Myers R. from Dallas, TX, Brian P. from Union, ME & Kip C. from Vista, CA answering questions at the 2nd annual Men Among Men 12-step conference in Reykjavik, Iceland

Hi, Hi, We got a shitload of questions here. So, there are a few in Icelandic, so I was thinking I might translate them to you. I can't. Oh, he can. Okay.

He can. Okay. How do you handle a who's going through having rough times, and of relationship, finances, or other stuff? Me? For instance?

Sorry. I was having a meaningful conversation with someone outside. How do I handle someone that's having relationship problems, and no money? Well, that's obviously they're new my my sponsor told me one of the greatest advice he ever gave me was that, if I needed to have a relationship, that it was impossible for me to have one. You know, because that's not a relationship.

And when when I didn't need a woman to validate me as a man, I could have a relationship with a woman, but not a minute before that. You know, I think a lot of people that are coming back into Alcoholics Anonymous, and we all come in here with, financial problems, with relationship problems, with legal problems, with health problems. The only thing we treat is alcoholism. And if you live by the principles, those things will start taking care of themselves. My sponsor told me if I went to work every single day and went to a meeting every day, my life would get different, You know?

And you know what? After a while, my life started getting different. If but if I try to concentrate on putting that woman back into my life immediately or or taking care of my financial problems, if that's the most important thing, you see, those things aren't gonna kill me. My alcoholism will kill me, and I must address my alcoholism. And as a result of me addressing that, my life will start changing, and those other things will take care of themselves if that's God's will for me.

You know? That's all I got to say about that. Someone was asking for a sponsor, so there you go. I'm gonna put this one to you, Myers. Do you think it's your duty to be where the solution already is in a meeting, or do you think you should rather travel, Go a long way to other meetings that are non solution based.

Okay. Do I think it's okay to be doing what I'm doing instead of staying in the meeting? Is that what it is? Yeah. Should you travel and go to second groups or, excuse me, different home groups?

Real simple question. And the answer is real simple too. My responsibility I'm one of these old guys that believe that back to basics stuff told us that we're supposed to be, back in a home group setting, that We need to establish a home group and be there for that, those guys. We also have a responsibility to carry a message someplace else. I do not believe that it is our our deal to sit in a meeting waiting for the drunk to come to me because there's millions of them out there that will never be at that meeting.

A lot of us meet in obscure places, in churches, in places that are way away from the alcoholic, and so we need to be up off our rear ends, and out there carrying a message, to these other guys. If you know somebody that's got a toxic meeting going, if you wanna go sit in the meeting, we're not about beating up other people. We have no opinion on on outside issues, and it's not our job to go over and fix somebody else's group. But if you know you got a toxic meeting going on in your in your in your city where people are not getting sober, and you wanna go sit in on a couple of those meetings over there and add some hope and add some some some guidance, do that. Do that.

It's a great way to do that stuff. Treatment centers, wind up joints, this kind of stuff. Iceland's got more good places to go carry a message than any place I've ever ever seen. If you don't have a place to do 12 step work it's because you don't wanna do 12 step work. It's that simple.

It really. Okay. Here's one for Brian. I go by the book. I show good example.

I'm always there for the newcomer, but those who I sponsor, they don't go the same way as I do. I have two and a half years sober. I'm worried about this. I don't know what it is about Iceland there. Even the urinals are up to my neck.

It's not really funny, but, that's a good question. It's it's I'm not really I guess here's what I would say in a row because Myers said I need to be brief. And, if I'm doing all that, whoever wrote that question, if I'm doing all that and I'm being of service and I'm I'm just doing it and the aren't getting sober, And I'm I'm okay with that. As long as I'm really doing all that, if I'm if I'm guiding people through the process, if I'm active in AA because I'm real clear about this. And and I sponsor let's say I sponsor, like, 20 guys about about what I have.

I had to count them 20 guys. Out of that 20, 5, I I really don't sponsor, but they they call me their sponsor, and I just don't sponsor them. But they say I'm their sponsor. Alright? The reality is if you want what I have, do what I'm doing.

And if you aren't doing what I'm doing, then you'll probably get what you always got. And I don't put any emphasis on what you know, I I don't I just don't take that personal. I used to take that real personal like it was my job to save everybody. And the reality is it's not. It's not my job to carry a message.

