Bill C. from Torrance, CA, Jay S. from Redondo Beach, CA and Matthew M. from Long Beach, CA answering questions at the Men Among Men Conference in Reykjavik, Iceland

Is the mic hot? Welcome back, Bill Alcoholic. Yes, Bill. We'd like to open it up for some question and answer or comments, but we wanted to close, this opening session of why do you sponsor with one final thought. What you end up talking with people about a lot when you're sponsoring guys, men or women, is relationships.

Any of us come into Alcoholics Anonymous, and and most of us, our ass is on fire. You know, we come sliding into the room, and everything is generally crumbling around us. If it isn't completely gone, it's damn close. And that's a pretty standard kind of operation. Maybe not for absolutely everybody, but probably 90, 95 percent of people, their personal life is just pretty much caved in.

One of the most powerful lines in the big book for me is when, doctor Silkworth says, they they lose touch with all things human. Boy, ain't that true? We disconnect, we unplug from the rest of the world. The spiritual path is all about plugging back in, becoming part of the whole, not standing outside the circle any longer, stepping into the circle. Every one of us tells our story.

We use some form of the cliche term, I didn't feel part of. I'm waiting for the mothership to come and pick me up and take me home. You know, who are these people that call them call themselves my parents? I don't relate. All of us say that in one form or another, that we feel out of sync with what's going on around us.

So we come into AA, and we start working steps. If we're lucky, we walk up to somebody, we ask for help. That person guides us through the process. We do a 3rd step whether we believe or not. We do the inventory whether we want to or not.

We snivel and cry about it for a month or 2 or 3, or 4, or 5, or 6, whatever our personal story is. We finally do the 5th step. We start taking a look at some character defects. And in that 4th column in the resentment list, we begin to see what our faults and mistakes are, and the change begins to happen. We make a list of amends, and we go about the process of making the amends.

And and the fire goes out. Things start coming back together slowly. We get a job. We start getting back on our feet financially. We save the relationship with the wife or the husband, or maybe we don't, but we move on, and we start establishing a life for ourselves.

So what do you talk about after that with your sponsor? What do you talk about? What is the topic of conversation? The topic of conversation generally is her or him or her and him. You know, it's like depends on what your predilection is.

You know, it's like but you're talking about relationships. You talk about how my boss is an asshole, my wife is the bitch, my whatever, all that stuff. You start talking about that. And you talk about it from a position of it's their fault, because you just don't know any different. I mean, she's always on me.

She's always on me. And the sponsor usually will turn it back to the, like, well, we're not gonna talk about her. Let's talk about you. What's your part in this? Write down some stuff about this relationship.

What's your part in this? It's my contention that when we come into AA, we're not capable of intimacy. I can't feel what you feel. I react to how you feel impacts me. I don't really feel what you feel.

And in that sense, I am not connected to you. And I don't know that. I don't know that it's like that. It takes a while before I finally realize that I am so self obsessed that there's no room for you in that equation. And I'm trying to get along, but I just don't know how.

I think when we begin to sponsor people is when we first step into the circle. You come up and you ask me for help, and you sit in my little room downstairs. And we'll talk about this later, people, about how how or why, how you sponsor people. But we begin to read the book together, and you start telling me your life. And I tell you mine.

That is an intimate act. That's intimacy. For some odd reason, you trust me. I don't have a trust problem at that point because I've already trusted him, so I know what it feels like. I've hopefully reached a point in my life where I know that you really can't take something away from me if I'm always giving it to you anyway.

What can you take from me? But you don't know that. I look at you and I say, why don't you just trust me? You're not sleeping with me. You don't work for me.

You don't owe me any money. You know, why don't you just trust me? Take a risk. And you do. You take the risk.

And you trust me, and you start telling me your innermost secrets. That is an intimate act. We are becoming intimate with each other. Would we use that term? Probably not.

You know? But there is something about it. When I left his home after I did my 5th step, and I told him things that I'd never told a therapist, and I've been to a lot of therapy. But I told him things that were not flattering, that were that I told him the things I thought these are who I really am, and I don't want anybody to know any of that. And I told him that, and I felt okay with it.

And I went home that day, and my life changed a little bit. There was somebody in my life that I trusted. You will have the experience, we have the experience of sitting in a room with somebody and telling them how they should live their life, giving them a 20 minute lecture on what they should do. They leave the room and I think to myself, that's pretty good shit. Maybe I should do some of that.

