Tom N. from Staten Island, NY and David C. answering questions in a Q&A session at the CPH12 v1 conference in Copenhagen, Denmark

Are you ready, guys? Oh, yes. Excuse me. We're having our own we're asking and answering our own questions. This question is, how have you have you in all situations in everyday life stopped fighting someone or something as described in the 10 steps?

Someone or something. Well, I'll just describe my experience with the 10th set. I can't think of some specific answer. Well, it self will is the answer in general. But for me, the 10th step is it's just a process of constantly taking inventory and every resentment that I get, trying to stop myself and not act on it, and realize that the problem is me and to write it down and acknowledge that the problem with the feeling is in that final column as you saw in the diagram that was on the board.

And so, I find that, the degree that I accept what's going on and stop fighting events around me, if you like, is the degree that I don't have resentment when it doesn't go with me. I can't think of a specific example of one, but I'm as far as it's best I can do. There's a, my name is Tom Needham. I'm an alcoholic. Hi, Tom.

There's a part in our book that talks about, a man, I think it was either Jim or Fred, I can't recall. But he talks about when, when the thought, when the temptation of alcohol comes to him, a great revulsion comes up inside of him. And, I'm human and I suffer from this thing called the human condition. And the implication in the 10 step is that when I'm resentful, when I'm selfish, when I'm afraid, k, I turn to god and ask him to have that removed. Sometimes I'm not awake to that, even the fight, and especially when, we're out in the world in a job.

For example, I think I was talking with, Ronnie about that earlier, And, it's a situation where if I don't take some action regarding that, that same type of revulsion that I had with alcohol couldn't happen just because something like that is pulling on me. I'm fighting something. K. If I'm fighting something, it's pulling on me, and I'm a wait to that. Thank God.

My experience has been when I'm not fighting it when I'm not fighting it, I'm in worse trouble because I'm not awake to it. But if I'm just awake, it says we are not fighting anything or anyone, even alcohol. Anyone or anything, even alcohol. So that that's a that's a huge promise, and I'm not supposed to be fighting anything. My wife has got her path.

K? The people on the job, they have their path. K? The only thing that separates me and the rest of the world out there is that second half of that first step, the unmanageability. But if I stay in that long enough, it's gonna take me back to something that's gonna kill me.

And it's a question about, in page 188, it's talks it's when it's it's basically described the first step call, and then it's one of the story of the house number 3. And it says, there's a question where it says, you can quit for 24 hours, can you? And the answer is, yes. Anybody can do that. And, this question sounds it says in Danish, I'll try to translate it.

I couldn't do that, and I can't I can't get those two things to to go, you know, the, the question and the powerlessness and that 24 hour thing. How can how can it be that they talk about this in the book and and then the person says, I can't stay sober for 24 hours because I'm powerless. But but then here in in the in, let's say, 188, they say, hey, anybody can do it. Or the the alcoholic number 3 says so so. Right.

But alcoholic, alcoholic number 3? Yeah. Okay. And that's in is that the Danish? No.

It's Danish. That's Danish. Okay. 188. We're in I didn't I I thought you were in the first one in 64.

I says, wait a minute. We're into the stories. Yeah. It's in one of the stories. Yes, sir.

Okay. If someone if what you're saying is true, that a person can't stay sober for a period of 24 hours, Well, my book tells me that that man needs help if he's willing to go away. In the United States, we have what they call detoxification centers. Depending upon how how sick this man or woman is, they need that medical attention. They don't have to.

I've experienced delirium tremors. So there's people in this day and age don't have to do that. So if the man is willing, and he has to clear his mind a bit anyway, to be open to what we have to offer in this program of recovery. That answers the question. Yeah, I think the same, I don't know what to do about stopping in the first place.

Mine's in a sense AA stepped in when I had to it was the staying stopped as AA helped me. So, yeah, it sounds good. I have a friend, Dene, who is is, taking relapse after relapse after relapse. What can I do or say to help her, if if anything? Do you have any suggestions?

Well, I can identify with a friend because I was a chronic relapse. Oops. And, the person that asked that question or wrote that question out is here tonight, and the best that you can do is just to demonstrate the principles that god with god's power through you and be there. Because you never know. I don't know.

Some people, they come in, and, for me, my experience was is that alcohol was the great persuader. There's a guy by the name of Jim W. I never got an opportunity to meet the man and but he passed away not too long ago, and he shares it something like this, if you live, we'll get you. If you live, we'll get you. But it doesn't have to be, I have to be there.

I have to be, like Peter said earlier today, I have to be that copy of the big book for that person. If that person is not willing to sit down and get some help. Okay? You know, just so to say I'm powerless over that person, all I can be is an example. Which is actually true over the people who want the program as well.

