A 12 Steps & Service Workshop in Richmond, VA

I need you here to look at good. This is the PA, Mike. Is that a little bit better? Okay. This is PA.

I don't even know. This is PA. I didn't even know where? We just until about 20 I believe the most important thing that will happen this weekend is when you all are talking to one another. So as long as you're doing that, I will not interrupt.

The toughest part of any group activity comes after any break in the regathering. Very difficult and and it's a life thing. That's just an automatic response to so many photoshoots. For 11 years, I did a little retreat in Santa Barbara, California for Monastery outside of Santa Barbara up on the hill. Lovely, lovely place.

But regathering was always difficult. And on this one particular occasion, we had a couple of professional singers who were sitting next to me. I'm not used to hearing myself talk. That's terrible. Don't listen.

And everybody's busy chatting and we're not getting back to it. And they know how I operate. I won't interrupt. So one of them went, and his partner just reflexed went, and it was just gorgeous. It just went all over the room.

It was beautiful. And, at the next break when we came back in, they did it again and a couple people out there joined in. Room got quiet and I got this vision in my head. Oh my god. They're gonna go back down into the LA Basin and say, look what Don taught us at the retreat.

Being on time is absolutely critical to the spiritual life. And I'm not talking about the clock. A clock comes from that. It doesn't come from the clock. There's only one time.

There's only one place and that's here and now. The only time I can experience the presence of God is now. So I must be on time in order for that to occur. We've had a lot of fun with that. And I'm gonna turn this over to Tom real quick and follow his lead.

Being on time sometime, it does translate down to the clock because rudeness was my worst character defect. Imposing myself into your life without asking if you had time for me or even one of me there or making appointments and meeting either too early or too late. It's all rude. So I I watch for that. So being on time is very important in human relations.

If we say we're going to do something together and pick a time and a place to do it, we should both be there at that time and place. And on time for me on the clock, there's a 10 minute leeway on either side of it. We live in a world that you can't get too precise. It's a principle not a rule. Where I worked was 3 blocks away from a place in Denver that was built to serve people with garlic deficiencies.

It was a little place called Dario. It's a little Italian restaurant. And I have a serious garlic deficiency. So it's so good. Did last night.

Oh, We dip the garlic in garlic dip, boy. It's so good that at lunchtime there's no place to park within 3 blocks literally. That's not just because of Dario's but that's part of it. As a result of mistreating this poor old body, I now have neuropathy in my feet. So there's days I can walk and there's days I can't.

And, one of the guys I sponsored came by to take me to lunch because I allowed that. Never expect it, but I sure do like it. Pay attention. Anyway, it was one of those days I couldn't walk too, too well. So we went over to my band.

He said, this is silly. You know, you're not going to be a place to park. I said, just get in the car. That's sponsor talk. Just get in the car.

We drive up to Dario's and as we pulled up, a car pulled out and I parked right in front of the place. Now Now I expect that. He was stunned. He said, my God. God got us a place to park and I wanted to slap him.

God doesn't care where I park. We were on time. That's all. And I promise you there's a rhythm that you get into beyond your intellect that helps you to be literally on time, both on the clock and within your personal life. And it's it's worth getting a hold of.

So we were in New York in December and one of the guys I sponsor in Hilton Head has a guy in New York and when I asked how we're going to get from LaGuardia to here, he said, He'll take you. That's sponsored talking. Tom. He'll take you. John Colasanto.

Lovely young Italian boy. Understands garlic deficiencies. So he picked us up at LaGuardia and a couple with us were staying down in the East Village and we were staying over in Brooklyn Heights. So we're gonna deliver them first and we discover on the way that John's never been to the East Village. He's driving the car.

And I can promise you in the east village, there's no place to park. You might as well just go on uptown. We pulled down to the corner of where these people live and a car pulled out and he parked. And so I told him about being on time. All weekend, it was wonderful watching him be on time.

Then on Monday morning at 5:30, we're supposed to go to the airport and get an airplane. John didn't there. And we're staying at his mother's house so she called. He somehow is still asleep. We just barely made our airplane.

And he told me on the way over, he said, I got so intrigued with this business of being on time, I started managing it. Tom? Thank you for that wonderful introduction, I guess. That, That I tell you, there's a buddy of mine who uses the term the power of now. And, boy, is that ever a powerful concept because history has no power.