If I'm really doing all that, the more people I sponsor, the more people that will start to fall they'll start you know? I guess what I'm trying to say is, some people just aren't willing. That's the reality, and it all comes down to whether they wanna accept God's grace or not. And if they do, they'll get what you got. And so it just keep plugging away, and And it is frustrating when you're a new sponsor.

You I mean, you want everybody to get it, and you don't. It took me a while. I killed my first. So, I mean, really, he died, and, and I, like, took that personal. It had nothing to do with me.

I was bringing everything that I was supposed to bring to the gentleman, and he didn't want it. So I guess that's it. I hope that answers. Chip, how much time do you spend each day on prayer and meditation? What about your evening review?

How much time do you spend on that? It's one of my favorite questions. The most important thing that I do to me, which is even more important than me going to a meeting, my my day starts just before the sun comes up. I have a garden that I've worked on for years, and, I spend my first hour in the garden every single morning, and I do my prayers. And then I sit and try to get real quiet and listen.

At nighttime, when I do my 10th step, each night before I go to bed, I go to bed very late. My day starts at about 5:30 in the morning, and it ends at about 1 o'clock at night in the in the morning the following day. I do a 10 step, and I do a 10 step the way my sponsor taught me. And one of the main things that I try to work on at all times continuously is step 6 and 7 for me. In step 6, I I I made a list of all all of my defects of characters, and believe me, in sobriety in 20 years, I've developed new ones.

You know? And I'll probably develop some new ones this weekend. You know? And I try to identify those things, and then on the on my 7th, what I try to do is I ask god for help on them, but I also I write down what the opposite of that defect is that I'm practicing. You know, if I'm a liar, I wanna track work on truthfulness better.

You know, if I'm getting real self centered, I I wanna start working on being more people centered. So the first thing, inventory, I do is do I practice any of my defects today? And I have to be honest about it. Do I owe someone an amends? Do I need to go clean something up?

Or did I practice these new principles that I'm trying to live on? You know? And I just try to keep correcting my course each night, trying to head true north at all times, just trying to correct my my course. Because it it's so easy to get off course, and pretty soon, I'm not going north. I'm going south.

That's it. Good questions, everyone. I can assure you. That's so good. I did a workshop one time in the United States and we got done with this whole thing and they wanted to do a question deal and it wasn't one question.

There was 500 people and there was no questions. They they were a bunch of lockjawed people. They were really really pissed. They didn't I understand that. I understand what it's like to to to part of part of everything we're doing is about reevaluating where we are and asking the hard questions about what we're doing and and and this sort of thing.

None of it's meant from a judgmental nature. Guys, they didn't they didn't appoint me president of AA yesterday. I begged them to do that but they didn't do that. And so so the these are all suggestions that you might do if you're if you're contorted and having trouble where you where you are at a specific place. One of the questions I got was, isn't it my job to stay in meetings where the message is missing?

Great. It's a great question. All of us at some time or another are part of a group that things have gone side ways in. Where things have gotten toxic. Where people are standing there just talking about their day and nobody's talking about solution and drunks aren't getting sober.

And so you have the questions you can you get that? There you go. You just can put them in a scrapbook or something. I don't know. Yes.

I do think that it's your, it's your, it's your duty to, to be there. But let me paint a real quick mental picture for you. Let's say that you're in a meeting that has been going on for a good period of time and the meeting has gone toxic and nobody's getting sober and everybody is just there for the fellowship part. There's no program being done. It's all fellowship.

Do you have do you have a responsibility to to stay in that meeting? No. Because you'll die there if you're not careful. You have to be really careful. People say, well, when do I know when when it's time to leave?

When you're hurting enough that you need to go someplace else, do that. There I spend much more time today trying to get guys plugged into new group situations than I am trying to salvage old group situations. Because the old groups are real set in their ways and you're not gonna do that. I mean, you're not gonna change 25 or 30 people that have been doing it the same way for a bunch of years. They'll see your life and some of them will gravitate to you, and then you grab those guys and you go start you another group where things are staying healthy.

That's at least that's been our experience anyway in setting up groups and stuff. I think that answers that question. You guys okay on that? If you guys got something to share, you can jump right in there if if you wanna tag in. Okay.

Next question I had on this stuff was how can I know the difference between my own voice and God's voice? This cat's got 2 months of sobriety. He does. He told me or her. Him.

That's a great question. Let's stop and think about this stuff. On page 164, there's a line in there that said that god will constantly disclose more to you and to us. Right? So if we're gonna believe that the basic text is telling us the truth, then God's constantly disclosing things to us.

