Step workshop in Slidell, LA

Let's challenge something. K? Let's consider this in really dangerous proposition from that. Seriously ask this question. Maybe I'm not an alcoholic.

What if I'm not an alcoholic? Maybe I'm not. Maybe I've been kidding myself all these years. I'm convinced we ought to ask that fairly often because there's a worm in my head that will grow and grow and grow if I don't shine light on him every now and then. Is it possible that I may not be an alcoholic?

Well, the answer to that is let's find out what an alcoholic is. Okay? And let's see if I fit the profile. And on page 20 21, they very kindly made it very clear once again. Let's talk about moderate drinkers, and I'm gonna ask myself, am I one of these?

Moderate drinkers have a little trouble in giving up liquor entirely if they have good reason for it. They can take it or leave it alone. Don't recognize that. That's not me. Forget about that.

Then we have a certain kind of hard drinker. May have the habit badly enough to greatly gradually impair him physically and mentally, and it may cause him to die a few years before his time. If a sufficiently strong reason, such as ill health, falling in love, change of environment, the warning of a doctor becomes operative, this man can also stop or moderate, although he may find it difficult and troublesome and may even need medical attention. Have I ever had any really strong reasons to quit drinking? Well, not since the first time.

Nearly dying of alcohol poisoning the first time I drank is not strong enough reason. Going to the penitentiary at 19, I don't that's not a good reason. Blah blah blah blah blah. Have there been occasions when any sane human being would have stopped, and I couldn't under those circumstances? I am not a certain kind of hard drinker.

No matter what the reason, I cannot stop. Reason will not stop me. The threat of death, of prison, of loss of family, of loss of job, of loss of self respect, no reason that I can think of will stop me. I drank hard, but I am not this certain kind of hard drinker. Are you?

Well, we're not moderate drinkers, and I think it's really important with new people that we get to this, because we have a lot of this particular kind in AA today. Nothing wrong with them. It's simply that they were brought up short by treatment centers and said go to AA, and so they do. And they look us right in the eye and tell us, I don't need to do all this. I quit.

And it's the truth. Don't get angry with them. We're nothing but a support group. And isn't it nice that we're here to be a support group? But I need real alcoholics in my life.

Now who the hell are they? Well, let's see. May start off as a modern drinker, may or may not become a hard drinker. But at some stage of his drinking career, he begins to lose all control of his liquor consumption once he starts to drink. Oops.

No drama. Isn't that a bitch? Everybody else gets drama. There's no drama in this. At some stage of his drinking career, he begins to lose all control of his liquor consumption once he starts to drink.

Is that me? Yes. That's a real alcoholic. And if you are one of these, there's probably nothing less than a spiritual experience gonna take care of you. Well, that wasn't so bad.

A little scary. Maybe I'm not. Would it take us a little over a minute and a half? Damn right, I am. And then I read on, and I fit this profile.

Jekyll and Hyde, the whole business. Not all at once, but at some time during my drinking, I did all of these things. This one I love. Does absurd incredible tragic things while drinking. No shit.

Anybody can come up with stories. We've made if we made that the topic of a discussion meeting, we'd be here till sometime tomorrow afternoon. He see he is seldom mildly intoxicated. He's all always more or less insanely drunk. Well, that's the definition, and I didn't quite identify with that till I really looked at the truth.

There are periods of time in my drinking career when you wouldn't know I was drunk because I was the same all the time. It looked pretty normal. K? But I was drunk by anybody else's definition. Insanely so.

His disposition while drinking resembles his normal nature, but little. Well, uncle Walt, to this day, I love to get uncle Walt drunk. Uncle Walt is just funny uncle Walt when he's drunk. He's still uncle Walt. Didn't change him.

Uncle Walt loves to get drunk. Now he started drinking again, a few years ago. Doesn't seem to be out of hand. I didn't even worry my mom too much. Where's the neighbor?

They took all his booze away from him. So he called the liquor store and had him deliver some more. Walt may be working toward being an alcoholic, but his nature did not change when he drank. He was just Walt drinking. One of the reasons I drink is to change my nature.

That's what I'm going for. Don't even remember who said it was, but if if mayonnaise would have done for me what alcohol would do, I'd have been a mayonnaise a holic. Whatever it is, I drink for the effect to change. So that's me. Anyway, I identified with all those.