I'm put in touch with my hypocrisy. I'm put in touch with the fact that I'm a liar, because I'm leading this person to believe that I'm doing these things. I'm giving him the advice, and the logical thought progression is, and Now I can hide from that and pretend it's not true, or I can face the fact and stop lying. And lying becomes subtle in sobriety. It isn't the big lies.

It's lying by omission. Like, painting a picture that really isn't true. Okay? In sponsoring people is when you confront these things. People that come to you that you don't like, and you don't get to say no just because you don't like them.

You have to sit there and confront what it is you don't like about them. Invariably, what you find is it's something about yourself that they touch that you don't like about you. Doesn't really have a whole lot to do with them. And you never find that out unless you put yourself in that position to face those things. Now when I do this stuff, and and I'm unconscious of this, I'm becoming deeper emotionally.

I'm learning compassion, patience, understanding, learning how to love. It's the men in Alcoholics Anonymous that have taught me really how to love. Not the women so much. It's the men. The ones that I've sponsored, the ones that have sponsored me, the ones that have become my mentors, the men that I've shared things with, and then they turn around and share things back with me.

I sat and I had dinner the other night with a man that's over 40 years sober and was just talking about myself, and he just unloaded some stuff on me that just took my breath away. And it was no big deal to him. He has no secrets. He could care less what I know about him. He has nothing to defend or protect.

That's what I wanna be like when I grow up. That's freedom. Honesty, freedom. And in sponsoring people, I learn it, and I take those skills that I've learned that have become part of me, and I take it home with me to my wife and my children. And I become a better husband and a better father.

And I'm convinced the vehicle that God uses in this program to teach me intimacy, to flex those muscles, to make me a deeper person, to a better lover, a better friend, a better sponsor, a better father, is the whole idea of sponsorship or whatever term you wanna put on that. But the key to it to me is alone in a room, 1 on 1 with another human being. Nobody else watching. That's scary stuff. You know?

I mean, it's easy for me to talk to you outside the Alano Club when somebody else is watching and they think, oh, Cleveland, he's really cool. He works with other look at him. He's over there with a newcomer. What about when I'm alone in the room and I don't know what to say or I don't that that uncomfortable position when nobody else is looking. I'm not getting any credit for it or anything or whatever motivates me.

The vehicle that God uses is that vehicle of me being alone with you, taking a risk with you, and you taking a risk with me. And together, we move down the road. The key to being a really good sponsor, to being a really good teacher is what's true about all really good teachers. They are the best students. I can drop that mantle of me being the sponsor, me being the teacher, and learn from you, come to understand that it flows both ways.

That's intimacy. Matthew alcoholic. Good to be back. One of the things that I've been thinking about while we've been sitting here is something somebody shared from the podium a while back for, it was years ago. And it was about a dream.

This guy had a dream. And he was taken into a room by this person and shown this room. And there was a gigantic banquet table full with food and amazing food. And there was all these people around this banquet table, and they had a bar, locked onto their arms between their arms. And they had these spoons, and they couldn't reach their mouths.

And he said to the person in the dream, what is this place? And he said, this is hell. I said, oh, so then he took him and said, I wanna show you another room. And he went down the hall and he opened it. It's the same place.

Big, huge banquet table, amazing food. Same thing. Arms are locked, spoons can't reach their mouths, and they were feeding each other. And he said, what is this place? This is heaven.

So this section of our of our, workshop is called why. So what we'd like to do now is to invite you, now again, we are students, and what we hopefully will share with you is our experience. And between us, we've got a lot of experience of this stuff that we call kitchen table AA, about sitting in a room along with somebody else, listening to stuff. And, it's not my, wonderfulness that is helpful. It's my scar tissue.

Because the scar tissue is the strongest. Okay? So I'll be happy to share with you my mistakes. Exhibit A. And how it affects others on a global scale.

So, but but what we'd like to do is to is to ask you, if you want, ask us a question. We'll be happy to you know, obviously, we've got a little experience. We've got a couple of opinions, but we'll be happy to share with you, you know, what it is that we've found. One thing that one of my latest things, I I have a few opinions and they should be yours. One of them is one of the lies is, well, never talks about sponsorship in the big book.

Well, I'm one of these guys that I got sober with the whole book Alcoholics Anonymous. Not just a 164 pages. I've read the prefaces, the forwards, the, you know, all the, stuff in the back. What do they call that? Appendices.

