How do I know my question is, how do I know, what religion to make religious people to go to to make use of what they have to offer that is beneficial to my own spiritual understanding? Does that make sense? I can only answer that on my experiences that, I don't know what where God's gonna lead you, and I can't tell you to go see this religious group or that religious group and want people to to sit with.

My own experience is just removed to go to certain places and to seek out certain people. And to my surprise, I mentioned 911 earlier, the the answer I got that somehow put some of the pieces in order for me right after 911 back home was I'm a Catholic and I heard it from a rabbi. But I the thing was, I was open enough to hear someone from a religion other than the one I was brought up in, to be open to listen to him rather than shutting him down. Lay aside old ideas and express even a willingness. I don't know what what kind of clothes my next teacher is gonna show up in, the next religious person, the next book, what kind of cover that's gonna be wearing.

I just need to be open, and then I get moved. I get moved. When, I started really around 1991 one when I started really working with 1011, I was led into several different practices and or religions. It started for me I was down in a real small town in Kerrville, Texas where Chris is from, and I a Native American medicine man was put into my life. It taught me a lot about the red road and I did sweats, and I did a lot of reading.

And and, matter of fact, I still laugh because I I built a a medicine wheel in my backyard out of stones, and and I used to go sit and meditate. My my neighbor thought I was a a Wiccan, witch. And, anyhow so I I did that for about 3 years, and, then, meditation was really captivating me and so I got thrust into Paramahansa Yogananda, Autobiography of a Yoga and Self Realization Fellowship, and I did that, for a couple years. And then I had a very profound experience, one of the times through the steps, and I I wound up going to read my inventory to a Anglican priest. He asked me to consider joining the order of Saint Benedict.

I said to him, you must be crazy. I took his consideration. I looked at it, wound up joining the order of Saint Benedict, following that path for about a year and a half. Had another profound experience off that. Got moved into, Buddha, Buddhism for periods of time.

So I I have just my experience is I have been led. Now the one thing I've always I I watched people get caught up in religion and and pray themselves right back to a drink. One of the things I was raised on by my mentors and and sponsors was do it along with, not instead of, and I always have. I I was I I discovered the inner resource through the program of Alcoholics Anonymous and the 12 steps, and that is my foundation and will always be. All the 11 step stuff that I've done over the years has been added to.

And along the way, lots of books, monasteries, some meditation teachers, those kinds of things. So I I ultimately was led into those different, disciplines, and I have found them all to be fascinating. And there is so so much to learn in in all of them. You gotta remember, in AA, this is like kindergarten when it comes to spiritual stuff. I mean, you wanna find out about meditation, go talk to some dude that's been doing it 30 or 40 years.

Right? Those kinds of things. So up front. Hi. My name is David.

I'm an alcoholic. In the 10 step, it says, it is easy to let up on that on the spiritual program of action and rest in our laurels. And, but I've seen there is 2 schools, you know, what to do if you rest on your lures and, you know, your ego, you know, back and bigger and your selfishness and self centralness is back. What I've been taught a little before is to go back through 4 and 9 and, you know, the work again. But the more I work in this program, the more convinced I am that it's enough with step 10, 11, and 12.

But I'm wondering, is it just my ego that says that to me, you know, that that's the only thing I need or is it important to go back through the work again from time to time? You understand my question? I'll start off with a question that was given to me, and it went like this, did you eat today? And the answer is yes. And the reply was, why?

You ate yesterday, didn't you? And what he was getting at was the need to grow, the need for nurturing the soul, nurturing the spirit, and to continue to do this work. I was one of those guys in 10, 11, and 12, and I would go to war with you if you weren't, if you're one of those guys who continually rework the steps. And it got to a point where I was, you're in 10, 11, and 12, damn it, and that's all you have to do. And I was saying I was free.

Whenever I found the need to protect and defend, starting with God, the work, the book, it usually meant there was something wrong within me and not you. And then I bottomed out with that, and I needed to go through this work again. And I got freer than I've ever been in my life, and I'm one of those people who will also go into the work over and over again, but at the same time, not being attached to that. We talked a little bit about that. So when I get that, recently, I got that.

And I realized there were just some new things I could do with 10 and 11, and then go work with others. And not part of me was maybe looking for drama, need to go through the work to fulfill an ego need. Right? But just to drama, need to go through the work to fulfill an ego need. Right?

But just to continue to grow in understanding and effectiveness, but I will revisit the work. I'm one of those people now who revisit the work and it's been a tremendous experience for me. There was a gentleman, I heard speak recently and he was beyond adamant about staying in 10, 11, and 12. And I heard me and him, and I said, this guy is probably driven by a 100 forms in fear and don't wanna take a look at revisiting the first night proposals. Try both.