You can read all that. If you do consider this, this doesn't happen to regular folks. Bring memories to it. He's the fellow who goes to bed so intoxicated he ought to sleep the clock around. I have memories that fit that.

I remember a horrible night one night. I didn't do a whole lot of of bar drinking because I I it's just in my nature. I'm the one that when the fight starts, they started on me. Okay? There's just one of them in every bar.

Oh, he's the one. Hit him. So I just kinda moved through the bars. They were they were message centers and gathering places so we could go do something else. Anyway, we were at the lighthouse down on 13th, and 2 o'clock came in Colorado.

They closed the bars at 2. And I remember the horror of that night. I've been drinking all night, and I wasn't through. And it was a horror came over me because I knew I hadn't found it, and I wasn't going to tonight. And it was over.

I at that time, I lived in a chicken coop. I had converted a chicken coop, and it was really pretty cool. Claimed the chicken shoot out and it worked pretty good. Had flowers and little doilies. I came home pretty drunk, and I was at that drunken state that I had learned was dangerous for me because if I laid down, I was so drunk that I knew the bed was gonna spin and throw me on the floor, and I was gonna vomit all over the room.

I had also learned through drinking that if I drank enough more, I could pass out and that wouldn't happen. So 2:30 or so, I'm home, and I drank myself past sickness. Past where most people would die, I suppose, and drank myself into oblivion and fell out on the bed. I should have drank slept the night through. I should have slept for 3 days.

I had enough anesthetic in me. About 6 o'clock, I woke up desperate for a drink. So I have a memory that fits that clear, and I can share that with new people. And that's what I'm supposed to do. Am I a real alcoholic?

Yeah. I have never heard a nonalcoholic tell a story like that. Never. They just hardly ever do things like that. In fact, I've never heard a nonalcoholic living in a chicken coop, but that's just the drama.

Don't hammer as hard on the fact that we have one experience after the other that's negative, With any sound reasoning, would stop. If we had any power, we'd stop. Even if we wanna stop, we can't. We just keep repeating the same stupid thing over and over again. We know that the alcohol that while an alcoholic keeps away from drink as he may do for months or years, he reacts much like other men.

When I was truly sober, I was a good sailor. I did my job. I was a good radio man, a good radio man, and I did my job well. It's when I got to the beach and drank that I lost it. I'm much like normal people.

Today, I'm sober, and I go to work, and I do my job. I get home on time. I just no big deal. We're equally positive that once he takes any alcohol whatever in his system, something happens both in the bodily and mental states, which makes it virtually impossible for him to stop. The experience of any alcoholic will abundantly confirm this.

Is that your experience? I'm fine until I start, and once I start, I can't stop. It may be for a week. It may be for a month. I may take a drink on Monday, and it may be Thursday before I lose it.

But somewhere after that first drink, I will continue to drink no matter what's going on. These observations would be academic and pointless if a friend never took the first drink, thereby setting the terrible cycle in motion. Therefore, the main problem of the alcoholic centers in his mind rather than his body. Isn't that a bitch? They they spent all this time making it clear to me how abs my life depends on my understanding.

I have a body that can't process alcohol. Now I got it. I'm clear with it. That's why I caused all that trouble. Now they tell me that that's academic.

It's meaningless as long as I don't take a drink. What's my real problem? I keep taking a damn drink. Dan, is this the first time you've been in trouble? No.

Did you feel this bad last time? Did you not wanna do it again? But you didn't wanna do it again. No. But you did it again?

I even said I wasn't gonna do it again. Did you? Out loud. And then you did it again? I'd pay a real close attention this weekend, Eddie.

That's exactly what we're talking about. I'm not making fun of you. That's what we're talking about. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. Don, I have a question. Yeah, Keith. Sir, do we know that while the alcoholic, keeps the weight from drink as he may do for months or years, he he reacts much like other men. My experience was when I stopped drinking the first time a whole year, I was more sick in the mind I feel and behave more resentments, anger, rage, and feelings.

And I had not had a drink of all year, so I didn't act like normal like other men then. Then. Right? So that was the obsession of the mind that you read about, I guess. 2nd.

Okay. Okay? Yeah. These are just observations from my experience. Once I take the first drink and set the cycle in motion, it may be months before that goes away, the craving.

There are some alcoholics who once that stops, they also stop for a period of time, and they appear to be quite normal. They will not become obsessed right away or sometimes for months or years, then it'll come back. Others never lose it. From the time they took the first drink, they never lose it. It just never goes away.