Appendices. And and all the stuff in between, like I was taught, you know, when they gave me that first big book and I'm not I was surrounded by caring nurtures that said things like nobody died from lack of sleep trick. They said read the big book. Read a story each night. Try and find yourself in there.

And all through the back of the book, the second half of the book, from the first edition through to the 4th, the word sponsorship is used again and again and again. And later on this afternoon, I don't know what time it is, I'm gonna be doing a history, talk about how AA really started and some of the background and show you the line of sponsorship that comes through that before it gets to Bill and Bob, and just how this one person working with another, you know, created this thing that we call Alcoholics Anonymous. So, does anybody have any questions? The question is, if they aren't doing AA correctly in my community, do I continue to join with them? I quote from a lot of different spiritual literature.

Mao Zedong said, let a 1,000 ideas flourish. Let a 1,000 flowers grow. Who you are speaks so loudly, I can't hear a word you say. That's an old Oxford group line. And, it's by a loving example of what strong AA is that attracts people.

And as you sponsor people, what will happen is that a fellowship will grow up about you. But to stand there and point your finger and go, you weak AAs, you might as well be drunk. You're killing new people. You're destroying alcohol. It's not a good night.

How can you sleep at night? That kind of thing. All that's gonna do is get you in a little trailer, you know, with a few of your friends doing things correctly. Sometimes that little trailer sounds pretty good to me. I the trailer.

I used to walk around, and I literally had a clipboard with a list of the good people on one side and the bad people on the other. And there was a lot of chaos in my life. And, of course, that didn't change much from the way that it used to be before I came into AA. You know? I mean, I just was sober, and I was exhibiting the same behavior.

And I've I've come to realize something. Alcoholics Anonymous is a safe place. It should be a safe place. If I'm sitting in a meeting and I don't like what I'm hearing, it's my responsibility to stand up and say what needs to be said. You know?

And over the years, I think I've learned to do that in a more loving way rather than an accusatory or finger pointing kind of a way. And I and I I love the quote that Jay quoted, you know, who you are speaks so loudly, I can't hear a word you say. It's who I am that's critical. One of the questions that you get from people that are along these same lines is, well, nobody's asking me to sponsor them. You know, I'm I'm willing to sponsor, but nobody asked me.

Well, what are you sharing about in meetings? Are you talking about how your day went? Or are you talking about the solution, about what it is you're doing? Do you share about the fact that I have a sponsor, and I'm working the steps, and I'm in my 9th step, and I've paid back the money, and I'm you know? And the person that's in that room, in that weak AA room that perceived that really is looking for help, he's gonna come up and talk to you.

He's gonna say, I need help, and that something's not working in here. I'm not happy here. You know? It isn't the meetings. Controlling the meetings is not the answer.

Good question. I'm faced with that frequently. See it all the time with I'm sure we've all been faced with that. And, what I was thinking about when you were asking that is what Bill touched on. In in Bill's story in the big book, when Ebby comes to him, and he has no intention of quitting drinking that day.

He does but Ebby comes to him. There's a line in there. I I won't quote it perfectly because I can't really remember, but Ebby's whole way of comporting himself shouted that he had an answer. And I I was always I was confused. For 3 years, I was I was with militant AA, and, they no.

I would give my card to I I had cards printed, you know, and they only make them 500 at a time, and I give them all out. And no one ever asked me to sponsor them. And and then I forgot about it. I just I just did it and I did what Bill said is I shared about what these men had shown me in the solution and things that were happening for me. And another thing that I I can tell you from my experience of maybe being the weaker AA at the time is I wanted to have a good marriage.

You know. And I noticed that men in Alcoholics Anonymous weren't speaking kindly about their wives. A lot of them. And that made me think if they were sitting in a group of men and calling their wife a ball and chain, that they were either lying to me or they were lying at home. And I didn't want what they had, and I constantly review whether I want what the people have that I'm around.

So I started there were 2 men that Ajay actually knows from a different meeting that spoke about their wives with respect. They weren't always happy. They had problems in their marriages. But they spoke with respect. They never said a bad word about their wife, and they had what I wanted.

And I hung out with them, and I learned things from them. And now I have what they have. And, you will never hear me ever say a bad word about my wife in a meeting. And I'll just I know I've gotten off in a bit of a tangent. That's not your question, but they were shouting with their way they comported themselves that they truly had an answer.

