The topic of "Working with others" in Budd Lake, NJ

Folks, thanks very much. I'm Tom Ivester, an alcoholic. Hey, Tom. You know what bad news? A guy starts drinking before he even starts talking.

I've been looking at that water the whole time I was sitting there. Thanks, Doug. Thanks for that history. I I appreciate that. I I appreciate oh, by the way, let me tell you, my home group is, it's a synonym for the working with others group.

I belong to the primary purpose group in Southern Pines, North Carolina, And I was rather gently nudged into Alcoholics Anonymous, February 2, 1957, and, and it took. It took. And I'm still here. Swear to God, I don't think I'll ever come to the place that I believe that that happened and that is natural and that is real and it got a chance of lasting. In a way a guy that like me could could stay sober that long.

But I don't know if it's gonna stay stay sober that long, I think I ought to quit. That's a that's a long time. I, wanna congratulate the the group on the 4 good years and also the color scheme. I you know what struck me? These folks went so far in decorating the room that they had a book printed to match the decor.

That's great. That's just great. I really do do appreciate seeing groups celebrate anniversary because not all groups do. And and I just somehow think when we take it for granted that that another year, is just a routine sort of a thing, we run into some jeopardy about letting it get a little weakened down. And so I I really like to make a big deal out of that.

I I believe in celebrating personal anniversary anniversaries. I know some folks who say they they don't celebrate anniversary because they think it's an ego trip. And I always tell them that the only way it's an ego trip is if we think we did it. And if we don't think we did it, then it's what that's a recognition of what's so true that this truly is a we thing. And when we celebrate, we celebrate together and we acknowledge together that this dude works.

And it's kind of important. I I'll tell you this one little story before I get going with, drinking and throwing up and stuff. That that that just sort of brings to mind. I I was, so I spoke I was speaking down in Lumberton, North Carolina when I if you ever drive to Florida on 95, you go past Lumberton, and, if you're a thinking person, you better keep going. That don't don't stop.

I was speaking to a group there, and a young fellow came up to me after the meeting, and he said, I really wanted to talk with you because I heard you last week in Pennsylvania. And I said, well, it's okay now. I don't speak at every meeting. It'll be okay to come back some more. And he said, no, it's not that.

He said, you mentioned when you spoke that it it had then been 30 years and that you had been sober since your first meeting. And he said, I can't begin to tell you how important that was to be. And and here's what he shared, and there's one reason that I never I never tell share my experience, promised I never would after he told me that, about about being able to stay sober. He said I was actually beginning to think something was wrong with me because I was still sober from my first meeting. Because it looked like everybody that had any sense at all was in and out like a yo yo.

And here wimpy little old me staying sober. And I thought, my God, how important that is because I'm not unique. Many of us many of us are able to come in and for whatever reason are able to grab hold of this thing and hang on to a brand new way of life. And I think that's enormously important because it does give the hope, it does give the the the the the clear example that this thing can work. I personally think that slips are an aberration.

That that that if I work real tight and close, I personally have never seen anybody go out and drink because the OD don't steps. Never have. Never seen anybody because they wore out on service. What I've seen is people who UD, you know, who underdose on those things who get into trouble. And so I think there's a real close relationship between the the the the intimate involvement in doing the actions laid out in the program as success.

And and so I'm just absolutely delighted that that experience and delighted to be here with you. And I do congratulate the working with other group on the on the anniversary. I I could spend this whole meeting just sort of eulogizing the program and greeting old friends. I've got a lot of good friends in this in this group here tonight, and it's great to see all my buddies. It's great to see a lot of people that I don't know.

Maybe even better. We'll get to get to make some new friends. But that's not what we do. We're not here to eulogize. We're here to do a lot of bad breaking.

Try not to do too much. One other thought that will kind of bracket what I wanna what I wanna, I guess, the way I wanna approach this thing. Sometimes I think you know, along that same line of of, you know, of of what is it and and I can't answer the question, but what is it that causes us to have such radically different, experiences in this program? There are indeed some, some, who are able to grab onto that brass ring of sobriety when they first come in and hang on to that sucker for the rest of their lives. That's a very legitimate experience that happens to a lot of people.

There are others of whom there are many who grab it and lose it and then suck it up and come back and grab it again, and sometimes again and again, and sometimes some of these will grab it and hang on to a new life. And there are some who never do. Some some the decor was about destroyed. Some who never do, and I don't know what the difference is. I I guarantee by the time I get finished here tonight, you will know that mine is not based on merit or deserving or character or anything like that.