So our our our goal here as it were is to spend as much time as we can trying to understand what God's will is, which we do in we do throughout our day, but in in 11 especially, in step 11 especially, our deal is to slow down. For most of us it's slowing down that's the problem. We don't have a problem with the concept of prayer and meditation and doing this other stuff. It's just trying to unlearn this deal of being busy all the time and going a 100 miles an hour to just shut our minds down. We won't do this here, but later on during the weekend, if you guys wanna talk about some of that stuff, I'd be glad to spend some time with you.

I'm huge on meditation and huge on prayer because our our real, grip in this whole thing comes through that stuff. The specific answer to that specific question is, is the feeling that you had when you prayed this, the answer that you think you got, is it selfish? Guys, I prayed for years for a Porsche. I wanted a Porsche so bad that it was just not I didn't get the Porsche. You see?

The the I wanted the Porsche because I thought I wanted it. It's a selfish deal. God wanted me to have a van so I can carry 15 people to a meeting. That's what he wanted. And so that's what I have.

You see? And I suspect that at some point in time, God may see fit to bring me that Porsche, but the the hope springs eternal. But I had to ask the question, is what I'm asking selfish? Sure. Sure.

If what I ask, will benefit other drunks, then it's not a selfish request and and and my answers will be in that that same realm. But that's the surest way to tell whether or not you're you're straying off into the ozone. The next question on the thing, when working with a newcomer who is still in treatment, should I start working the steps or wait until he's done with treatment? I'm not sure but I bet I've been asked that question more than any other question ever And if you're on the firing line out there helping drunks, you will be there 15 seconds and that question will be in your mind. Do I need to do this now or wait?

The first thing I do is always this is again, this is my own personal experience on this. Some guys may disagree. I always go to the treatment guys, the guys that run the joint first and I tell them. I find out what my parameters are gonna be. I don't wanna be in conflict with the treatment stuff there.

They've asked me to come, they've allowed me to come as a guest to carry a message there. And the last thing I wanna do is step on a bunch of toes being an abrasive member of Alcoholics Anonymous. It's not my job to do that. So I'm gonna ask them going in. What I would really like to do is work these guys through this work as fast as I can.

I would like to be thorough but I'd like to be fairly expedient on this thing. Can I do this? And if there's any limitations, will you tell me now? Some treatment places will say, hey. Work any of your guys up through 3 and then stop.

And we're gonna do some stuff with them and then you can work 4, 5 and the rest of the stuff when they get out of treatment. A lot of places are like that now. I've got 2 places that we go every week in Dallas that let us do whatever we wanna do as fast as we wanna do. Those cats are there for 30 days, and every one of those men that we work with have worked the steps in 30 days and are out there kicking butt and taking names when they get out. It's a cool deal, but you need to check and see what the deal is.

We'll talk about this some in the morning. The book says real clear that we we will not be able to bring into consciousness with sufficient force the pain and suffering of a week or a month ago, and so I don't like dragging this crap out. And so yes, I'm one of those big book guys that believes that we need to work the work as fast as we can. And so I'm diligent. If they're willing and they're they're they're ready to do this, I'm gonna I'm gonna work them as quick as we can.

That answer that thing? I think we did. Couple more here. How do you qualify a guy and how do you approach him? It's the stuff we were talking about this morning.

I am so tired of seeing men and women hurting in our fellowship that I'm real real bold about that stuff. I tend to ask a lot of questions right off the bat when guys come to our meeting and this sort of thing and I'll and I'll ask them. Early AA used to ask this one question first off the bat, are you done? What's wrong with just asking a guy that or a woman that? But are you done?

It's a simple question because the reality is is that a lot of us really aren't done. We wanna be out of trouble, but we're not done. We still really would like to figure out a way. Remember the book where they talk about the lurking notion? There must be lurk no lurking notion.

A lot of us come into this deal with a lurking notion that as soon as we get all the the blowtorch off our rear, we're gonna be able to to to drink again or we'll be drug again or we'll be able to act like fools like we were. And and that's kinda that's kinda crazy. So I qualify them right off the bat. I ask them if they're done. If they say yes, I take them to page 44.

I ask them the 2 questions about power and choice. Have we lost the power of choice and control? And and that gives me a pretty good idea of what we're dealing with. Whether we need to go ahead and proceed with this guy as an alcoholic or whether we need to slap him on the back and say, brother I'm glad you're here, and basically dust him. I'm I'm gonna go find me a real drunk to work with.