It's the same phenomena, however. But this brings me to a jumping off place. The bottom of that page, Bill talks about the real alcoholic. He says he has lost control. On page 24, at a certain point in the drinking career of every alcoholic, he passes into that state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is of absolutely no avail.

The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. I no longer have a choice. To this day, I don't have a choice as to whether I drink or not. I've lost the power of choice. It's gone.

Thank god. We are unable at certain times to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago will without defense against the first drink. That sounds like a death sentence. That's the best piece of news I could ever give anybody. We are totally without defense against the first drink.

Isn't that wonderful? It's only then that my ego, which is massive, will begin to look for a defense. If I think there's any chance at all that I can beat this game, I'll try to beat this game. The almost certain consequences that follow taking even a glass of beer did not crowd into the mind to detour us. I told you about my experience on the airplane.

This is true. It did not come into my mind, period, that this was wine and that I was in any danger whatsoever. Because I don't relate to the program that way. After they got this information to me, and this was a Saturday and a Sunday, and I had this, They hammered it 4 hours a day. This was it.

So that's like a death sentence. I've got a body that can't handle alcohol and will kill me if I drink it. And a mind, it'll make me drink it. And you tell me there's no treatment for that. There will be.

Ho ho. But they walked around. I came to believe in the power of God by watching 3 men in whom the power of God was being demonstrated clearly. Bruce had done that killing. The man telling me the story was not capable of killing anything.

Ron Nichols was a stick up man. He used to take a gun and go into stores and take their stuff away from him. The man telling me those stories could not have done that. Phil Gutierrez was a wondrous human being. I loved Phil dearly.

Phil came from Guam. Bad actor. When he was 17, they sent him to the United States because they couldn't handle him on Guam anymore. Incredibly violent human being. He was doing time in this penitentiary because on his last drunk, he threw some people out of a 3 story window and enjoyed it.

The man telling me the story was incapable of committing that act, and I knew it. And I asked him about it, both all of them. Their answer was essentially the same. It had to do with, yes. That's true.

I have been changed, and God changed me. And that's why I'm still here. I came here to be changed. Someone asked me earlier what is the AA message. Part of it is change.

This is about change, about transforming change. So I came to believe that they had been changed. And if they had been changed, I could be too. It was a possibility. And they told me precisely why.

They didn't pussyfoot. Yes. I've been changed. God changed me. I'll tell you the same thing.

God changed me. A didn't get me sober. A has taught me how to make sobriety count for something. God got me sober. God keeps me sober.

I'm a heretic. I have no problem with people who ask god to keep me sober in the morning. I've never done that. I was never taught that. It's it's to be presumed.

I turned my will and my life over the care of God. Whether I drink or not, it's no longer my business. My business is to get about his business. If I do that, he seems to keep me sober. Simplistic.

The great fact is just this and nothing less. This is the AA message. We have had deep and effective spiritual experiences, which have revolutionized our whole attitude about life toward our fellows and toward God's universe. The central fact of our lives today is the absolute certainty that our creator has entered into our hearts and lives in a way which is indeed miraculous. We were reading this the other day, and a newcomer read it and blew my mind away.

Hear how she read it. The central fact of our lives today is the absolute certainty that our creator has entered into our heart and lives in a way which is indeed miraculous. Brand new. Isn't that neat? Brand new person.

Didn't know how to read and gave me a whole new world to look at. This is a living god. He's commenced to accomplish those things for us which we could never do by ourselves. I'm sorry. This isn't about just not drinking.

Not drinking is the foundation, but that's just the beginning. If you're as seriously alcoholic as we were, we believe there is no middle of the road solution. Just do or die. Do or don't. We were in a position where life was becoming impossible.

And if we had passed into the region from which there's no return through human aid, we have the 2 alternatives. One was to go on to the bitter end, blotting out the cons consciousness of our intolerable situation as best we could. The other was to accept spiritual help. I have no problem understanding how big my ego was and is when I have to be convinced that at the point of death, I still have to decide whether I want spiritual help or not. No doubt I'm insane.

Shut this up for a minute. This little period of time when this first transformation took place, and I must tell you, they continue to take place. Don't end with the first one for me. That little business we just did was a whole new awakening for me, a whole transformation of approach. I was still cynical.