I don't know what makes the difference. But I like to think about that because I never want to get to the point that I take for granted what has been given to me. And and I count myself a tremendously fortunate guy to have been able to hang on to this thing, and you'll understand more why when I when I get into that. I also think that I'm the most rewarded man in the United States of America. And, and so that's really what I wanna talk about is the the unlikely nature of being here and and and staying here and then the payoff that comes.

And I wanna talk about group a a a little bit too. So that's a bit an ambitious agenda. I I don't really know why why I'm an alcoholic. Don't even spend much time thinking about it because what I found out is that it doesn't really matter. It's interesting to consider and you can get all kinds of theories.

They are theories are a dime a dozen. Some of them I like, some of them I could care less for. Some that is psychological, physiological, environmental, chemical, on and on and on. There's one theory that I'm kind of fond of that is that alcoholics just tend to not be like average people. That we tend to be a cut above just the average walking around person.

We tend to be a little keener, a little sharper, quicker on the uptake, a lot more endowed with creative ability and and we just almost explode with all the talent that's just aching to get out. Some of you would say that we may have a slightly larger brain than the average person. I heard that discussed for almost 46 years. Nowhere except in alcoholic synonymous. I never heard anybody over at Princeton researching the incredible alcoholic mind.

But that's a great theory, you know, that that, and I'll only mention I don't know if I'll come back to it or not, but you hear that word potential, it's probably not a single alcoholic in this room who hasn't been beaten to death with good God you've got such potential. You could be such a winner if you just didn't drink so much. And, and I tell you, I've come to believe that in a way. Maybe I'll get to a little of that. So I don't really know why.

I think it's the army's fault, really. I I went in the military when I was just a kid and, got off to a decent start, went through training down in South Carolina. Hated it with I I love the army for about 30 minutes. And, then I met the first guy in charge and and I swear, I don't want to roll that cretin. He he we were going through getting issued army uniforms.

I didn't particularly like them anyway, but they were gonna give us some, and they gave us an item that I didn't recognize. And I said, what is this? Pajamas? Well, that's a bad mistake in in Uncle Sam's army. They may wear them now, but they didn't then.

And so he took the opportunity to demonstrate his prowess. So he said, did you hear what this yo yo said? Talking to 200 people. And of course, nobody did. It was him.

He said he wanted to know if this was pajamas. You know, well, it was Long John, what it was. And, he said, what do you want next? Lace panties? And it went downhill from there.

I didn't like it. I went through training with a 1,000 guys and was picked out as one of the 5 outstanding men in that in the folks that went through that. And and when I was picked out, I knew that that was a dumb selection. I I knew that was a bad selection. I was an 8 baller, the first order.

I made Gomer Pyle look like sergeant York. The old sergeant York, not Ollie. No. That's north. Anyway, they and they picked me out.

And because I had such outstanding traits, they were gonna let me go to leadership training and then in the OCS to become an officer. I knew that was a goof. And shortly afterward, they knew that was a goof. And that's why I started boozing, soon as I found town, and the true Tom showed up. And, rather than going to, officers Canada School, I wound up being stationed in Alaska and the Aleutian Islands for 25 months.

Wonderful, wonderful place. Makes New Jersey look like Key West. And I thought I was in Key West today. I was expecting to come into a blizzard, landed in Newark, and I said literally said to myself, my god, the guys got lost. This ain't New Jersey.

And, thank God for good weather. Till I wound up up there. Didn't like it. I'm telling you I was a miserable cat. I didn't like anything about that place.

I had that duty out in the Aleutians. And here I am, a fine young American who had gave his life for his country, and I'm stationed on a frozen rock, out in the middle of the Bering Sea or something. I don't know what it was. It was cold. That's what it was.

And the only place I've ever seen where it snowed sideways. It didn't fall like decent snow. That sucker came right flat into your face and anyway you turn. Oh, Jesus. And I'm standing out there with a gun guarding the thing.

And what for what? I I mean, she I had some Russian come over to steal the rock. I'm supposed to shoot him. I guess I I'd have helped him load the thing up if he wanted to go. I if you let me go with him.