And I can give you men the key to a happy marriage because one of them gave it to me. He said, Matthew, if there are dirty dishes in the sink and they bother you, do the dishes. Don't yell at your wife. They're bothering you. If she does the stuff that bothers her and you do the stuff that bothers you, it'll be fine.

It'll be fine. And I guess that's the way I answer that question is that I got it started. People started to ask me to sponsor them when all I talked about was how I'd overcome a problem, or how I was dealing with a problem, or how I had a solution to a problem. And there's a line, that might help you in your meeting if you keep it close to you. I quote some spiritual books too, and this is from Thomas Merton who was a heavy hitter Trappist Catholic monk who wrote a lot of beautiful books.

And the first line of the book of No Man is an Island is Alcoholics Anonymous' message in one sentence. And he writes in the first line of that book, if you are searching for a happiness for yourself alone, it will be impossible for you to find. Because a happiness that can be diminished by being shared is not large enough to make you happy. If you want to work with other alcoholics, ask God to send them to you. And another little aside here that I wanna say, when I say the word god, I am not saying what you think I'm saying.

I ask you to lay aside your personal prejudices. I ask you to lay aside your absolute brilliance at knowing exactly what I'm saying. But when I say god, I'm not saying what you think I'm saying. I'm talking about something that I found within Alcoholics Anonymous. If you stuck a gun in my head to my head and you said, tell me about God and make it good and quick.

I would not quote the New Testament to you. I would not tell you my favorite passages from the Upanishads. I would not quote you the Torah. What I would quote you is from the doctor's opinion in our book Alcoholics Anonymous. Where it says that these men and women believe in each other, but they believe even more in the power that brings chronic alcoholics back from the gates of insanity and death.

And this is a power that I know about. A power that I experience that is palpable, that I can feel it. You know, it was in this room this morning. It's in this room this instant. In this instant.

And so when I say pray for God to send you drunks, I mean it. But praying for God to send me drunks is not, and then waiting in my room for them to call me is not what we're talking about. Another question? Yes, miss. I was supposed to raise the women.

Yes. I believe that the question is, women alcoholics in Iceland don't follow directions sometimes. What can we do about that? Oh, yeah. We never have this Of course, men are lower life forms.

We're led more easily. There are I wish that everyone that came to me believed in their hearts that they had a chronic, fatal, progressive illness, and that we had a way out for them. But they don't. And what we have the opportunity to do is to lay a kid of spiritual tools at their feet, and let them pick them up. Now that doesn't mean that you don't try your best, that you don't, you know I mean, do it all because see, I have no idea why someone's in my life.

I'm always fascinated why anybody asks me to sponsor them because I get very, very bad cases of alcoholism. I mean, our house is just a magnet for awful compulsive overreaders, alcoholics, drug I mean, it's just if they're on my couch if they're on my couch, we've got a they've got a serious problem. Okay? Just like you. Okay?

They the men in the men who have been been in my life have done more to smash my ego than anybody except myself. And what it is that they've gotta teach you and all that stuff, and I mean, you've gotta go through that thing of trying to muscle them into it. I don't know why, but, you know, I mean, it's just anyway, so so in other words, you know, all you can do is okay. When I was 3 years sober, give them to me. I'll save their lives.

Okay? There was nothing I hated more than some dried up, gray hurt old geek that had saved. You know, if they're gonna do it, they'll do it. Well, if they're gonna do it, they'll do it. This is a frustrating problem, and I I think Bill has a has some good answers to this cause he's my sponsor and I've gone to him with your question, precisely your question.

But I will tell you just from the point of view of the person who's frustrated, that that is where I grow. Bill said a little earlier, I've sponsored people that I don't like. Mostly because Bill told me I had to. And almost inevitably I'll I'll give you a good example. I'm sponsoring a guy right now that I found incredibly frustrating.

He had some troubles. He'd been using drugs for years years years. He's 10 years older than I am. Could hardly stay on track with anything. And he, all I wanted him to do at first was get a job, which is clearly not it's not in the 12 steps, but it was the first thing my sponsor did for me.

And he was afraid. He's afraid. He's 50 years old, and he hadn't really had a job in his whole life. Sort of floated around. And I'll tell you, when that guy called me and he said, I got a job, I almost started to cry.