You know, all we can do is just say here's my experience and it's really down to the individual whether or not they want to do it. And, if they don't, I don't know how to make somebody want it. I can't answer that question. Yeah. You sort of answered the next question I pulled out is what if what if your prospect will not take your suggestions?

I think you just covered that 1 or 2. Continue doing what's working for you. Do you consider hot flash to be essential for getting it or do you believe in momentary enlightenment, sort of small chunks at a time can do with the trick too. Did you get that one? Yes.

I I I think I got it. I I think you were talking about the spiritual experience. And, but again, I have to agree with Peter and that's, you know, like my experience as well. When God shows up, God shows up, and I'll know that. I, when I was first introduced to this, program of recovery, little over 9 years ago, we have been bouncing around for a couple of decades.

I knew something was happening to me. I couldn't describe it. It was like the first it was 4 days separated from alcohol, and someone gave me, something to do with the doctor's opinion. They asked me to highlight everything that I could identify with, everything that I think I should know, and everything that I thought was important, and they gave me that lay aside prayer just before that. And, I suffered from the obsession of alcohol daily.

I it was, I I couldn't as Dave mentioned, I couldn't stay stopped. I had no control, no choice. I was drinking. Period. As I mentioned, I think on, you know, Friday night, they talk about meeting makers make it, and, and I was going to 4 or 5 meetings a week, and I was drinking after every one of them.

So much for meeting makers make it. And, but on that night, and it was only a couple hours before, I, I was seriously considering taking myself off the planet because, I was that guy in the doctor's opinion when they talk about, there are some that make the supreme sacrifice rather than continue to fight and I was at that that place. So I was given that assignment and I did what this man told me to do in this assignment and he was about 600 miles away because I was down in Richmond, Virginia and I, and I did what he he asked me to do and things started to bounce off of those pages. It was the first time that I really start to believe this trust in God, but I didn't see it until a few days later on, and that's the way it usually is with us as we were sharing today. You always see things in hindsight after the fact.

I was too foggy to see it then, you know, and, but I remember after doing that assignment, getting on my knees again, and then going going into that hotel room bed and laying down, and I and I remember vividly, and I don't know where this came from. From a guy that could not stop drinking, that it was gonna be okay. Yeah. For a battle of 20 years in and out of alcohol snobs. So, so you know you know when it happens.

I've had nothing remotely like a hot flash. I'm the sort of person that if I did, I'd just go straight down to the psychiatrist and and assume I was going mad. I just did I would not believe it if it's happened. So thank goodness, God has not sent one to me. I don't doubt that it has happened to others, but it's just not the sort of thing that's going to convince me.

For me, a spiritual awakening is what the big book says, and I've had that result in abundance, a sane, happy, useful life beyond my wildest dreams. The means by which I've got it, you you when you if you sort of look at the progress, if I compare what I was like 15 years ago, you know, it's it's a huge transformation, but at the time I'm not aware of any great emotional surges. It all seems very straightforward. The means by which remember, I mean this we have to talk in sort of our views of God and the high power but God created the world, he created everything, why use the extraordinary to demonstrate it when the world we're used to is created by God as well? So his work through people in a very normal straightforward way.

The miracle, if you like, that I have every single day is that I'm sober. And that is the extent of my sort of emotional surge. I I just don't I'm not the sort of person who reacts in that way and I'm not looking for that. And to be honest, I'd be suspicious if I experienced it. So I'm sure that's why I haven't been given it.

But I don't doubt anything that any other say at all. Different people, we get what we need in order to, you know, God gives us what we need, in order to to make that the effort that we have to make, in order to change. And I think he understands that everybody's different and unique. What is your opinion about the difference between, spiritual experience and, what's it called? The other one here.

Spiritual awakening. Yes. I think it's I don't know. I classify it 1 in the same. You know, I I, my awakening, just like Dave mentioned, you know, it doesn't have to be, you know, it's not extraordinary.

My awakening is that I'm awake today to this moment, that's an experience within itself. I think that's all I have to say on that. Well, I think in this concept, again I wasn't aware of a distinction, I just thought there were different phrases used to describe the same thing. But, you know, the spiritual awakening that alcoholics experience in AA is just one example of many, many different sorts of spiritual experiences that all sorts of people, not just alcoholics, have had over centuries. But I assume that whoever's written that is pulling the phrases out of the big book and I'm not conscious, I've never really registered in my mind any difference, perhaps I'm wrong.