It has value if it doesn't have power. And the future doesn't need to. If I'm living in 1 or the other, I'm almost powerless. And so it's a real, real important concept a safe preparation. This is it.

I like to sort of continue along with I would Ross, let me ask. The mic won't pick up stuff from the group, will it? Okay. I personally really like interactive stuff. You know, I think there's an absolute relationship between participation and value.

And, I might make this deal with you if, to just selfishly get a little of that. Let me just just make it available. If you want to ask a question or make a comment, and can do it in a sound bite style. You know what I mean. Not a long, long question.

Sometimes I'll get to listen to those C SPAN programs. And I swear to God, the question's longer than the presentation. So but if you can just sort of distill it and then what we can do is repeat it because it is maddening on a tape to listen to an answer that's not connected to a question. It's a brilliant answer, but what's it about? And so if you would and if you just want to make comments, same thing.

Just just kind of because we wouldn't want to hear you because we couldn't remember it. And just might make it sound bite style. But that I would really appreciate that. Because what I'd like to kind of lead us into is continuation of this effectiveness. Now, I suspect that the, that this group is essentially I know we've got some pretty new cases here, but that's the minority.

I suspect this group are people who are involved fairly heavily in the business of working with others. And, there are some real tricky grounds in that business of working with others that sometimes the harder we work, the less we get. And that old cryptic kind of comment that less is more really applies sometimes in this business of effectiveness. And so I'd like to just kind of talk talk a little bit more about that. And for that, I'd really like to get some interactive stuff in there if we can.

Now I have to warn you, I'm not somebody who milks a crowd, you know. So I I make that offer, but it's up to you to get in because when I get going, it's kind of like jumping on a running train. I mean, So just just give me a signal or just speak up if you wanna do something like that. This jumping ahead just a little bit to 19, the that first paragraph. The other one's talking about that those personal qualities that sort of earn the confidence and open up the dialogue with with an alcoholic.

And we spent some good time last night, out out on the porch chasing mosquitoes and talking about effectiveness and the frustration that comes from working hard and getting in our own way. And so that one paragraph, I'll just kind of go through that paragraph with you. None of us makes a sole vocation of this work, nor do we think its effectiveness would be increased if we did. I was sitting in a meeting last night or last week in my, in my home group. And we have a little spin off group that's a big book, just a big book discussion type thing.

And there was a girl there, a fine person, who was talking about this paragraph in this statement in the context of working professionally in the field. And and, that's that's a subtle trap involved in that because there is a tremendously important difference between work that I do professionally and work that I do as an avocation in this given for free and for fun. And and and and so this thing here, this I guess it was kind of an interesting case. You know, that I won't I won't beat you to death with the case but this this this gal is fairly new to our group and she's got some disease. I don't know what it is.

None of my business. Pretty profoundly disabled. And so when she was talking about what she did as a vocation in response to this paragraph, she talked about what she had done as a professional evaluator and teacher of drunk driving. I mean, I don't think teaching drunk driving, But she was talking about that in the context of this business about how doing this as a vocation can interfere with our effectiveness. But let me talk about 2 levels of that just a minute.

1 is the obvious. If I can't learn to distinguish what I do professionally from what I do personally, I got no business in that profession because I get nothing but trouble and cause nothing but grief. And I know a lot of people I sponsor a of folk who have worked in treatment. And the biggest problem that happens is when folks forget where they are and forget forget how to distinguish clearly and importantly between the 2. So a tremendously important thing.

Recovered alcoholics have a great contribution to make in that field. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. But if we can't understand the professionalism of of that, it's a real booger bear. And so when I'm working with somebody who works professionally I ask them 20 questions. I listen to them in meetings.

And when I hear somebody in a discussion that gets into therapeutic counseling, I know we need to go to the woodshed because it's gotten out of whack. Or if I hear somebody making a talk in it's a lecture. And it happens so easily with somebody who's accustomed to doing lectures and they start doing a talk and that lecture format comes in. And when that happens it kills the value of the avocation, the value of the gift of this earning the trust and confidence. So it's a tremendously important thing in terms of maintaining the viability and the effectiveness.

If I can't distinguish that, then I've got a lot of trouble. So it's a challenge, a real challenge. I'm sure you you run into Shelley does I don't mean to put your business in the street, but she does professional research and excellent research. But those kind of things can really steal your mind, you know, and you get to thinking analytically about what's happening here instead of the experience, of feeling the experience. And so it's a tricky area.