Well, now that's what aggravated my condition. That's the reason I say the army caused it. I I don't think they caused it, but I I learned the words has been exacerbated. I think it exacerbated the problem that it made it, speeded it up in my case, I think. I I think it probably, sped sped my progression about that 10 years.

Because somewhere it I solved the dilemma of being in a place like that, the way I solved a lot of the dilemmas. I got drunker than a billy goat and tried my level best to stay that way. I'd come up from air once in a while, but I didn't stay long. Because, man, most of the time, I didn't know if I was in the Aleutians or Hawaii. Didn't much care, you know, because I was unconscious a lot.

And I think that did speed it up. Now we had a bunch of folks who were the kind of pure of heart, you know, the you're the kind that, I mean, it fine. I'm one of them now. But the kind that get out and walk even ain't going nowhere. I mean, they just get out and walk to walk, climb mountains.

For what? Hunt stuff. God knows it's hunting us. Most of the time, they get out and hunt the stuff. Climb glaciers.

I mean, pure folks you'll eat we didn't have yogurt, tofu back then, but they ate stuff or whatever it was. We shipped a whole boatload of them home one time talking to themselves. Went crazy as a bed bug. That is no place to be sober. Nobody got to be bitter sober up there.

The old drunks are laying up there fat and happy. They so I think it's speeding it up. And that and that's that's sort of was characteristic of my life. I just sort of sort of took off. I I got I I just got into a pattern of screwing up everything I touched.

I I thought when I first got an a, I must have been born alcoholic because I acted like one. First time I ever drank to the untrained eye, it would appear that I drank too much, But I always thought I drank just about the right amount. All I could get. It just it and and and I really don't think I was born alcoholic. I might have been tilted in that direction, but I think there are some things have to settle in for alcoholism to become a a a very real illness.

As I think what I was, I was a guy that was a a sort of a miserable cat. I didn't fit well in the world. I I was uncomfortable around people. I didn't relate well to folk. I was a very isolated guy.

And and, I always resolved those conflicts by acting the opposite. And so when I drank, man, I was like a guy. Don't no mystery why I drank. It freed me from the prison of my life and let me come out and have a good time. It let me play with anybody.

And and, I just absolutely loved the feeling of of the freedom that came, that relaxation, that that that comfortable thing that came. I love the style. I I I took up drinking as a way of life. Anybody was an alcoholic or not. I just like the drinking environment.

I love where people drink, how they drink. I like what they did when they drink, unless they did it to me. And, some of that, well, it was a strange kind of a deal. Loved it. Loved a smoky jazz club on on.

A well, shoot. I could I've talked myself into it if I get to relive it. I I just loved it. I I was just a natural kind of a thing for me. And I I tell you, I would be doing that today had it not been for one thing.

I developed alcoholism. It occurred somewhere during that foggy period up in Alaska and the Aleutians. Don't know when. And never had a clue about it until I was sober and alcoholics anonymous, but when it started to become clear to me that something had happened that that that that put me in trouble with booze, I was sober in AA for a good while. I never had a clue about that until until until I was here.

But I when I look back, I could recognize that even though it was a foggy picture, I could see that at some point, I experienced what we call crossing a line. You don't find it written anywhere. It's just sort of an old saying that's come up because it it tends to describe. And when I look at the draper that that I've observed that fella, it was kind of wild, celebrational, recreational, whoopie kind of drinking that that this I I loved an endless party. But there was a point where the character of the drinking chain, not the amount.

I drank as much as I could before I was alcoholic. When you get so drunk you can't lay on the floor, that's about as good as you can do. I don't care whether you're alcoholic or not. Man, I've been such a drunk. I couldn't blink.

Stuff coming out my nose. Yeah. And and and he never thought I had enough. But something happened in that if I took a drink, I could not predict how long I would drink or how much I would drink, nor could I predict what I might do. And that became the story of my life.

A guy that just when I drank, something happened. I don't understand all that that that that that happened to me. I and I've like I said in the beginning, I don't really spend a lot of time on that. I find it relatively interesting, but almost totally unimportant to study the the the the wherefores of alcoholism almost totally unimportant in terms of my recovery. It doesn't really matter how it happened.

I'm not a village idiot, so I've got some kind of notions about it, but I don't take it very seriously. The most important thing that I know about alcoholism is that I have it, wherever it came from. And so when I look back, I could see that there was something happened to me that I don't understand, but it was basically like this. That if 10 people take a drink, 9 of them going about their business. 1 of them doesn't.