I was so happy. And it wasn't on my time, and he didn't do it my way. And then he got into a trucking school, and he called me, and he said, Matthew, congratulations. We passed the test. Now he didn't do it any he did nothing the way I asked him to do it.

But I love that guy now. And I used to be I used to hate it when he called. And and I'll tell you I I'm trying to just give you the point of view of that. You are powerless over alcoholism in another human being. I had a guy who came to me to sponsor me.

His name was Woody, who I loved dearly. He would come to my house. He had this grave emotional problems. He was on medication. He was in and out of mental hospitals.

I loved him dearly, and he was hard to love. And he was a member of my family in some ways. And I learned all I learned the craft of sponsorship by watching him with my powerlessness and inviting him into my family. And I think Bill will probably say this, but one of the ways you you cure that is you take them with you. If they've got 2 or 3 years of sobriety, and you're going to do a panel, or you're going to meet a speaker meeting, or you've got a sponsee who's fallen off the deep end and is crying and wants to meet you.

And I I noticed you have more than one coffee house in Reykjavik, and they wanna meet you there. Just call these people up who aren't doing what you're doing, and say, let's go. Sarah needs help. The epilogue is, Woody committed suicide, and he died. And we our family mourned him.

But I did not fail Woody. And Woody certainly didn't fail me. What I I sponsor people to grow spiritually. And and you grow spiritually, sometimes the most, when they're not easy and when they don't do what they want you to do. So I start sponsoring people, and I go to him and I say, they're not doing what I tell them to do.

And I I was shocked. And he started laughing and he said, you were my first. Well, he was when he started sponsoring me, he was 6 or 7 years sober, and I was the first guy that bought the whole package that was lame enough to actually do everything. You know? And I think you gotta be brain dead enough to really and you gotta get them quick.

When they're like 3 years sober, and they've been it's hard to get them to change, you know, because they think they know it all. And, but there's a couple of rules. Never fire them. You don't get to fire them. It's against the rules.

You can't fire them. And you'll find people that tell you that you can fire them. Don't listen to those people. Listen to us. Listen to us.

This is just my opinion, but it's a really good one. And it should be your opinion. And, the reason you don't fire them is for exactly what Matthew said. You don't learn the lesson. You know, it's not about them, you know.

You don't get to fire them, but it doesn't mean that you can't be mean to them. You know? You can be mean to them. And and I will eventually say to some guy, you don't want what I have. You're not doing what I do.

You don't want what I have. Oh, you know, I want what you have. No, you don't. You're not doing what I do. You know, you clearly don't want what I have.

I don't know why you're hanging around with me, because you you don't go to the meetings I go to. You don't you know, you're not showing up. You have no commitments. You're not sponsoring anybody. You're a fucking loser.

You know? And that gets their attention. They get they get all pissy and shit. You know? It's like, you can't talk to me that way.

Well, yes, I can. Are you firing me? No. I'm not. I would never do that to you.

I'm there for you, bro. You know? And, but I'll tell you something. What what happens if you don't fire them, if you go this this happened while I was here. It it's going on right now, this weekend.

I have this guy that I sponsored for a while, and I really had high hopes for him. I thought this guy was really gonna come into my world and and be my lieutenant, you know, like, really be there with me. I really like this guy. You know? And, he had been sober for a while, and he was with a bunch of weak AA people, and and he saw me.

Anybody usually, if you were in my community, if you walked up and asked one of us to sponsor you, you clearly have hit some kind of bottom, and you're looking for something really different, you know, because we're odd. And, this guy comes up and says, you know, I really I need to really get into this AA thing, And I've been around it for a while, and I and I really can will you help me? You bet, buddy. And we work the steps together. And I wanted him to come to my home group, and I wanted him to I wanted him to do certain things.

I wanted him to really come into my world and quit doing what I consider to be a a light. And he didn't do it. And finally, there was a confrontation. He heard me speak somewhere, and he says, you know, I don't do what you do, but I really do want what you have. And I I looked right at him, I said, no, you don't.

You don't want it. You talk a good game, but you don't really want it. You wanna be somewhere where you're the big fish. You know, you don't wanna just be part of us. And and he got mad at me.

He got really angry. He's a great big guy too, ex marine. He could kick me. He'd snap my neck, you know. I mean, this guy is and and anyway, what happened is he said to me, he says, you know what happened?