Live in 10, 11, 12 a couple years. Then go back and revisit 1 through 9. This year, when I went in and, did all my yearly physicals, my physician recommended I do a stress test and a sonogram of my heart, which I've never done before. It was a pretty trippy experience. And, so I I'm talking to him later and everything was was fine, and, I got to talking to him about what I suffer from in my first step.

And, he could tell I was very clear on my alcoholism. You mean? He said, I mean every day I get heart patients in here and they could be in here for a multitude reasons. They all got problems with their heart and and very few of them is it, birth defects. It's all been imposed by them either through, it could be smoking, it could be overweight, it could be food, it could be whatever.

Right? And he said they come in here and they're scared to death and for a a month or 2 or 3, they really do what I tell them. And then he said, they lose all connection with what brought them here. And then some of them die and some of them he said, this is a normie. This is a heart doctor.

Right? He goes, I think that that's a good idea that you stay in touch with what is wrong with you. Hi. My name is Edward. I'm an alcoholic.

Alright. Peter, you're the the the breath and the fire engines, it's certainly the way I was I was taught to meditate and, how to bring myself back and, not not resist the thoughts about the fire engine and so forth. But there's always been a paradox for me with this and that they and then some, some teachers say that, you know, you using meditation, will never work because you're trying to get there and there is no there to get to. And, and I see, also a question that isn't there a better paradox that aren't I just exchanging the fire engine for the breath or for whatever else the the the the gap, the space between words, whatever whatever I'm I'm focusing on for my my form of meditation. I'm just curious of your thoughts on that.

I I I'm sorry, but I I don't under get your question though. Specifically, what's your question? The the between, I I I'm just shifting my focus from from one thing to the other, but I'm still shifting my focus on something external. So that, potentially, my my time spent in meditation is not not going to get me where I'm trying to to to go because there, as some would say, there's really no no place to go. You see?

So, so focusing on going from the fire engine, my breath, what what's the difference? Why wouldn't I stay focused on the fire engine? I'd answer from experience that focusing on the fire fire engine works for you than focusing on fire engine. I will tell you that bringing it back to breath brings me back to a presence and not listening to what my mind is telling me. The destination is the breath and God will determine where I'm gonna go in that, and I'm real clear about that.

I give attention to this power, but I don't try to decide the course of the journey because there's more struggle. And I bring up, you know, paying attention to the noises outside or the fire truck going down the block. The reason why is because we immediately try to fight that off. And then if I pay attention to the fire truck, like you said, what's the difference between that and breath? Breath is always here.

That truck is gonna go away. And then what do I look for? Something else. Breath is always always here. And I get to realize that I'm not even in charge of that breath.

That God has given me this breath to breathe in and God allows me to breathe out, presence in and presence out. I was coming home from visiting a treatment center in Pennsylvania. And I'm in the truck and I'm driving home. I'm way out in the boonies and estates in Pennsylvania and I have about a 2 and a half hour drive in front of me. About an hour into the drive, I get filled with a feeling of overwhelming gratitude.

And it was this, that I'm breathing in and I'm breathing out and I have nothing to do with that. I have no power over that. And my heart is beating and I began to weep behind the wheel of the truck because I realized God loves me. He's given me another breath, and God loves me another breath out. And I was real clear that when the breathing stops, God will still love me.

Overwhelmed with gratitude. So the breath takes me back to that which already is, silence and God. There's a, your question's a good question. There's a story I think of. Guy goes to a teacher.

He says, I wanna be enlightened. The teacher says, well, I'm sorry to hear that. And the guy says, what do you mean? He said, because if you'd be enlightened, the party that want to be enlightened won't be around to see it. So your question really is about somebody who would be enlightened, in which case, it makes no difference if they meditate or if they don't or if it's a truck or if it's breath.

I've yet to meet 1 in the rooms of alcohol anonymous. So I meditate because I like the effect produced. Matter of fact, how many of you ever heard of the author, Eckhart Tolle, wrote the power now? I had to write inventory on him. He got taken to to enlightenment at age 29.

Of course, I I needed to read a little deeper. I he went through a lot of suffering for that to come about, but, I think if that happened to folks like us, we'd just all leave the rooms and and, you know so, but no. Your your question's a great one. I've I've had times where I took all my books and put them in the trash can and next day brought them out again. And the simplicity of all this for me now is, whatever my practice is, I just do it, and I I have no attachment to any outcome with it.

But, yeah. Good. And and I think the the the questions you bring up, meditation drove me to them. And I think there was growth in in all of that. You know, it's like I was there was almost a form of self will in my spiritual life yet at the same time in the process of that, I got so I got so much freer and I was much more effective in my life and and with others.