And I happen to be that 1. And whatever it is, I don't know. But but from the time I crossed that line, I think my future was predictable to anybody but me. And, I lived in the I really like to think Ken read that, that I heard it several times in what he read that you you hear the word delusion that comes out in that. You know, the words you'll never hear when you read that book is denial.

You'll never hear it. It isn't in there. And obviously not because Bill didn't know the word. I think that guy knew every word in every language, but it certainly wasn't that. I don't think he used the word because I don't think it aptly describes the condition.

Delusion is a different thing because what started to happen to me when I crossed that line developed alcoholism is that I'll just sum it up in a hurry because I do wanna talk about some other stuff. And, what started to happen was that I would start winding up ever increasing jackpots of all sorts. Wake up in a psych ward because somebody thought I acted peculiar. In a hospital with stuff broken that I didn't even know was injured. In in jail with sickening regularity.

God, that got to be a norm. Every time somebody mentions Kansas, this is not Kansas, Doug. This is New Jersey to the hilt. Every time I was telling somebody mentions Kansas, I I remember December 28th of 1951. That was the day that I was picked up off the floor of the Junction City, Kansas jail and had taken into the base to be ceremoniously discharged from the military with an undesirable discharge for alcoholism.

A 21 year old budding rocket scientist, and and that was well, I always think of that when I think of Kansas. But but but but what my life became was just that endless series of waking up in in strange places. I won't go into a whole bunch of them because, God, I mean, some of them were funny after about 10 years. They they black blackouts don't get funny for a long time. I don't know of anything more terrifying in the annals of alcoholism than than blackouts.

That thing of waking up, I don't need to tell you about it. Many of you understand blackouts, and the only time you understand them is when you've experienced it. To to to wake up with that panicky feeling of, for god's sakes, where am I? What have I done? Yeah.

And and that that horrible feeling of uncertainty till you start to get the clue. You know, our book describes it pretty vividly in one place. I in fact, I used to think it was a little bit of overkill where they referred to to the condition I'm talking about as pitiful incomprehensible demoralization. And for a long time when I read that, I always kinda thought in the back of my mind, oh, Bill got a little carried away with describing a hangover until I started to clearly see what happened when I would crash somewhere. And no matter where it was, in a wrecked car, in a wrong straight, woke up and say woke up one time married to a woman I didn't even know for god's sake.

That that takes bad liquor to do that to you. But that that's what it became, and and and that endless series of stuff. And and every time I would wake up, even though I didn't think it out at that time, but when I look back clearly, what would happen every time was pitiful and confident with demoralization. Because I'd take a look, and when I finally figured out where I was, you know, that panicky feeling And then I got to a point, just to illustrate, was was if I heard metal clanging, I relaxed. Because I knew I was in the right place.

And nobody ever put me in jail by mistake. At least they wouldn't admit it. And nobody ever apologized for it. That's for doggone sure. And, sometimes it was not all that pleasant.

I I'll just tell you one. I I woke up one morning, one of of many. I woke up one morning and, or came to, and I'd gotten to a point where I was greeted often enough with really, a bunch of folk who didn't understand. And as soon as they'd see my eyes open, they'd pounce on me. You know, what are you doing here?

You hate to say, where? Or who are you? Well, you may not remember. And if you do, you may not be sure what name you've used. You know?

So they they're rude, rude people that just sort of sort of greet you that way. So I got so I would wake up and never show evidence. You know, I mean, I wouldn't open my eyes. And so I would just come alert, you know, sort of. And, and I lay there still listening for the sounds of the environment.

One way I woke up, and there was a maddest woman I think I've ever heard in my life. God, she was mad. And she was just having an enormous, hard time with some drunken SOB in her daughter's bed. Well, I just had that brilliant alcoholic mind told me that there was a chance she was talking about me. I didn't figure that.

I knew I wasn't home. And, the now a drunk can lay still. I I mean, I was still, but I didn't blink. I didn't breathe. I'm just laying there.

And I'm trying to figure out, number 1, where I am. And number 2, how do I get out of here? You know? God, it won't go past her. And so when I saw my chant, I saw a little crack in the door, and so I just bolted out the door.

Well, it wasn't as bad as it sound. It was the house next door to mine. It ain't bad. Yeah, man. I usually missed it by whole state that year.