Desperate, but cynical. I really didn't believe anything anybody said. I had to see them do it. I came to believe because I watched Bruce in action. He did on the tears and in the yard what he said he did.

I watched him do remarkable things. 1 night when I was locked up in my cell and he came by and visited me, I realized that I was locked up in my cell, and he was coming by visiting me. He had something I wanted. He got out of his cell whenever he pleased, and I really wanted that. Spiritual life is a very practical life.

The associate warden for treatment messed with AA one time. Now get this picture. Maximum security penitentiary, this inmate named Bruce got up on his high horse and went to the associate wardener's office and raised hell and came back in the situation to straighten out. They quit messing with AA. And I'm thinking I mean, I painted a rather dramatic picture, but that's what I saw.

He calmly went down, and he had already established relationships and all that. I didn't see that. All I knew is that this convict went and told the warden what was wrong with his prison, and they straightened it right up. K. And I wanted what he had.

Phil Gutierrez taught me how to touch physically in a penitentiary. Well, that's a very risky thing to do. Phil knew something about all of us. We're like a bunch of puppies. We've never outgrown our need to be touched.

I don't know why. I don't get into speculation. We need to be touched. It's proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that babies who are touched a lot grow healthier. They're fatter.

They're happier. They're brighter. Everything about them is better. They just touched a lot. And I've never outgrown my need for that.

K? And Phil knew that. He was the most gentle human being I've ever met in my life. This is the guy that was throwing people out of the windows. Funny story.

He came to me one day and says, you know, I've just realized. I've been in this penitentiary 7 years, and you're the first guy I've ever really sponsored. You will stay sober. This is the guy that's throwing people out of the windows. Funny story.

He came to me one day, says, you know, I've just realized I've been in this penitentiary 7 years. You're the 1st guy I've ever really sponsored. You will stay sober. I lived up on the 4th tier and I knew his story. Phil did what he said.

I particularly like Roy Nichols because Roy got pissed today every night and quit. Very spiritual guy, But our little group had about a 100 members in it. And there were maybe 10 or 15 of them that meant business and the rest of them were using it for political things. And it just it threatened me and really pissed me off and frightened me. And and I was told not to be at least a bit concerned about that as to who meant business and who didn't.

Bruce said, do you? Said it doesn't matter what anybody else does. What do you do? Doesn't matter what anybody else says. He said, in fact, I'd suggest to you these guys that are up there at the podium lying, they're at least reading the big book which is what you need to hear anyway, so shut up and listen.

But Roy was real. He'd get irritated. I quit for a couple, 3 weeks, standing still instead of going to the meeting. Pout. I thought he was pouting.

Finally caught on to what he was doing. He was pausing. He was writing inventory, and he was trying to clear out of his mind the things that would keep him from going just because he didn't like it. But he was also honest. When he didn't like it, he didn't go, then he'd come back.

We weren't allowed to chair for a year. I had to do the 12 step study school, but at the real meeting where they let real people in from the outside, we couldn't go for 5 weeks. And when we did, we couldn't share for a year. You had to earn that. It's a big deal.

We were self supporting. The outsiders who wanna put money in our kitty, we made 10¢ a day, and by God, we were self supporting. I learned some things from them. I wanna say I learned them, I watched them because I was cynical. I saw they did it.

I stuck around and saw they actually did what they said they would do. Funny shift came because before I left, I can remember I used to go by and visit Bruce when he was locked in his cell. They let me out and I'd go visit him when he was locked in. And it always struck me as kind of strange that we'd have that going on. I stood in the dish room of the penitentiary.

I was in I worked in the dish room the whole time. Just musing one day in the midst of this process And the the mess hall of the penitentiary is the most dangerous place on earth. That's where it happens. That's where everybody's congregated. That's where the tensions, if there are any, are going to erupt.

It's a dangerous place to be. So they have catwalks and in Canyon City, they had catwalks and guys up there with submachine guns. And on the doors was the goon squad. The goon squad is simply made up of the kind of people who really enjoy hurting other people. That's who they put there.

That's why they put them there because not everybody in the penitentiary is innocent. There's some bad guys there. Anyway, I'm musing on this and the executioner is on the door. The line's coming in and he's on the door. And this was a strange creature.

He was round and bald and had big ears, and when you looked into his eyes there was nobody home. He really enjoyed his work, and I'm thinking isn't this awful. Here's this guy over here, and every now and then they say to him, you take this guy over to that green room and kill him. And he does it, and he comes back and he has lunch. It doesn't efface him at all, and he's in charge of my life.