I heard a story about enlightenment also. The, student shows up to the teacher and he tells him, I wanna be enlightened, and I'm gonna go live in a cave. I'm gonna go to this place and, you know, not be around society. I'm gonna meditate 8 hours a day. And he did that for 6 months and came back to the teacher and told him that he's in my enlighten.

He says, no. He says, I'm gonna do something else, and he goes to this far off place and goes to these extremes. He comes back to my enlightens. Teacher says, no. Comes back about 6 months later, he said, I gave up on all of that.

I've just been helping other people. Now you're enlightened. I am Barry, I'm an alcoholic. Hi, Barry. I'm an alcoholic.

Thanks for all your sharing. Have you any experience of using mantras? I took, instruction from my early sobriety from Carmelite, and he suggested it might help. I've tried it. I can't guarantee that it actually helped.

Maybe breathing is the equivalent of a mantra. But the mantras he suggested range from phrases like over the hills and far away, you've repeated that infinitive, or god is good, or simply, Any experience, strength, and hope? I've worked with mantras, chanting, and omni, worked with lots of things. I've been open and listened to when I was moved to go do that and seek out people who knew about that. And I've had great experiences with with all of that, from candles to incense.

Mark talked about sage before. A lot of different things I've been moved to, and, none of them have been hurtful to me but have enhanced the experience. In the in the early years of my meditations, I I work with mantras, 2 of them, and specifically started with 1 in the middle of after about 2 years of meditation. In the middle of a meditation, got moved to another one. I did find them very helpful because when I first started meditating, I had a chat over a 1,000 monkeys going on.

I think one of the reasons alcoholics have a difficult time sticking with meditation, those of you who have meditated will know know what I mean by this. I would start I would sit and I had no idea there was so much chatter going on till I sat with myself. No wonder I drank. I it was unbelievable because I'm listening to this all. So I I had to develop some techniques because sitting was I'll tell you what, sitting felt violent to me is is what it felt like, so I began to work with with mantras.

I started with the word Rama and over and over and I and I'm an athlete so I got daily discipline and, did that for, almost almost 2 or 3 years and I I found it to be very very effective. Early on, I got a couple basics of meditation. Number 1, the old Nike commercial, just do it. Number 2, there's no arrival place, don't have any expectations. Got that?

Number 3, just do it. Again, somewhere in the middle of that, then I begin to have the experiences that take place in meditation. So I I brought that simplicity to it, but I but I found them to be very very helpful in the beginning for me. I'll put you. Thanks.

Hi. I'm Lisa. I'm an alcoholic. Yes. You are.

I meditated before coming into recovery, and I've meditated throughout my recovery. And, I'm not up to step 11, and I'm doing step 45 at moment. So basically, my question is, when did you start meditating? And I understood from before that I can't have the full experience until I've done 4 through to 9 or 1 through to 9 to have the full experience of step 11 that, just wondering, you know, not that it's is it wrong to do it now, basically, before I get to step 11? It's interesting how, you have a good and bad attached to, a process.

You have a good and bad attached to right and wrong, I should say, attached to getting trying to experience God. Is it good or bad if I do this? Am I ready? Yes. Is it gonna my experience has been I I was set out to do meditation early on and to still the mind.

And my teachers didn't expect me to go anywhere further than just paying attention to breath. And where I was gonna go is truly up to God. And the more of me is out of the way, the more enhanced the experience gets. And when I work with others, I I I teach them about prayer and breathing and meditating and trying to get silent in the morning, knowing that that's gonna be maybe a difficult task for them, but why deny that? And so when they're, you know, into 10, 11, 12, it has become part of who they'd be now.

It's already been internal just to enhance the experience and I speak for myself with that. I I think it's great you're you're doing meditation as you're going through the process. I wish I'm jealous. No. I I, of all the practices over the years, the one I believe that has freed me the most for me has been meditation and and, you know, I didn't come I didn't come to it.

You know, you can't hear, you can hear. I guarantee you in Denver, which is a hotbed of big bull thumpers, there was a lot going on with meditation. My ears never heard any of it. 1st 10 years, so I I think it's great you're doing that. My experience, though, is this.

Pay attention to how you experience yourself, when you get the other side of or into 9 and then the other side of 9 versus now. I think you will find that very interesting. And I hear what you're saying about just do it with regards to meditation, but, in recovery, I found that, you know, the stream of life is now full for me. You know, the daily life is packed. And I also feel that, I'm spinning a lot of different plates of responsibility with regards to work, personal life, you know, step 12 and step 10.

I guess my question is around, have you got any pointers in terms of integrating meditation into your daily life? Where did you start? You know, when did you say just do it? I mean, you mentioned earlier on about starting at 4 30 in the morning, but it might not work for everybody. So I guess, you know, any hints and tips for how you bring it into your daily life?