The other part of that, and part of what we were talking about last night, is about the good balance that makes the recovery that I practice attractive to somebody else. And it makes it effective with other people. I'll give you a couple examples. When I first got on the street and started I had the privilege it really was a privilege. It didn't seem like it at the time.

But I had the privilege of helping start Alcoholics Anonymous, restart Alcoholics Anonymous in a fairly large city in our state. It just died. And so it was a very, very busy time. And I sponsored about everybody in town. Just about everybody that was sober It wasn't many.

It was a gang. More than I could keep up with. And back then that sponsor talk that Don was talking about was my language. During that period my basic message to folk was get in the car. And if this car is full, get in the next car.

And so what we would do would be to chase around the meetings within reasonable access. Meaning within 50 miles we could usually make. And, run convoys. And that was really the deal. And I'm sponsoring so many people, can't even get to know all of them much less work them intensively.

Well then that was fine. And I'll guarantee you if a campaign had been put out to identify among those guys it would have been me. I guarantee you, Tom Ivester was the finest thing that has ever come along, the finest speaker the world's ever known. Of course, it's the only one the only one it ever had. It would have been a handy heads down victory.

But, well, a troubling thing happened. 2 years after I went into that city and and, we got a good strong group going, I had I had to move away. And all but one got drunk. All but one. Now that mean I was a lousy sponsor.

Well, not necessarily. You know, I was doing the best I knew. I just didn't know enough. And see, what I was so busy doing was I was so busy doing the stuff of getting the car or you sweep the floor and that I never did let them see what the solution was. Never did get into the solution, brother.

All they knew is that I was wonderful. And if they followed me, they were okay. Well, they were right as long as I was available to do that. But the minute I step back see what I'm talking about? The effectiveness doesn't come from that kind of charismatic cheerleader stuff.

It's about real solutions, real connection to their life, and not just being a camp follower to me. And so even though it was well intended, effectiveness required more, and what it said on there earlier about being equipped not only with experience but with having real insight about myself, real knowledge about this program, who has really found a solution and is able to communicate that to somebody else. I didn't quite make it that far. And so it can really interfere, you know, with getting that I, I'm an extremely active member of AA and had an interesting history in a way. You're talking about the young people's group that you got.

I started the first young people's group in North Carolina. There were 3 of us, and the group still meets to this day. 38 years ago, we started that that group. And so at that time, I was the youngest member of AA in North Carolina. And, I thought in the whole world because God knows I can never sell anybody.

And strange thing happens if you keep on breathing. I'm now the oldest recovered man in North Carolina. I'm the relic of the past. The only thing is that I'm still one of the most active people I've ever met. And, that has a real it's part of what we were talking about last night.

That's a double edged sword. That thing, cuts both ways. Because it's when you get a guy that's the oldest guy in the state that's as active as I am, this can have a repelling effect on people. It's not necessarily gonna be a galvanizing magnet to people. It can be a repelling thing.

And and this business of of being able to demonstrate a life that is that speaks of the solution is tremendously important. And, so I have to recognize that most people are probably not gonna be able to to to to to to to take off like I do. Important for me to recognize that we are truly different people and we're driven by different forces. You know, I'm somebody in my simplistic way of looking at stuff. I like to keep it simple so I can understand it.

I like to think that my recovery has to match my drinking pattern. If my recovery doesn't match up with how I drank, I'm probably going to find it a little wacky because that's my chemistry. That's the way I function. That's the way I am. I'm basically a kind of guy that has a lot of of compulsive drive.

You know, I'm I'm not somebody who can sit and vegetate. You know, I'm somebody who's, like Don said, mine doesn't shut down for a long time. And and and I also have to keep in mind that a considerable amount of what I do in AA is a part of my men's structure. It's not just zeal to be a missionary. It's about a very real and effective way of making amends.

And so I have to keep that in mind when I'm working with people and and and not try to get people to emulate who I am. Tremendously important because I've had so many people that that that is what we would beat around last night who that I sponsored who who said that they had difficulty working with me because it was intimidating. It is not invigorating or inspiring, but intimidating to work with somebody that's got that kind of energy and and and zeal to do stuff. So when I'm looking at effectiveness, it's important for me to recognize what is effective, what's the right agenda, how do I help people achieve their potential and not conform to my model? And that's an important thing.