And the thought hit me, yeah, but who brought you here? And I got some real freedom from that. And my mind changed, and I got to where every time I saw him on the door, my thought was isn't that nice? They've got him locked up for at least 8 to 10 hours a day. The community is safe for 8 to 10 hours a day.

See, my job is to be invisible when he's around. It's just a little thing, but the changes that take place are real in thinking. Oh, we have so much to do. What do you wanna do? Oh, you want the questions asked.

Yes. What about going to the same group for years? Can we become stagnant? Do we just join another group? Why are you asking me that?

Of course, we can become stagnant. Working with new people is what keeps me from being stagnant. My my personal experience, let's just go on that. There's no answer to this. No pat answer.

My personal experience has been a strange one because in the very beginning, my home group was a prison group and I had to leave it To become a true living member of my home group, I had to leave it. It's the only way I could be a success. For whatever the reasons, I've never been able to stay in a home group for more than 4 or 5 years, and in circumstances such like moving to another state or whatever have shifted me. Somewhere along the way, I stopped being a member of this particular group and became a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. Okay.

It was about my 5th year of sobriety somewhere. And as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, I have a home group. Don't misunderstand me. I've told you about them. This is my base group, but I'm not dependent on them.

I belong to Alcoholics Anonymous. This weekend, I'm a member of the strange camel group. I'll go home and tell my home group all about you guys. I'm not sure. Is that is that what you wanted answered?

Because there's no answer. I sometimes have yearned to be a member of a group like some of the old timers I know that have been there 20, 30 years in the same group. It's just not been my experience. If you're doing a group big book study and a new person comes in, do you just continue where you are or what? We keep right on going.

There's different views on that. Some of the folks that I sponsor when they start a big book workshop group, after the 3rd week, they close it. I don't. I've never seen anybody damaged by any piece of information this book has to put on at any time. I'm not in charge of who sends them or when.

I'm just supposed to be there when I get there. Yes, sir. And we continue on. One of the things I noticed early on in in the street AA was that we've been in a group where they'd be doing the steps since a new person would come in, they'd break it off and go back to the beginning and start over, and they never got past the 3rd step. And, so that's my experience, what you all do with it.

I don't know it's successful both ways. I don't care who shows up or when. I never do an alcoholics only big book workshop either. Whoever shows up, I don't care. Why in the world should I care?

The one I'm doing right now on Thursday morning was set up by Al Anon. So we have A's, we have Al Anon's, we have CAs. We sponsor CA in Denver. That's why it's strong. We don't have much of a drug problem in our meetings.

We took them through the steps and sponsored them so they got strong and now they don't have to come to us anymore. They got their own thing going. Same person has written 3 notes here. Now this are you doing that? I'm I'm an old forger and I recognize writing.

Did you do that, buddy? Where is that rascal? Anyway, what do you do when you're working with someone who whines all the time, won't take any suggestion, goes and ask their therapist about what's been suggested and come back and tells me their therapist says not to do it. All I suggest is they might want to work with somebody else. If you want what I have, you do what I do.

And if you don't, go work with your therapist. I have no luck on the truth. But I don't waste any time with that stuff either. I'm not in a debating society. How involved should a sponsor get in the sponsor's personal life?

Relationships, job, family life, and so on. That's a serious question. Give me a minute. I've got 15 answers. How involved do I get in my sponsee's personal life is the only way I can answer that.

Very damn little. I get deeply involved in the step work and I get deeply involved in sharing my personal life. My involvement is usually if you're having trouble at home, whose fault is it? If you're having trouble at work, what aren't you doing at work that's causing you to have trouble at work? That's the kind of involvement I get.

I really don't like to get involved in all the drama. I think that's what you're asking here. I try to avoid the drama. You can't always avoid the drama. On the other side of that, there are times when we've held each other's hands and cried.

And I've spent the night with people and let them spend the night with me. But, I'm just not smart enough to know what's right for you. I'm just not. I got fired last month. I love it when they do that to me.

We were doing fine till we got to the 4th step, and then his wife started treating him wrong. And, I started saying, well, that's good stuff to write about. And pretty soon he was was bogging down and all he wanted to do is talk about how badly she was treating him and I kept saying write about it. And then he called me from the restaurant about 9:30 at night and said, the way she's treating me tonight at this restaurant, I feel like drinking. And all I could think of to say was, well, that's what you ought to do then.