If this guy doesn't answer these questions the right way, I'm gonna go find somebody else and and he's welcome in our meetings. I mean, but you get to that. Do you guys have anything to add to that stuff? So far so good? I mean, you guys are easy now.

I love this question. How is it for a couple who are both alcoholics to get sober and work the steps? Guys AA is full of absolutely wonderful relationships where both men and women were in recovery. Absolutely stellar relationships. There's also some relationships made in hell through that same deal.

And and it's it's, it's important to ask yourself these questions. People that I work with who have who have wives in recovery, I also insist that they become good members and a good standing in Al Anon too. Some people disagree with me on this thing, but I think that you need to understand that you have no more control over your spouse than than than anything, than your family had over you. We simply don't have that kind of control over somebody else, so it's important that we understand how to detach from that control issue. My wife is either working that program or she's not working that program, and I have no control over what this thing is.

And you want to show you want to see a screwed up relationship, let the man or the woman in the relationship get, judgmental about the other one's program and watch how fast things begin to slide sideways. Watch how cold the old bedroom gets. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a a slide piece of advice.

This isn't in the big book, but just as a piece of advice. If you if your wife is in this program, man, if your wife is in this program also and she's not doing what she's do supposed to be doing and she's drifting, don't talk to your wife. Talk to your wife's sponsor and express your concerns. Tell them. Hey.

She's acting like a fruitcake again. Let's what what is going on? And then and then try to see it from that perspective and see if you can do it because I guarantee if you confront her, you know, full face and say that, it's not going to be too effective. Still okay? Still okay?

Never try to sponsor your wife. Kip says never try to sponsor your wife and I concur that is a, a disaster. Last, but not least on my stack of this stuff, what what could groups do to make members accountable regarding following the traditions, singleness of purpose traditions, this kind of stuff. Each and every one of us has a responsibility, guys, to, stay attached and adhered to the traditions. I know how how plugged in most of you guys are around the steps.

I've talked to a bunch of you 1 on 1 and I know where you are. I know very little about where you are around the traditions. We've not talked about it a great deal. We'll talk about it some in the morning, but I can assure you that, if you want to watch AA disintegrate before your eyes begin to ignore the traditions and watch what happens in your group. The steps were a a a a suggested bunch of stuff that we were supposed to do.

The traditions were a suggested bunch of stuff that we were not supposed to do. It's telling us directly and specifically what we're supposed to steer clear of, and a lot of groups don't wanna hear that. A lot of individual alcoholics don't wanna hear that. But unless the unity of AA stays whole, that's what the traditions were about. How do we hold our groups whole?

And, so it's huge. If you have a group now and you're not studying the traditions on a regular basis, next time you have a group conscience meeting come up or a steering committee meeting come up, business stuff, stand there firm and insist that it be done. Tell them God told you in morning meditation. Tell him a crusty old sumbitch from Texas said, I want you guys to be studying their traditions because collectively your whole fellowship will get healthier and you'll begin to see the guidepost that your group operates in. And it's an amazing deal because when people start getting outside of the confines of the traditions you'll know it, you'll recognize it, and you'll be able to do something about it.

And you'll be able to shore all that stuff up so that your group stays healthy. And if your group stays healthy, then AA stays healthy as a whole. You see? That's pretty good stuff. Thanks, guys.

Alright. I only got a few, so, we'll be brief on this. Couple of these are the same way. This is a big one. I'm gonna do this.

I should probably pray before I do this one, though. How do you work a 9 step on a person you have molested? Well, when it comes to amends, it's really between me and God when I'm making amends. You know, I I, I I do run stuff by sponsors. You know, I actually have few people.

I run it through my sponsor and then a few mentors, people that I respect in AA. But, really, it comes down to, I've at that stage, I've I've usually acquired a pretty decent relationship with God, and so I take it to prayer. The directions in the big book are crystal clear. There's a lot of parameters within those pages. Between 76 and 84, you pretty much can tell you what not to do.

And, really, it comes down to I gotta be hard on myself. Right? I really gotta be hard on myself, but I also can't hurt other people. Obviously, if, you know, if if I was to take my own experience of what I think I would do on that, I'd clean it up. You know?