Like, I was I was at a prison one night at, Central Prison in Raleigh, at the Max custody joint. And, a guy came over to the after me. Now, picture this. I'm in a massive custody joint. Guy comes over to the meeting, and he was talking a little bit, and he said, let me ask you a personal question, if you don't mind.

I said, yeah. Anything. Go on. He said, do you have to do this thing like you do it to stay sober? I said, well, not necessarily.

What are you talking about? He said, I swear to God, you're so busy. You make me tired. I said, well, no. You really don't have to do it like I do.

But I said, one thing you ought to take a look at like that. You sitting in a madam and custody pair of prison saying you don't want the kind of life I got and I'm walking the street. I ain't swapping with you either, buddy. Buddy. But but it's a sneaky thing, you know, in this thing of what it is that I could say to people.

And if I want to be effective, it's important for me to take a look at what kind of an example it can be, what kind of expectations do I put on both, and, and and does my life really reflect a kind of life that looks like sobriety is a good thing to do? And so it's not just a given that just because I've been there that I'm gonna be a real effective guy. You wanna comment about that any time? Sure. Why not?

Why not? Go for it. No. I was I was musing and listening. We only have one thing that we're supposed to do.

That's carry our message to the person who doesn't doesn't know. And then whenever possible, lead them on the journey of self discovery. They'll suggest to us that anytime we're approaching a new person, we should get into their shoes and see how they would like to be approached rather than me coming out of my my box and laying it on. 1988. I've I've had the privilege of serving this fellowship from the beginning and in the mid eighties I was your trustee at large US, which I thought was funny.

I am not trustee material. That was a good one. But as a result of that, we had occasion in November of 1988 to be invited by the Russians to the Soviet Union to tell them about Alcoholics Anonymous. This is a different culture, a different language, a different approach to things. There were rules in the books at the time that no more than 5 people could gather without a permit.

There were heavy duty restrictions. We had to consider all that. How are we going to approach these people? Now we had taken a group of them around the United States on a 10 day trip. There's a whole afternoon story in that deal.

And they told us, see, we've to be effective, I must be a listener. You need to tell me where you're at so I can help you move to the next place. If I try to get you move on where I think you're at, I'm gonna move you into the wrong place. It won't be any good. We asked these Russians, should we come to your country?

And they said, absolutely. And get a show and tell. They'll give you a KGB agent. It'll take get a show and tell. I'll give you a KGB agent that will take you around and nothing will be accomplished.

I said, you know us now and you know some other people and here's another list of people. Write us all letters and say we're going to be in Moscow on such and such date. We'd like to stop buying business. And we will confirm that. Shelley's been there.

That's how you do business there. And confirm that. Shelley's been there. That's how you do business there. So 4 of us and an interpreter were picked to spend 17 days just sharing the AA message with these folks who we really needed to be effective.

Don't want any pressure. It's just that if we didn't do the job or another 5 years, what is going to happen? Don't put any pressure on me. Millions of lives are at stake but don't worry about it. But we got by there because I I learned a long time ago there's not millions of lives at stake.

There's 1. Minor. And then when you show up, there's 2. And that's that's what we're all about. So in the midst of all of that, we got a chance to try being effective.

How can we approach this in a way First of all, I kept saying, we don't have any listened, we found they were very, very spiritual people. In fact, we had to laugh. They said we don't have any history of God. Would you like to go see the big cathedral? Now they were museums to them at that time, but they were just a very spiritual people.

We went over our traditions with them and want the comment of one Russian was you should have no trouble here. What you have here is communism in its purest form. See, they weren't communists. They were socialist republic on the way to communism. There should be no problem, with that in principle.

So we dealt with it one day at a time trying to find out how can we best serve them This was a trip beyond belief for a country boy like me. We, there was one tiny little group in Moscow called the Moscow beginners group that had been started by an Episcopal priest who was insane. Now that's just the way it was. Something else. And what he had done in setting it up, things up the guy was something else.

And what he had done in setting it up was set it up according to AA's principles. Pure and simple. They operated by traditions. There were step meetings. I remember the joy of sitting in a meeting with the Moscow beginners group and a fellow named Sasha was talking, former, radio announcer who had lost his job because at that time, if you were caught as a drunk, it was a crime.