He says, I was honest with the wrong man, and he stormed off. And, I waited a while, and I called him up and I left a message on his phone, and I said, you know, I really miss you. You know, I'm I'm sorry it ended the way it ended, and I really miss you, and I want you to know that. And he he called me back, or he sent me an email, and there there's this little dialogue. Well, his girlfriend just tried to commit suicide this weekend.

And yesterday, he called me, and he's called me that phone that went off when you were speaking. That was him. That's why I had it on, because I figured he might call, and by god, he called. And you know why he called me? I left the door open.

I didn't get rid of him. I was tough on him, but I told him I love you. I'm here for you. I'm here for you. I would never send you away.

Why would I ever send anybody away? We'll get into this more on the how part, but when I'm going through the prescreening process, One of the things I say to them after I've said yes is that, we need to be very clear that you are inviting me into your life to tell you the truth. And I will use that line on them occasionally in those first few weeks so that when it gets down to the time where it's like, come on. You know? You're sleeping with another yak, and you want me to act like it's not your fault.

You know? Let's take a look at this. It's a mammal. Come on. It's kinda got that Eurasian flair to it.

Japanese twins, Nigel. Somebody ask a question. Yeah. Quick. Stop.

What about redirecting posses? Somebody ask you to sponsor a My thought is that if if if that's something clear in your heart that you think that's you that this person may have something specific, do it. But my thing is if they've been sent to me, my job they've got something for me to learn. I think one of the things that and I and I've felt that very strongly that's the guys should be with someone else. And what I will do is I'll introduce them.

You know, I'll try to, like, pair people up, you know. It's like, with this keen instrument of mind, you know, the the, you know, the it's so emotionally sophisticated, you know. And but I really I really my wife's much better at it, you know? But I really believe that there there are no mistakes, That that when they come and ask, as Jay said, they're bringing something to me. And and I also I don't know that maybe what they need to do is hang on to me for a while until they find the person that they that's happened a lot to me, where somebody has come and we've worked for a while, and then they wander off.

Quick story. This guy was coming to reading the book with me in my office for a long time, and he just disappeared. And I've you know, they often, they just, like, explode. And he just disappeared off the face of the earth. And years went by, and I was at this meeting that I never go to, and this guy behind me taps me on the shoulder, and he goes, you remember me?

And I looked at him and I go, yeah. Kinda goes, well, I'm John. I I used to come to your office. We were reading you were sponsoring me for a while. And I went, yeah.

I wonder what happened to you. What happened to you? And he goes, well, after I got rid of you and got this other guy, I've been doing great, man. I'm 5 years old. Oh.

Oh. Yeah. This guy walks up to me. This is another keen intellect story. This guy walks up to me and he says, will you be my sponsor?

I really need some help, but I think I should tell you that I'm gay. And I looked at him and I said, well, sure. I'll sponsor you, but wouldn't you rather have a gay sponsor? And he looked at me and he goes, no. He says, I don't have any problem being gay.

I mean, that's one of those moments when you're standing it's the drinking thing, isn't it? You know, it's like, right, right. Let's see. Gay is not the problem. It's it's the drinking thing, isn't it?

You know? Sometime later and now see, here is a that's a classic example a guy I figured the guy should be with a gay sponsor, you know, where they could better relate. But I don't think that's how it works. I I don't really need to relate to you or you even to me. You know?

I've got this program of recovery, and that's what you and I are gonna do together. And a lot of times, maybe it's somebody you don't relate to at all that's the best messenger. Sometime later, I said to this guy, same guy, I said, why don't you go to gay meetings? And he says, I'm gonna tell you this one more time. That's a good question, and I think that my very short answer is if someone asks you to sponsor them, the first thing you say is yes.

And if it comes clear that this redirection might be something, then you I I always feel that you introduce them and let them make that decision. But I will tell you, that the experience of asking someone to sponsor you for me was terrifying. And, if they had said, no. Go ask him. I probably wouldn't have done it.

And the if you I have gone through the whole cycle of sponsorship where these were my guys. And when somebody got another sponsor, you know, they broke up with me. And that's not the attitude of usefulness to my fellows and for god. And if you come to the table with your whole the whole idea is to be helpful and to be loving and to lead the way to a solution, you cannot go wrong. It may end up you redirect them, but you cannot go wrong.

And the other thing to remember is is that the sober friend is far more important than the sponsor, because they're the ones that they'll tell the truth to first before they talk to you. And maybe that's the person that they should be their sober friend. Any other questions? Yes. Thank you for that question.