Obviously, the person that I molested knows that I molested them, so that's not even a it's a no brainer for me on that. Again, no, I I do not take this is my experience, and it's really something that needs to be brought in the prayer, because it what I know about men's is the healing process is huge, and I was willing to go to any length for this. And that means I went into every single business I stole from and was willing to put my freedom on the line for this stuff. And so I don't personally I don't see it any other way. I need to be willing to go any length, and and the big book talks about that.

So, if you wanna talk 1 on 1 on that, I'm willing to talk 1 on 1 because that's a big deal, unless you've already gone to prison for that, then, and I think it just needs to be talked about. And what I'm clear about this is when I went to make amends to some of the people, if they did not wanna hear it, then I needed to respect that because it's not okay for me to get free of what I wanna get free of at the other person's expense. And there are a few people that I went to that I went to make amends, and they flat out told me, I do not wanna hear it. I don't wanna talk to you. And everything in my body screamed, no, but you must hear what I have to say because it was really selfish.

I wanted to be free of it. And the truth is, it's not about me. Amend means to fix, and so if they don't want it, then I gotta walk away. Alright. I hope that answered that one.

If if a person wants to work the a steps but is more a drug addict, what do you tell him or her when he says or she says that he does not want to go to NA? Well, that's a good question. Here's my experience with what's happening. And and and, again, this may be, I work with a lot of alcoholics and people who are addicted to drugs. I like Kip and, Myers.

You know, I'm a cocaine addict, obviously. I I didn't rob banks to support my drinking. You know what I mean? So it's crystal clear for me that that that it's a problem for me. But I'm in AA.

I have alcoholism. It manifested itself in many different ways, but I'm an alcoholic. So the 12 steps treated that. Alright? So when I sponsor people, they don't none now if I sponsor somebody who, I go to the prison.

And so every time I get a new group, so we meet 10 guys. I take a group of guys to the book. So it's like a group thing, but then we do 4th and 5th. The 5th step, we do 1 on 1, but I take them through the process as a group. And a lot of guys, I get in the 1st step, and they're like, well, I'm not a I'm not a, you know, I'm not an alcoholic.

I'm an addict. And we'll find out if they are through this process, you know, through, you know, the questions that are inside the first pages, you know, that page 44 and doctor's opinion gives you some good stuff. If they're not an alcoholic, I will still take them through the 12 steps, but then I send them to their fellowship. And in my community, we have a strong OA. We have really strong big book OA.

And they were coming to our meeting, and they weren't alcoholics, but they were OA. And so some of our members took them through the process of the 12 steps and then sent them to OA, and now OA is extremely strong. So when a person because what happens the reason NA this is just my own opinion. The reason NA, I think, is weak in a lot of areas is because they hide out in Alcoholics Anonymous. And you'll hear that all the time.

Well, AA is much stronger, so I just go to AA. So then, basically, we're leaving the addicts with nothing. And so, we take NAs. I take them through the steps, if they're heroin addicts or whatever and then send them to NA, and NA is starting to get strong. And, now if they're AA NA, if if some guys I sponsor, I don't go to CA or NA.

I just don't. I stay in AA because that's my primary purpose. So I hope that answered. That may have actually confused somebody more. So the guy I sponsor refuses to go past 3rd step.

What do I do? Well, you really don't know what I do? If I do a 3rd step with you, alright, if I'm gonna go through the first three and we pray and do a 3rd step. Alright. Did you wanna say something?

Okay. If I do a 3rd step with somebody and then I for me, this is the way it works. If I'm sponsoring you, we're gonna do that prayer together. We're gonna kneel. We're gonna read the prayer, and we're gonna talk about stuff, but then we're gonna do that.

And then I give the guy a notebook. I usually buy their 1st notebook because I'm a kind guy. And then we start the 4th step because it talks about it. It says that that decision I made would have that vital decision would have little permanent effect unless at once, followed by a strenuous effort to be faced and be rid of the things that are blocking me. So it's crystal clear.

So So if I do a prayer with somebody, I tell them, Caleb, if you do this prayer and you make this decision, which is a huge decision, and you don't follow it up with an inventory, your life will get very colorful and I won't sponsor you. I ain't got time for that. There's too many I work with too many people. I do not have time to play those kind of games. It'll be crystal clear because you will not write any inventory, and then, pretty much, your life will get colorful and you'll fade away.

So if they're telling me flat out if and this is what I if they they refuse to go pass if if I did a prayer and he said, I'm not doing a 4 step, well, then I'm not sponsoring you. You gotta go find some middle of the road solution guy who will take care of that for you because I'm not doing that. You know? I love you. You come out, or we'll even go have coffee and stuff, but I can't sponsor you if you don't want that.