I got a proud of that. You almost got home. My god. Well, it was that kind of stuff. And so every time that would happen, my response would be that pitiful and god and it would be always something like this.

You've done it again. Done it again. You're no good. You know that moral whipping. You're worthless.

You have no discipline. You have no responsibility. You've got absolutely sorry, as we say down in North Carolina. And and and that was probably all applicable at that point. And then would proceed the options.

Yeah. I'd start thinking. And number 1 would always be, why don't you just end it? Why don't you just end it all? Everybody would be better off, and I and I wouldn't debate with that today.

Or if not that, do you ever have the thought of, I think I'll just keep going. I'll just disappear. I'll I'll just go on and just not bother anybody anymore. Just sort of walk off into the sunset. An appealing kind of an illusion that comes out of that delusion.

And and if not that, do I suck it up and go back and make up another set of lies and try it again? That was a routine that went on not once, not a dozen times. That went on time after time after time. Now let me tell you what was peculiar, what I the point I started to make with that, what Ken was reading. I never clearly saw that behavior.

I never clearly saw that until I was sober a good while in Alcoholics Anonymous. That's a delusion That in the book caused it an inability to differentiate the truth from the false. And when I was in that kind of condition, the real world looked like it was behind a dark screen. That world that I was in was the only one that had tangibility. And and and so that delusional world of not being able to see my own behavior, and I never saw that until I was clear, in in in Alcoholics Anonymous and cleared up.

And so that that thing just proceeded on. I I I I did very well. I was mentioned about potential. I was always the kind of guy that if I was sober, I made a pretty good impression. I I always did.

It's something that what you were reading there about that even in our in our kindness or even in our best times, there's always something underneath. Yeah. Yeah. I was the kind of guy that when I was sober, I looked like a world beater. I go in.

I'd look for a job. People would hire me for a better job than I'm looking for. It put me in charge of something. All I wanna do is pick up a box or something. You know?

And then I put me in charge, And then I'd work my way down. I never had a promotion in my life that I can recall. And, and so I had that kind of an ability. I I I that that that innate potential or something to look good, but an unfailing ability to take a drink at exactly the wrong time. And so it just screwed up and then incrementally, I just kept working my way down.

And in 8 year 8 short years, really, I it's a short period of time. It didn't seem like it then, but it was a short period of time. I went from a fellow who bounced out of high school in North Carolina at 16 and then the fellow who went through the military thrown out and then wound up up in the state of Michigan building automobiles when I I guess that's what I was doing. They they accused me of it anyway, but I I didn't know much about it. And then in in the city of a half 1000000 folks, I wound up unemployed and darnly unemployable.

I won't go into detail, but the last quasi legal job I had was, I ran a place called Eddie's Lounge. And, that was a very euphemistic term for that. That it was quasi legal at best. We we we sold a lot of stuff in there, some of it on the counter. Well, anyway, it it's a nice young boy like me, that would have not not have been on my resume of places that I would go, and I was fired, of course.

I was the drunkest guy in the place. Had to be. Jesus. I couldn't have stood that sober. And, and then hit the street in the last couple of years.

I I just basically lived, essentially on the street. Yeah. I I was my most frequent address was either the county jail or they had a movie theater called the Rialto, and and a good friend of mine just died. And he and I had a a wonderful time. He got sober, and he was in the same environment I was.

We drank together. I always accuse him of stealing my shoes in that movie theater, and we had fun with that for 30 years. And he was just killed in a plane crash very recently, but, funny about the survivors and how they cling together. Well and that's and that that was where I wound up. You know?

Just living a kind of life that I I, honest to god, didn't even know existed when, I grew up in Mayberry, man. I I didn't know the world was like that, but I was well accustomed to it. It's funny when you go down that the the change is so subtle or I guess I'm so groggy that I didn't even recognize how bad it was till it was over. So I wound up where at what one what at one time would have been a totally unthinkable way for me to live became the only normal way for me to live, Remarkably normal. It it was not it wasn't surprising in a way, but when I started thinking about it, I was sober for a pretty good while before I ever started thinking in terms of decency or quality.

You know what I mean? I was the kind of guy that would just instinctively reach out for the inferior because that was what my life had become, which is automatically thinking in those second rate terms. And, recovery doesn't lead to a second rate existence. It leads to some real real life with integrity and purpose. And and so but that's where I wound up.