Correct. Yeah. The question is, is there a time when you should be able to sponsor? You know, I mean, should you wait? Now I started sponsoring people when I was 28 days sober.

Alcoholics anonymous was a little bit different back in the late seventies. It really was. And it changed a lot in the eighties, and it's it's a little bit different now. But, I believe that you have the minute you oh, it's the Matthew's got a great story on that. Yeah.

I was at a men's stag meeting at a noon lunch meeting, and there was a guy we go around in a circle and share. And, they called on this guy, and he said, I have 15 days sober, and I'm coming unglued. I'm nervous and self conscious. I'm scared. I'm angry.

I'm broke. I'm in debt. I'm losing it. And then it went to the next guy, and he said, I have 16 days sober. Keep coming back.

It it gets better. Now the other thing is is that the best sponsors in the world are the sponsors, I think, between, like, 3 8 years sober. Preferably, they still smoke because they know everything. You know, I mean, when I was 3 to 8 years sober, I mean, that's when I did really I mean, I do a lot of wonderful work in AA, but when I look back at that time, I mean, it was just magic, man. I we were pulling them in the boat.

We were throw I mean, we were we were just out there. We were picking in the liquor stores and singing AAMs, man. We were we were after it. So I always say that those are the people that make the most effective sponsors. But, I believe that every man and woman that's got a moment not drinking more than another person can help that person.

And, and one of the great lines is, well, I'm not gonna be a very good sponsor. Find somebody who wants a not very good sponsor. There are lots of them at that meeting in Keprovic. There's a lot of really bad sponsoring going on, and, it's some of it's my own. You know, it's like I have done some incredibly stupid shit with people.

You know what I mean? I had a guy I have a machine shop in El Segundo, California, right next to LAX, and I I built in a little apartment in a out of a storage room over my office. And I had a guy in there that looked like Charlie Manson. And, yeah, he was just whacked. And this guy is up there, and I'm and I have decided I'm gonna save his life.

You know, I mean, I'm I'm in life saving mode. I mean, the wisdom doesn't flow through me. It springs forth from me. You know? I I've been on a 12 step call, and I actually looked at a guy, and I reached out my hand, and I said, take my hand.

I'll save your life. The guy that was with me looked at me and went, you can't say that. You know? You know? And I was just a little bit evangelical.

I just I had, like, stepped off the cliff and was down into the valley. And, I had this guy staying up over there. And I'm taking him to meetings. And he had no car, and he had no money, and and I'm saving his life. Well, one day, I decided to go up there.

This is going on for some time. I go up there and I look around the apartment while he's gone and there's empty bottles hidden in the guy's getting loaded in the apartment. So I called Jay, and I said, what should I do? And he goes, you gotta let him go. You've got nothing to offer this guy.

I go, how can you say that? I'm saving his life. And he goes, you're not saving his life. You're letting him drink in your apartment. You know?

And, you know, this was news to me that what I was doing was incorrect. Was I helping the guy? No. I was carrying the alcoholic. I wasn't helping him.

I was allowing him to drink. I've said really dumb things to people. I I've said things that weren't true to people. I've manipulated them. I've I've gotten other people to say shit to them because they probably wouldn't take it from me, and I've I've done all this stuff.

You know, I've done all this stuff. I do very little of that anymore, because none of it worked. So how do you learn? I I I literally believe the line that we had on here. If they're sick enough to ask you, you can't hurt them.

These people are on desk door. And if whatever my motivation is, if I'm trying to help them, even if I'm wrong about it, I'm not hurting them. I'm try I'm trying to help. I'm doing the best I can at the moment that I'm doing it. So to answer your question, you know, is there a time, and the first time somebody walks up and asks you, off you go.

Man, this is the grand obsession. It is an incredible journey. It's a human experience that very little else compares to, and and you're gonna make mistakes. You can't do it correctly or right. Yeah.

I don't even know that you can do it wrong. But one thing you can do is you can completely miss it by saying no. Another question? Yes, miss. Fears they they don't have any message?

Like, how do you get out of that that fear? What do you say to the person who's unwilling to sponsor because they're locked up with fear that they can't they don't have anything to offer? Again, my whole thought on this is that we have an incredible amount to offer. One of the things that we'll talk about this afternoon in the how is some of the things, the different formats that can be used to help people work the steps. And that they also can help people to be more effective sponsors.