You know? Because I don't have any experience of not doing that of doing that. Alright? So good luck on that one. After taking AA steps working in DA and SLAA, what are your thoughts or experience on other 12 step programs?

Well, I I I'm really sure I don't have an opinion on other 12 step programs. I don't have any experience in them except that, they're there and they're useful and people's lives can be changed. I mean, I have experience in the sense of I have friends who are in OA and then they but I don't participate in those, so I really don't have an opinion on that. I don't have a negative opinion. I'll tell you that, you know, because I because I I don't know enough about it.

I know that if you apply the principles I mean, if you really look historically, all the programs outside of AA started from AA members, really, who had other issues. You know? OA, GA, SLAA, you know, DA, which I'd never ever she heard till I came here this weekend. I never heard of debtors anonymous and but, I mean, the principles beyond the first step, what I'm powerless over, the principles are still it's a spiritual malady. I think I think we do a disservice when we, well, I don't know about that.

I I guess I just don't have an opinion on that. I just gotta be real clear because it's literally not I I think other programs help people, and they save lives. So that's about as clear as I can get on that. You know, what do you know the difference between an alcoholic and a heavy drinker? And there's another question that goes with this.

I'm gonna read this one too because he's really gonna get answered by the same question. This is kinda long, but bear with me. It says, often when I'm about to meet people with more time than me, speakers, etcetera, I start thinking, oh, it wasn't that bad. Maybe I'm only a problem drinker. My story's not as bad as theirs, etcetera.

I always cringe at the real alcoholic discussion, always afraid you're gonna tell me I'm not an alcoholic, always afraid of you finding me out. I was able to stop for a Catwoman, like in the beginning. And I could tell you, I never turned into Catwoman Catwoman, like in the beginning. I could tell you, I never turned into Catwoman either. I'll just give you a heads up.

Beginning of my drinking days. And the last time I had to either buy food for kids or go to the bar, for me, it wasn't even a difficult choice. I go to the bar, didn't even realize it till next day, and once and for am I an alcoholic? So there's someone asking me really convoluted, are they an alcoholic? And there's another one that says, how do you know the difference between an alcoholic and a heavy drinker?

And Myers has done a great job, about that question, about, I go into this process. When I take guys through the book again, I always go into it as in, hey. Maybe I'm not an alcoholic. Every time. Anytime I'm taking someone to the book, I always ask myself the question like, okay.

We're gonna go through this, and I'll start I'm starting from the beginning. Maybe I'm not an alcoholic. Maybe I you know? Does that scare me? You know?

Let's talk. Well, usually, it does. It frightens me because I know, you know, the truth. But so and then lots of questions. And I get into a lot of guys because I sponsor the guy in the prison, it's really big because a lot of these guys are doing time because of their crime and well, obviously, they're doing time for their crime, but they're because they're addicted to drugs.

And so they always say to me, you you know, I never had a problem with is there 20, 21, 22? And so I say, well, let's just assume you're not an alcoholic. Let's everybody, I stole a prayer from some guys. Some it's, called the set aside prayer, but I really stole it because it was really good. It's like, let's set aside everything I think I know about recovery, about anything, and just completely be open to a new experience that maybe I'm not an alcoholic.

Let's find out. Page 44. I take people to the doctor's opinion. There's a solution and more about alcoholism. Those are the 3 chapters that I deal with when I'm talking about alcoholism.

Because I have to look at unpowered us 2 ways. Physically, meaning when I drink, do I have any control over the amount I drink? And the first time I asked myself a question, I said, oh, yeah. My sponsor said, every time you drink, you have control. Oh, not every time.

He says, well, let's look at the doctor's opinion. The doctor's opinion says, we believe and so suggested a few years ago that the action of alcohol on these chronic alcoholics is a manifestation of an allergy that the phenomenon of craving is limited to this class and never occurs in the average temper drinker. So my sponsor said, well, what does never mean to you? Never means never. See, when these guys wrote the book these guys were 40, 50 years old.

They were all late stage alcoholics when they did this. He said, you don't find any young people at the beginning of our history. And so I had to start looking at my drinking. I mean, I I went to prison when I was 22. From 22 to 29, I didn't do a lot of drinking.

I mean, I made some wine in prison, but it wasn't, like, a daily thing, You know? And so I had a struggle finding my alcoholism. Well, maybe I'm just a drug addict. Maybe I'm not. And so my son said, well, there are any times that you drink more than you wanted to drink.