Well, as I understand it, the the manuscript, the original manuscript, and I think I may have it in my book, when I talked, when I gave the form of the, the way the 12th that was going to be written originally, was that we had a spiritual experience as a result of these steps. And then somehow or another, they changed it to spiritual awakening. I guess maybe an experience was, you know, that they they figured that it will an experience, you know, they were focusing on it as opposed to what we see an awakening. An awakening sounds to me, like it says in the spiritual experience in the appendix in the back of the book, talks about, it goes over. So I agree as well.

I think it's one and the same thing. It was just the first 100 drunks couldn't agree on upon which one they were gonna do, and it appears that the awakening went outruled the experience. Go ahead. What is your experience? What in your experience I can't read my own writing.

I think I'll take another question. Just a moment. Is there, in your opinion, anything, like, coincidence? Yes. Coincidence is what we think it is.

It's when 2 events occur that are in a, you know, correspond in an unexpected way. The questioner is saying is, is it guided by God? Well, you know, I believe everything is guided by God whether it's coincidental or not. Whether when I, what I don't do is start looking for signs and symbols and everything that goes on around me. As I say, I believe that God created the ordinary as well as the extraordinary and doesn't need, coincidental happenings and extraordinary happenings to demonstrate that he is good and the world is good.

So coincidences can happen, and God is behind everything, whether outlook. I don't view I guess, coincident has a definition as as they shared. But for me, I I think I'm more to the, I must stay awake. As Peter shared earlier, you know, like, I must be awake to the present moment. And if I'm awake to the present moment, the way I perceive things through the gate grace of God.

My perception of that. There's a guy by the name of Chuck C, and he, has a tape out and a book called The New Pair of Glasses, And, and that's been my experience. A total transformation took place. I don't look at things, you know, the way I used to look at things. Okay.

And I take things, it says in our book, that the uncommon becomes common. The uncommon becomes, I don't, I don't underestimate the power of God today. Can I just come back in that? So I mean, I imagine what the question is saying here is can we start reading signs and symbols into things. I don't know if that's the gist behind the question.

The answer is possibly yes. I mean, any idea, if it puts an idea in your mind, and this is the way I approach it, then it might come from God, but it's just as likely to come from me and I'm misreading it. When I do my daily meditation, I do a quiet time, but like it describes in the big book, and I write down the thoughts that occur. Now, I'll tell you what most of those thoughts are. They're things that aren't extraordinary for me as an alcoholic, but it is things like pay the electricity bill, answer that telephone call, respond to that message.

It's just the standard things in the day. Now, if I got a thought which said, emigrate to Papua New Guinea, I would consider it. Okay? But I I would that's one of those things where I think I I would apply common sense as well. I know I can't be certain that that thought comes from God.

And I think what I would do, I would look at it in the cold light of day afterwards. Having said that, I wouldn't it. I think, you know They wanna get rid of you. Yeah, exactly. Maybe that's what yeah.

But I I for me, common sense so what happens is that, common sense and reason have a greater place in my life now than they did before. I'm better at using them than I was before. I'm prepared to consider other things but if it seemed nonsensical and ridiculous, I wouldn't do it no matter how much I felt it was true. I would take advice. How do you live life on God's terms and not on life's terms?

You know, David shared during his, during his talk about this is a design for a living that really works even in the rough going. I'm experiencing something that's happening in our family, and it's causing a lot of pain. And I have to go back to, my my sponsorship line, a man by the name of Don P, and he talks about sobriety isn't pain free, It's not pain free. Like Dave and, the the experiences, Now the things that I've seen god do for me what I could never do for myself. You know, I've gotta be I've gotta be nuts not to continue and do what's been happening on this path and have new experiences.

So I guess the question is, you know, on life's terms, I'm I'm not immune. Okay. You know, there's a guy by the name of Bob O, he says it so eloquently, the way I heard it. He'll say, well, if you really want to be happy, joyous, and free all the time, maybe you should check yourself into some type of sanitarian or rehab and shoot yourself up with Thorazine and do the shuffle for the rest of your life. Well, I would say that in all honesty, I've not had a bad day in recovery.

I haven't, as I explained, I haven't been immune to, things happening to me. There are plenty of things that I would like to complain about in my life. But my experience is that when I look at what it is I'm feeling, it's either a resentment or fear, and I've been shown how to deal with that. And sometimes I do have to work a lot harder than other times to deal with that. But, it really is down to the amount of work that I put into the program.

And I can only share my experience that really is what how it has been for me. What is what is your experience about one's upbringing being the cause of one's alcoholism? I don't buy it. I don't buy it. I've heard it said, you know, from people that I respect in this fellowship that, why not just take that in a child, throw it out in the street, and let it get run over by a truck?