And it would be nice if if I could tell you that that one fine day I had enough and called for help, found it, and, and, never sinned again. That it but it just didn't work that way. Yeah. I was one of those guys who wound up doing many of you are well aware in here, but, I was one of those guys who wound up doing the kind of thing that I know every alcoholic in the world fears doing, thank God most don't. But some some of my dear friends in here have experienced the same thing.

And and I woke up to the to the to the horror that makes blackouts so terrifying. It's that unknown quality of, good god, what have I done? And so I'd all I'd had hundreds of times when I'd wake up and I'd be confronted with the terror, and it would always be a a useless terror. But one morning, I woke up in jail there in Flint. Nothing new about that.

And was greeted with the fact that the night before, I had run down and killed 2 people in the street of that city. And, and, it's, I mean, there's no way to imagine. It was just impossible to imagine the impact of that. I I couldn't even describe it adequately. It's just I believe that the mind only accepts what it can handle.

And and and my response was just basically to push it away and say no. No. No. And then gradually accept the truth. Only time I'd ever been in jail didn't try to get out.

And then somebody, one of the policemen there, I think, learned that I had family in North Carolina. I had mother and sister, and they contacted them and and, told them they had a a gap in a lot of trouble. And so they came up and and, I didn't want to get out of jail. I was ashamed to get out of jail. I couldn't I couldn't even fathom the thought of facing anybody.

And, but I didn't know how to say that to anybody. Yeah. I was just a withdrawn guy just absolutely backing away from any semblance of life. And so they came up and and, they got an attorney, negotiated my release on bond. I I was charged with manslaughter, and I was released July 17 of of 56.

I I knew I knew, that I would not drink. I mean, my god, how could you drink after something like that? The more appropriate question is how could you not drink after something? But I didn't know that. I had no earthly idea about alcoholism.

But I just know I got out, stayed sober a day and a half by walking the streets, and then I started to drink, of course. And from July to November of 56, I drank literally like nobody I've ever seen. I and I worked with I have worked with many thousands of alcoholics. Held a guy in my arms while he died one time, and even he was not in the frame of mind that I was. I was a guy that just gave him the condition.

I'm I have absolutely no doubt even then that I was trying to drink myself. Yeah. That was obvious. I mean, a coulda diagnosed me. And, and so that went on just big time from June till the 19th November.

On on that day, I had a I had about that much in a bottle of gin and, and went went to court. There there was no trial, had no defense. I'm not it's the the hell of a blackout is you you're not a witness to your own behavior. Because I couldn't testify anything, you know, that and so they they held it out as of course found guilty and and sent us to a max of 15 years in in a Michigan State Penitentiary. Now, that was I mean, I knew I was going away.

That was that was no shock about that. But there's something about the shock of the reality, I think, because my response when when that, reaction, I guess, when when that judge passed that sentence, I had an instinctive reaction of fear. I guess a very normal thing. And almost simultaneous, the most real sense of relief I'd ever known because I knew it was done. It was over.

Not optimism, not hope, not a future's coming. I knew it was done. It was all over. And I walked into that place the next day. I did it well.

I did walk in, but I was chained with 5 other guys, and we walked in to to that institution. At at that time, and I think it probably still has the honor, if you can call it that, it was the largest walled institution in the world. At 54 acreage behind a 40 foot wall. And and I knew when I walked in to that thing, it's just a chain of human misery that walks into places like that. And and most folks come out of there worse than it came than it went in.

And and so I I knew when I when I went into that place that that I would never come out of their life. And I, honest to God, didn't care. I mean, I was past caring. I was past concern or fear. I was just into total isolation, and they put me out, sat in a cell for the 1st month that I was there, Did anything I could do to keep from thinking.

And, you know, it's amazing to me the little things that that make a difference. I I don't know what happened to everybody. I listen closely when people talk about what happens to them, but there it's a it's amazing the the little things that come to be turning points. You know, I'd had a lot of turning points in my life, always turned the wrong way. But when things started to turn the right way, and I look back, it was amazingly simple stuff.

One of the things that happened, the guy sometime during that first month I was there, called me out for an interview. And and I'm sure a lot of people did, gave me MMPIs and all that kind of stuff. This guy called me out, did a little social work interview. And he'd asked the questions he was trained to ask, and I I I did the did the answers I was trained to give. I lied like a dog.