Yeah. Oh, and then this is saying that it never occurs in the temperate drinker. Well, maybe you're an alcoholic. Maybe I am. So I ask guys a question all the time.

I had this kid the other day. I said, she goes, I'm not an alcoholic, and I don't wanna argue. I'm like, okay. Maybe you're not. That's cool.

Maybe you're not. Maybe you're just a heroin addict. Let's talk about that. You ever drink to a blackout? Oh, yeah.

I've had blackouts. And I said, so when you started drinking that night, did you say, I'm gonna drink right to a blackout tonight? That's my goal. I'm gonna drink to a blackout. Oh, no.

No. I didn't do that. Oh, you ever puke all over yourself? Oh, yeah. Many times.

So when you started drinking that night, did you say, you know what? I'm just gonna drink till I puke on myself. So I think as a sponsor, it's our job to ask some questions, you know, like, to probe some questions, and then they can find their own truth. Because the truth is, I can't tell you whether you're an alcoholic. You gotta come to your own conclusion.

Deep down inside, you have to fill it. When I start asking those questions, and it's like, oh, yeah. And the real question on 44, which I think, you know, AA, in their infinite wisdom, had put a pamphlet out called 22, I don't know, 40 questions or whatever. You know? Myers, my sponsor is just like Myers.

He's like, well, there's only 2 questions we need to ask ourselves. And then the little bit kicker on that says, if when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely or if when drinking, you have little control of the mountain you take, you're probably alcoholic. It says, the great obsession of every alcoholic is to control and enjoy his drinking. Because we know what the truth was in my life. There were times I could control it, but I could never match control and enjoy.

Never. And I had to go back to when I was 19 and my parents said, we think you have a drinking problem. And I said, in my mind, okay. I gotta be careful. When I'm around my parents, I gotta make sure that I'm not too drunk.

And so my mom would say, hey. It's your dad's birthday. We're having a little party. And so I would drink a few beers to get nice and lubed, get comfortable because that's the only way I can meet people is if I have some booze in me. And I would go there and I would say, I'm just gonna have 1 beer in front of my parents, and so I drink 1 beer.

And everybody else is sloshing them down, but I'm trying to control my drink and to make it look good. I did not enjoy those nights. Never enjoyed them. In fact, every time, it would be I would always leave 2 hours before the party was over, and I would hit the drive through Arizona's got drive through liquor stores, which I think is just a wonderful gift. And so I'd, like, don't even have to get out of my car.

You know? And I would get myself, you know, a pint or whatever I was drinking. So can I control and enjoy my drinking? You know? Do I have control over it?

And when you're and when I deal with a lot of young alcoholics where their alcoholism has not progressed to the stage that some of us have, then that's just the reality. That's a flat out reality. You know? Some people have, but I I deal with I sponsor drunks who you know, it's just the beginning of their alcoholism, and they say, yeah. So those are some questions you need to ask yourself.

And if you have any questions on that and you wanna talk more about it, come and see me after. And, this is, I think this is a really this is probably the best question I have is, how do you manage to do so much 12 step work without neglecting your family? If you called my wife and I give you the number or email and you asked her if I ever neglect the family, she would say no. So how do I do this? How do I spend I've been on the road on Tuesday Wednesday Thursday.

I was doing business down in Boston in New York, because I knew I was flying out of Boston. So I make a trip to go see customers down there. So I haven't been see, I haven't seen my family since Tuesday. Tuesday morning, I left. Do I like that?

No. I would much rather be at home with my daughter and my wife. That's just a fact. I mean, as beautiful as Iceland is and as wonderful of a time that I'm having, there if it was really if I had my druthers, I would rather be at home with my family. Alright?

But that's not possible. We're called to do some work. And so I've got to get creative. And for me, this is how I do it. If I'm sponsoring I sponsor probably 3 or 4 new guys.

If I'm I just may sponsor 20 guys, but a lot of these guys are in their men's. I'm not you know, we go out and have dinner and ketchup, but these guys aren't you know, they're not calling me with problems. They just know better. But I sponsor probably 3 to 4 new guys at every time to take them through the process. So I have them come to my house at 6 in the morning.

You know, my my wife and my daughter are still asleep. Show up at 6. I'll get up at 5:30. I'll even put some coffee on, and we'll sit for an hour and we'll talk and we'll start going through this process together. You know?