You lost your apartment. You lost your job. You went to treatment. You slipped. You went to sub area.

You were social deviant. You got to know that we're not that far away from that in this country. Sasha's talking and it was really interesting because he speaks Russian and I speak English. So our interpreter who is a simultaneous translator, Sasha would say something and then the interpreter would let us know what he had said. And Sasha would start talking again, which gave me the opportunity since I didn't understand the language.

While he's talking, I can listen about what he just said and really think about that. Then pay attention to what he said this time. Sounds complicated, but it wasn't. He said, I had no history of God. But I wondered what these people had, spiritual power deep within myself.

And I'm not sure what they did and I found a spiritual power deep within myself. And I rose to that because that's what happened to me too. He found the power here. But the main thing was he wanted what these people had. Then we were interrogated by the Ministry of Health.

We weren't talked with. We were interrogated. We sat in a little room and the Ministry of Health was here and the guy sitting over here in the corner like this. I don't know who he was, but I wouldn't mess with him. He was watching us and he was watching the Ministry of Health.

This wasn't a friendly environment. And this guy is interrogating us for a little over an hour. And please know that because all of us were more interested in being effective than being right, we set aside our personal agendas somehow and never defended a a. You never have to defend a. You never have to defend who you are.

I just have to share my experience. You can't fault that. You don't have to like it, but you can't fault it. At the end of a little over an hour of this interrogation, the Minister of Health said, what can we do to help you get this started here? Do to help you get this started here?

Now, what are you gonna answer? Okay. This is outside of my realm. Okay. Okay.

This is outside of my realm. I said, give them space. That's all we need is space. Tom and I know that the job he and I did in North Carolina in corrections was mainly about giving space. Bumping the doors here, give them a little room or something.

Let somebody in who knows what's going on. That's the big job. The next day they had it was Thanksgiving Day. They allowed this little group to hold a special meeting in the Ministry of Health. The other thing I meant by giving them space, and this is what I must do with people I work with to be effective, I've got to give them space to have their own experience, not my experience.

You can't have mine. I need to help you create the space around you where you can have your own. And that takes a little bit of time. And it's very hard on me. I have a human ego and I have a spiritual ego.

And my spiritual ego is even harder to deal with than the human ego because it has the answer. And every now and then it has the answer. It's not a very long trip from one to the other, is it, Tom? My group. I want you to just protect me from that.

So affecting this is about me showing up, being willing to give them space, showing them precisely what I did. If you want what I have, here's what to do. That doesn't mean you have to do that. You may discover along the way, as most people do. You really don't want what I have.

I'm like Tom. I'm a busy rascal. Life is about living. And whether I'm busy with AA or Thursday night I got really busy with my favorite activities. I took my grandchildren to see Blue's Clues stage show.

I would much rather watch Shakespeare, but this was fun. I missed Steve. Steve wasn't there. There's a new Steve. As you can tell, I'm also busy watching Bluetooth on TV a lot.

I know exactly what Pooh's gonna say. One of the ways I effectively commute communicate with my 4 year old granddaughter is I can say, oh, my. And she, in her tiny, little, 40 old voice says, oh my. She loves it. That's effective.

The interaction of people is effectiveness. Okay? I can't do that if I'm judging you, if I'm deciding what you should have, if I'm deciding where you should be and what you should be doing. I just, I really my hardest task is to keep that arena where we can play together and you don't have to worry about it. Okay?

You can grow at your own pace. There are now over 185 registered groups in Russia. They took off from there. The most effective thing we did was the scariest thing we did. A fellow had written a book about Alcoholics Anonymous, a man named Shikarid, Doctor.

Shikarid. Good book. Sold out 50,000 copies overnight. They were hungry. Did you ever get to meet him?

Interesting guy. Following that kind of success with the book, the Russians hold public meetings. They did the Where the author and the appropriate government officials and everybody who's gonna have anything to say about it gets hear from the public what the second edition changes should be. That's what was going on then. And we were invited to this public forum.

There were about 400 people. Police officers, what we would call social workers, regular people off the street, anyone who's interested in this new activity that's beginning to emerge. Very positive book by the way about it. On the panel was a Russian tank commander that I had known from when they were here who was absolutely opposed to When we When we were in Leningrad I understood what he was saying. We stayed in a hotel across from that great huge 6 block long memorial to the siege of Leonard Red.