I'm sure. Yeah. I I mean, I didn't have to make up a lie. I just instinctively lied. That that was a natural day.

It would have been abnormal for me not to lie. And, apparently, the answers don't have a lot to do with the evaluation because, he he did what they taught him in college. If you see a guy that's got a file like that and it's all about drunk, you ought to tell him you ought to go to AA. Well, now I'd had a lot of people tell me when they would would have me up against the wall over my drinking that I was alcoholic or drunk or bum or what have you. I'd heard that forever, but I had never had anybody suggest what you did about it.

Yeah. Other I mean, some would say, why don't you quit? And I never could think of any good reason to quit. I got only people I ever saw who quit looked like they'd quit something. I mean, that was a well, none I wanted as a role model.

That's for sure. Drunk was bad enough. My god. You know, imagine sober. And, so this guy laid that stuff out and and, he said, you've had a lot of trouble with booze.

I said, oh, yeah. And, then he said what I'd never heard before. He said, I don't remember if he said AA or alcoholic zombie, but he said, we've got an AA group here at the institution, and I think you ought to go. It was just a flat conversational kind of thing like that. It wasn't it didn't didn't capture me like we do nowadays.

They didn't put a noose on me. They say, if you don't go, we're gonna slam dunk you or something. That just said you ought to go. And then I got a little p looked like an old telegraph. I got a piece of paper about like that, and it said you you're you're cleared to go to your first meeting, February 2nd 57th.

I didn't particularly wanna go to alcoholics. I didn't believe I was an alcoholic. I don't know. How how could you possibly be an alcoholic at 24 with so much potential? Yeah.

I'd had folks tell me I had a lot of potential, and and I never forgot it. Had a lot of folks tell me I was a worthless bum, but I promptly for disregarded all that. Yeah. And but this I didn't believe I was an alcoholic. Not not not whatsoever.

That was a totally foreign term to me. But for some reason, that that day came, February 2nd. I I walked into my first meeting. I didn't wanna join a a. I I I I was the only if I had any amp drive or any ambition at that point, it was to disappear.

I I mean, I just I just simply I didn't wanna engage with anybody. I've never been more isolated in my life. I didn't communicate with anybody. I had no conversations. And I think the only reason I went to that first meeting was that that I was just beat.

I I was just absolutely beat. I had no resistance. I couldn't even put up a fight. And so I walked in. 1 guy spoke to me.

I had about 300 folks in that group became my home group. It'll always be my home group. The, recovery group of Jackson Prison. I don't wanna be a regular member, but I that'll that'll ain't it funny how the place where it works for you is always important no matter where it is? There's little that that folks could ask you to do at that place you wouldn't do.

Yeah. I go back every couple of years. Every chance I get, I go back up to Jackson. Yeah. Everybody I knew, they're dead.

Yeah. I'm the only thing living, I believe. And, I go back, don't know anybody, but, oh, boy, I know where I am. And I go back to make sure I'm warned that I ain't there. And, and the other is to maybe say something to the guy who is.

You know? And so has a bit of a purpose. You know? Kind of a, I had a I won't go into it, but I had a had a chance one time to, I didn't ask for it, but somebody I was up there visiting and somebody said, would you like to see your old cell? And I said, jeez, that'd be nice.

You know? And, and, so we went and and I'll just tell you this much of it. We went to, went over that block. I tell you it's a funny thing when you retrace your steps. Never go back to a place where somebody said about how Frank gives directions to somewhere That you better listen close because what he does is tell you all of his drinking spots, and by the way, a street name somewhere.

You know what? It's funny, ain't it, when you walk back over your own history and, particularly if it's one where your life hung by a slender, slender thread. So we walked walked out on the yard. Now I had private thoughts. I didn't get in conversation, but just private thoughts.

You know, naturally, they they that special meaning to me. I remember walking across that yard when that was where I lived and knew that's where I would die. Walked across the yard where every second of every day was filled with tension and anxiety. About everything, about nothing. Where a man's inhumanity to man was normal, where sincerity was looked at as stupidity.

Yeah. Private thoughts, you know, as we walked along that place, went into that cell block. It's funny what you what you notice, you know, when we walked in, it's an old, old penitentiary and, the the the brick stairs that go into the dorm to the block were worn. You know? And and I I just sort of mentally calculated how much I contributed to that groove.