And he called me the next day and fired me. He needed a little different kind of sponsorship that I offer. I will not be held hostage by your threat of drinking. That's not what I'm going to get involved in. Had one call me when not years ago.

I get the psychopaths. I really do. 2:30 in the morning. I'm getting ready to go over to a bitch's house, and I'm gonna burn it down. Thank God it's 2:30 in the morning.

I couldn't think. I just quickly prayed. Oh, what do I tell this one? And heard it come out of my mouth. I said, you son of a bitch.

You woke me and my whole family up to tell me something I could've read about in the morning paper. I hung up on him. Surprised me. 7:30, he come tromping up to the front porch all contrite to apologize to everybody for getting him out of bed. Which leads me to my real answer to that.

It's all about prayer. Each circumstance is different. I got so involved in Chuck's life for a year and a half, I made his decisions. It's completely contrary to the way I sponsor. But he had nobody else.

Friend of mine now, I think for the last 2 years, I have had to bite my tongue to keep from telling him get out of that leave home pack. Whatever he had to do. Get out. I won't tell him that. If he ever asked me and he did last week, do you think I'll leave?

I can say, yeah. Okay. So, there's no answer to that. Is that answer that no answer okay? Yeah.

Okay. I don't know. My troubles are my own making. Yours must be too. Let's find out what it is you're doing.

Oh oh, Tom O'Sullivan had a thing. I stole from him because it's beautiful. He said, we don't have any answers here in a. We don't. If you want answers, go stop any stranger on the street, tell them what your problem is, and they'll give you an answer.

What we have here is a solution. If you'll get yourself involved deeply in our solution, you'll find your own answers. So that's the answer to this question. I will help you into this process in in the prayer and meditation so you can find your own answer. I don't know what you need.

What about antidepressants? What about antidepressants? Where's the line of alcohol? Oh, this we covered that. Do antidepressants erase our need for God?

I don't know. I can tell you this from what I have seen. This is purely my observation both as an AA member and a professional. One of the most dangerous drugs on the market for alcoholics is Prozac. I can just tell you that people that I have had contact with using Prozac cannot work the program.

I won't I do speculate why I won't hear today. It cuts them off from something. I don't know what it is. It just doesn't work. I will never tell anybody get off of the Prozac.

I'm not a doctor. I'm just telling you that I have seen you can't serve 2 masters. Right. I also know people who do have to take certain other kinds of medication. Genuine bipolar better have his lithium.

That's that's that's a body solve. I don't have any problem with that. I had learned that the hard way. Things that keep me from feeling bad, I'm suspicious of. Because then I get relief instead of what I really need.

Does it cut me off my need for God? I don't know. I do know that those I have talked with are cut off from God. Whether it's because of the drug or their own attitude, I have no idea. I just know when we reach this point of surrender at the 3rd step, they can't do it.

That's all I know. So I don't work very much with them. I sponsor a guy who's a professional who who gives it to him all the time and he and I disagree heartily. He believes that sometimes by taking the antidepressants, they can get through the steps. That's just not my experience, but I'm not a doctor.

I also have a very dear friend. She's 12 years over now. She's had an awful time. She's spiritually fit, but she's had an awful time being disassociated. And did you ever have a time a day or a moment in your life where for whatever the reason from the inside out you couldn't hold on to something?

It just kept slipping And then you drop it, and then there's that baby rage that hits. She was like that most of the time. Spiritually fit. A few months ago, after 2 years in therapy, she and her doctor worked out a specific medication that seemed indicated. I talked to her the other day and she says for the first time in her entire life, she's feeling what she thinks must be normal people feel.

She's fine. Has not disrupted her spiritual life. There's a chemical missing somewhere in her and now it's not missing. Who am I to judge? But the antidepressants, there's nothing like a good case of depression to get an alcoholic off his ass.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Particularly if he's well sponsored. If I love you, I will let you find your own path.

If you you want what I have, do what I do. I do not take antidepressants, and I suffer from some physical maladies that cause deep depression. I don't have to suffer from them. On those days, I pray for the strength to get up and go to work because I don't wanna go. And I pray that I not be nasty to anybody because that's how I feel.

I just won't be nasty to everybody. And I love you, but leave me the hell alone. Yeah. And for God's sakes, don't try to cheer me up. I will eat your face off.