Millions of people died. And what they're saying is never again ever will any outside force come into our country and do this to us again. So I understood. That's the battle we're gonna have to overcome to get AA there. It's and and so we're fighting it.

And he's on this panel. And, he and I had fun, by the way, at the end of our trip. We got down to actually talking to each other. Turns out we could identify because we had similar jobs in the past. He used to smuggle guns into Leningrad on a tank, and I used to smuggle smuggle stuff too.

Well, the goods were different. The job was the same. And it gave us a contact. And before we're through in New York, we're showing each other family pictures, of course. He took a picture or saw a picture of my wife and he says, you should go home.

It's very dangerous to leave such a beautiful woman along for so long a time. And he showed me a picture of his wife, and I was kind. Lovely lady, but, you know, in in in fur and everything, it looked like a bear. I know she had to be alone in me. Anyway, he said to me that his concern was that he didn't want his grandchildren killing mine.

I'm not killing his. We disagreed entirely on method. He really believed with adequate therapy. In a year or 2, alcoholics were cured and could go on back into life. I just know better.

That didn't matter. We were joined in brotherly and harmonious action. He was wanting to let us try something because what they were doing wasn't working. And while he didn't agree with it so there was that tone. That's being effective.

When I can reconcile with you instead of trying to change you, I'm effective. See, if I sponsor you, I sponsor you, I expect you to drink. That's what alcoholics do. The only time I'm ever surprised by your behavior is when you become a decent person and quit drinking. We were at this public forum.

And the crew knows, and you know, I'm blib. I've I've had to live on my mouth since I was little. So I think on my feet. And if I don't have an answer, I can say something cute that will keep you laughing long enough for me to figure out what I was supposed to say. So I'm the spokesman for the group.

Now I've got a hostile audience of 400 people, and the trick question came at me. I've learned to listen for them. The lady said, how do you think Alcoholics Anonymous will work in the Soviet Union? Now there's a trick question. Any answer I give is the wrong one.

So I did what I've been taught to do here. I opened up, waited for it, and heard myself say I would be presumptuous to even have a guess. I've only been here 13 days and they applauded. We made contact. The truth was I have no idea.

But it has worked in a 144 other cultures. It just worked for me. So to be effective it has to do with taking all those kinds of risks. The only risk is not taking one. You can't say anything wrong to a new person.

They're not listening to you anyway. And if they catch if they happen to be and they catch you on it later, you can remind them how sick they were. Real effectiveness, as I understand it isn't me staying sober. That's God's business and I participate in it nor is it me getting you sober because I don't get you sober. Real effectiveness is when I watch you after we work together go find you one.

That's when I've been affected. That's the piece Bill gave us. That there were 1,000 who might cheerfully want what I've been so freely given, and they in turn might help others. That's when I know I've been affected. That's when I made 2nd, 3rd generation.

No matter how goofy they are, it means that the job I did at least carried forward. I'll straighten up the mess later. Real effectiveness means that my wife knows where I am. It's effective living. She's not afraid for me or for her.

It means my grandchildren know where I am. My 4 year old granddaughter I I know she doesn't know what a map is, but she thinks it's fascinating that I'm in Virginia. She don't even know what that means, but I'm there. About communication, I've got to listen and I've got to talk. Okay?

About communication. I've got to listen and I've got to talk. Okay? Because the real work will happen after I am dead and gone. If I'm truly effective after I'm dead, somebody like me who shows up will get the same shot I got.

I won't have changed anything, so that it becomes unrecognizable. I love you as you are where you are. That's effective. Chuck hated everybody including me, but I didn't care. I loved him.

He was much more entertaining than most of you. And there's nothing like 6 weeks of solid hate to make you think this guy's really gonna be good. One quick story on on Chuck because it affects effectiveness. I think you're long enough for me go back to the old Go back to the old I I can stress this with you. He's gonna tell the story slow.

After we had finally, after a year, gotten through the step work and Chuck began to emerge as Chuck, we got rid of some stuff. Circumstances were such that his real father had died and left him $5,000 right at the time when he needed to make some financial demands. We got that cleared out of the way, got him a little little truck, and he had some time on his hands. He'd had a 180 some jobs. He was not unemployable.

He just couldn't hold a job. Well, when you tell the boss, go screw yourself, they don't keep you. And he did that a lot. Anyway, he came to me one day and he said, there's one thing I didn't tell you. I've been afraid to tell you because every time I told anybody this, they made fun of me.