I I have a full life, very full life. President and owner of my own company and author and, lots of stuff. And what finally happened for me is I saw that if I was not internally centered, there's no way in the world I could work with all this. So that's when I realized, that I needed to come up with a system that would work for me to keep me internally calm in the midst of this incredible one act play God has me in. What worked for me was just setting aside that time in the morning.

Now the other thing that I do do is several times during the cost, during in the course of the day, I have an office. I can close the door at 10 minutes, set a timer of 5 minutes. I will do that during the course of the day. If it works out depending on what time I get home, I'll do another meditation there. But ultimately, if you just look at how your day flows, you should be able to find some times in there where you can get centered up.

Maybe it's 5 minutes at a time. But for me, I I absolutely found it necessary in order to, as this role that God had assigned me begin to look like this. I I just I couldn't handle it. And I realized, I I need the those disciplines more not less. Yeah.

Those of you who've been around here for a while know what this looks like. The longer you're sober, your your life, if you will, gets starts to expand, and it gets busier and fuller, and and my experience is I need more of that conscious contact to handle all of that, not less. And therein lies the struggle. And and it is a struggle. So keep looking for different ways in which you can do that.

Some other ideas I'll throw out to you, I always set goals. Next year, I've sat down to do 2 silent retreats. Anywhere from 2 to 5 days in which I will go, there's just me, silent retreat. So there's different things you can do with that whole process. But don't don't get trapped to it too much of the busyness.

My name is Carlos, and, the question is, whilst you're doing your inventory process, do you find the question is, Trying to get my words in. Do you find the 3rd or 4th column? Which column do you find most beneficial where you are now? I you're looking at the selfish self centenness. Can you hear me?

Yes. You just I'd like to explain all your views on which column you find my most beneficial. Right. You look at your 3rd column, you look at your instincts, your social instincts, security instincts, and and sexual instincts. Or do you go direct into your 4th column?

Does that kind of make sense? Okay. I'll go first. Actually, for me, it'd be both. When when I write a 3rd column, I I write a little bit different 3rd column than you described.

My 3rd column, I take the 7 areas of self, and I don't just say the word. For example, self esteem. Self esteem, when I'm writing my 3rd column, is how I see and feel about myself. Pride is how others others would view me. Ambition is what I want.

Security is what I need to be okay. Personal relations would be same sex relations. Sex relations for me about belief systems I have about women and money is me and my life tied into money. So when I put a name in column 1, and then I put in in column 2 what the actual resentment is, I write a pretty extensive third column and it is always in my 3rd column where I am playing God. Always without and God does not suffer from low self esteem.

So I write a very thorough third column, I must see where I'm playing God in this resentment. See, in order for me to even write the resentment, I have to be in judgment. I have to be God in order to do that, don't I? And then off of that, it becomes very easy for me to see where myself is self seeking, dishonest, and afraid. So over time, my 3rd column is is really been what shows me has is really busted me if you will, about where I'm playing God.

You remember the lines in the book, if my arrangements had only stay put, if you'd only do as I wish, that's what I'm looking for in my 3rd column. I must see that. In order for me to see how that leads me to be selfish, self seeking, dishonest, and or afraid. 3rd, 4th, which was the 4th, 4th. Okay.

The neat thing about doing inventory, the way Mark just described, by opening up the 3rd column, a big book says we considered it carefully, and it's almost a precursor to where my fear is gonna be lying. My how something affects my security, what I need to be okay. I need you to do what I want. I need you to do certain things so I feel okay, and you're not. Well, what does that mean if I really move and continue to move with that?

You're not doing what I want, so I'm not getting your approval, which means you don't like me, which means you're gonna go away, away, which means I'm gonna be alone. Oh my god, I'm gonna die. Right. Put about 50 names on the list and look at that and you wonder why we're drinking. The spirituality.

And I get to see fear showing up in the 3rd column, which allows me, when I write fear inventory, to take a peek at how many things in my life have been with fear. Fear. Fear. Fear. The evil and corroding threat.

And I I I like to talk a lot about fear because I've experienced so much of it. It gripped me, had me in its grip. And if I don't continue to seek this power, fear is waiting outside. And as my sponsors told me, when it gets me, it's done when it's done, not when I say so. Uh-huh.

At Alcoholic. Mark, I've got a question. You Talked earlier about the, the thimble in the ocean, you know, and, you said, hey, the relationship with God. If I spend 5 minutes in meditation, that is, you know, spending 5 minutes of conscious contact with God. If I spend a lot of time with my children, looking after my children, in a self seeking fashion, is that not a form of having conscious contact with God?

Is it merely restricted to my time of meditation? No. Thank you. I mean, there I there's never a time I'm not having conscious contact. The waves are part of the ocean.

I'm a part of God. I have all the properties of God. I'm not God, but yet I have all the properties of God. The same is true of you. As far as I can tell, what the steps do is wake me up to that.