You'll never see that, but that's how I feel someday. And I could get relief from that. I know several medications I could take that would stop that. No. I don't do it.

There are days when I'm sure she wished I did. Not often, but every now and then. I am absolutely the most pitiful person you've ever seen when I'm depressed. I'm willing to share it with everybody. I don't do this.

I do this. Alright. Can I get you in there, honey? Anyway. I'm going to suggest that this evening, this group will probably be ready to take the 3rd step as a group.

Don't know for sure, but it appears to me we're headed that way. The suggestion in the big book is you think well before taking this step. And there's a reason for that. Once you take it and meet it, you can't get off. Think well.

I love doing it. I also have had experiences where it's so funny because everybody says, oh, yeah. We're ready. Until just before we're ready, and then we have 2 hours of discussion before we can get it done. So think well.

I because then we can really move on through. I'm getting to where I'm wandering, and I think it's time to shut down now for a bit. But let's think about that. We'll take the 3rd step tonight and then we can really move through some of the work stuff. I'll give you some views that I have and some methods that come right out of the big book if you'd like.

Okay. Anybody else have a question? This is question time. Yes. I work with the as I mentioned to you earlier, this morning you said that I had to bring it up with the question.

Over a correctional. So in this you know, as you said, there's a lot of lot of people that are there just for politics, to get their pass, to get whatever it is. You know? And there's some people there that are really trying to do something. And they're afraid to come up and ask myself or the other guy that goes over there to go over there together about the last year and a half.

And they're afraid to come up and say, you know, hey. Help me with this 4th step, or I'd like to do a 5th step with you. And and I could see that in your eyes, you know, because I was told that, you know, after you've been around a program, you're looking to someone's eyes, you need to see if there's anybody home or not. How how do you how do you go about doing that since you since you're over there all the time, you know, around those type of folks? How do you get over with the how do you do something with them to get them over this peer pressure, this this fear?

What you know, I'm not looking for magic words. I'm looking for a method. I I I listen. How do you get around that, Donald? There came a time in my life when I had to take a stand that either got us everything or nothing and take that to the street.

If there were no risk involved, there would be no gain involved. The only real risk in not doing it is that I may die. A very ugly death. And if the concern of being liked by people who aren't worth worrying about is more important in my life, then it's over. Take a stand.

I'll help you with your 4 step. That's what I do. I'll help you with this step. I came from the background where they gave us cat calls every time there's a meeting. Drunks and junkies downstairs.

There go the drunks. There go the sissies. You take a stand or you die an ugly death. And there's no simple answer. It's cold blooded as hell.

Either do it or don't. I asked that because one particular one particular guy there is, I mean, this is his 3rd time in prison in the last 18 years. Mhmm. And his son is 17. And he's seen him for 1 year in in the last Mhmm.

You know? A total of 1 year in the last 8 17 years of his life. He's he's seen his son. And he wants to do something about it. And You know, a lot of it's a lot of it's fear.

My experiences taught me that when the guy takes a stand everybody backs off. They really do. The most mean spirited people of all will back off when you really take a stand for something. I don't care what anybody thinks about what I do. My life's at stake and I'm gonna do it.

Period. You can't stop me. I'm gonna do it. I got free in a penitentiary. You can't take away my freedom ever.

Okay? An inside job. You can't beat me hard enough to make me give it up. You can't lock me up. You can't do anything.

Where I am, God is. And I've got to trust that before that experience. And if they want to do a 4th and 5th step, we've even gone so far as to go to the warden and get a special time and a special place set out so that we can do that. And the administration will go along with it. I I don't know.

I just push it. I just take a stand. No. What did you mean when you said that you sponsored CA as a way of trying to deal with the drug problem and Well, the folks from from CA, the drug addicts and the overeaters and a number of others, nonalcoholics, were inundating our meetings for a while. That's a problem.

K. I am convinced that the steps, the program, the path to god will work for anybody as long as the foundation is truth. So what we did was take some of the guys from the cocaine addicts and sat down with them. First found out whether they were or were not alcoholics And if they weren't, then we can work the steps based on their cocaine addiction. We leave that booze behind.

You can leave the cocaine behind too once we've got the problem cleared, then they went through the steps and awakened. Had the same experience I did. And began then they were coming to our meetings because the CA meetings weren't strong. They didn't have any substance. Well, now they've got some substance, and they sponsor the same way.