Said all I really wanted to be was an actor. It's gonna be a good one. He kept me entertained for a year. I mean, this is a drama queen. And I got to thinking.

I said, Chuck, listen. You don't have a job right now. Your men's are taken care of. You got a decent car. The other thing you've always wanted to do is go to Disney Land.

He'd never done any kids stuff. It's one of the reasons he was so pissed. So look, you got a couple grand. Why Why don't you go out to Disneyland? Take 2 weeks and drive out there.

And I know some actors. We'll hook you up with somebody, and they can tell you what the price you are going to have to pay is to become an actor. There's a price for him to be there. So I hooked him up with one of the guys we know on the Murphy Brown Show while he was out there. He was taking him around Warner's just showing him the lot.

And, the producer of the show, they ran into him on the lot and introductions went on. My friend said and Chuck wants to be an actor. Producer says, hell. We can use him right now. We need extras.

So 2 weeks after he hits Los Angeles, he's on the Murphy Brown show. Oh, it was just what's going on? What's this all about? He needed to expand into his own arena. And all my job is is to provide him with the necessary tools, whether it be a step work, a book, people, an environment, the tools so he can explore that environment.

Now, he hated God, got him into acting school. They think he's great. He really is good. His first stage play in Los Angeles, guess what part he got? He was an evangelistic preacher.

And they tell me he kicked ass and took me. So how do you measure your effectiveness? Tom wanted some interaction. Let's talk about that. How do you know when you've been affected?

What's your you've got? Yeah. Hey, Melissa. I'm an alcoholic. My question I have a question.

Somebody. Okay. Was there trouble verbalizing how you feel and still being articulate about how you think? Yes. Because at the beginning all the feelings felt the same, panic.

I don't know whether I feel good or bad. I do know I feel panic. And how do you discuss, I mean, I feel panic. Well, you come to me and you say, I feel panicked. I'm terrified.

And I can share with you, yeah, some mornings I feel the same way. Here's what I do about it. We discuss it. You can't describe your feelings nor is it even important. What you do is describe unfeeling something.

What a surprise, okay, to be able to finally sort out. We we reach a place where we can't tell the difference between the true and the false. Yeah. Panic. I'm starting to feel something.

And I don't know what to do with it. What do I do with my feelings? Feel them? You don't have to do anything. Okay.

Process them. Please don't process them. Just just feel them. And if you got to cry, go cry. If you want to scream, go somewhere else.

Scree. Does that help any? Tom, would you add to that? The only thing that, I know I had the feeling when I came in that I was the dumbest guy in every room I sat in because I'd hear people who sounded so brilliant and healed that that I mean, I felt light years away from where they were. And, the guy who spoke at my 5th meeting of AA was the first person I had ever heard put words to how I felt.

And, I really, really valued that because it sort of helped me start framing a language that I could talk about to say with. Because before that, all I felt was awful and guilty and deeply ashamed and all that. But I didn't know how to describe those things. So it was helpful to me that I started hearing people put some language to it that started to make sense. Sense.

You know, I always said in meetings burning with a desire to ask questions but I felt like it sounded so stupid. And then I finally learned that what I wanted to ask probably the person in the next chair won't ask ask the same thing. And so, yeah. But I very much identify with that whole business of of total ignorance about the condition. Some people have been through so much treatment that they sound like a medical dictionary when they come in.

They got a lot of language, but it may not have much to do with the condition. You know, it's just a whole bunch of language that clutters up life, you know, and get into a pool where I can realistically understand what it is I'm dealing with. It's where inventory starts, really putting stuff together, making it have some real purpose and real value in my life. But I think it is important to me. I went to my first sponsor early on and said, Bruce, I feel so guilty.

He said, you should. Look at what you've done. Yeah. Now, here's what we can do to straighten that up. But you should.

Yeah. I'm so ashamed. You should be. Do you just let the chucks of the world spew their hate for 6 weeks, 10 years? Not 10 years.

But you know Say it again. Do you just let the chucks of the world spew their hate for 6 or 8 weeks or whatever it takes? Oh. Okay. I do.

Yes. While they're with me in a in a separate space, I immediately begin to tell them you don't wanna do this with all these nice people. K. If that's how you feel, be quiet. We'll talk about it later.