I'm not saying that we have we don't when when we don't, we have to go back. We have to go back. Our book tells us to go back, but I'm a grown adult today. Okay? And I have to take responsibility for my life, and I have to take responsibility for my participation in this program of recovery.

For too many years, I acted like that inner child in and around the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous, expecting things happening for me. Where's mine? It's a program of action, and, it's action against my will, usually. But then I have to go back to my friend, Mark, when he talks about, you know, we we drank alcohol because of the effect produced by alcohol. It got us to a place of ease and comfort, and I took action.

I took a glass and I put it to my lips, and I I took action to do that. And my friend, Joe, will say that that's what I do today. I take actions against my will. Why do I do it? Because I like the effect produced by it today in this program of recovery called Alcoholics Anonymous.

I suppose what I say is I simply don't know. I mean, I have all sorts of opinions. My but they're irrelevant as regard to my recovery goals. AA, just I had to learn one thing that I was an alcoholic and then how to recover from it. I learned nothing about what the cause was.

And you know, if you ask me, I suppose like most things, it's going to be a combination of nature and nurture, but frankly, it's irrelevant and I'm not interested. One thing that I really do agree with is that we are not the victims of events that have happened to us in the past. We, once we have the program, we are in a position to take responsibility for our own lives and lead happy, sane, useful lives regardless of what has happened to us in the past. How can I tell an alcoholic who only do half the program that it's meeting no more that I think they should do it all, steps with sponsor, without making without making them mad and without doing more damage than helping? Well, I'll come in to we sort of answered this before.

It's it It's like all these things, I am powerless over the alcoholic. All I can do is go to meetings and share my experience, and I tend to spend my time where it is most useful, and whilst if I had unlimited time, I'd be talking to every drunker for a limited period, but frankly, I tend to spend most time with those who want to hear what I have to say. And, and that's what working with others tells me. So I have to it's sometimes it is, you know, I understand where the question is coming from. It when people we love or friends in AA, suffer.

It's it's it's terrible to see sometimes, especially when you know that it's very, very simple. You know, it's simple but not easy, but I have to tell you it's a lot easier than not doing it, when you're in the program. But we are powerless and I just have to I look at that chapter, working with others, and, we haven't been through that in detail yet. I mean, you'll get the answers tomorrow. It's in there.

Yeah. Like David said, and I have to agree, I have to follow the directions in the book, and, and it is working with others, because if a man isn't willing. When I work with somebody, I have to see action. I'll go with you to be taking the action, but if you're not taking the action, I can't go with you. Got another friend up in, Colorado.

He talks about, I care, but I can't care if you don't care. I got a great spiritual awakening two and a half years ago through the steps that changed my life completely. But there is something missing. What can I do to get the get closer to God and that ease and comfort you have talked so much about? Well, there are it's very difficult.

I mean, you need to talk to somebody on a approach somebody who is talking about these things, ask the question and you can go through it. But it comes down to, the steps. It's trust God, clean house, help others. And somewhere along the line, some element of those three things is not being done in my experience and it's not that I can't help. But I've never met anyone yet who is has not had that wonderful experience continue, if they continue to have that emphasis in those three areas in their lives.

Specifically, I'd need to know, I need to know what the person's doing and isn't doing. If you you're either you're doing something you shouldn't or you're not doing something you shouldn't. I can identify with the person that asked the question, I think. When you're talking about having a spiritual experience and it being profound. But I I was at a place where I was attached to that experience, that initial profound experience.

It was life changing. Changed my life. It was drastic. But to be attached to that experience, I'll never have that experience again. Just and it's no different than right now.

We're all here at this moment. We'll never experience this moment all here just the way it is right now ever again. It's a matter of moving on and being awake. K. And more you see, well, I'm even even then when I was having the identification, when as you asked that question, where's my friend, Don?

He says it's like the alcoholic war cry. Where's mine? Where's mine? I need to have another profound spiritual experience. God gave me power.

He wants me to use that power the way I see it, and demonstrate it in the principles in my home, and with another drunk across at the kitchen table. Because we're in a life saving business now. It's not about where's mine anymore. It's about my constant thought of others. Where can I help?

What's your opinion of long distance sponsorship or, in other words, online sponsorship? I don't know. I'm not qualified. Long distance sponsorship. Well, I mean, the answer is whatever works as long as it gets you through the steps.

It depends. I mean, certainly, the way that it depends on the different varieties of sponge, the different ways individuals take it through. The way that I was taken through the steps, it would be very difficult in that initial phase of going through the first 9 steps, if you didn't see your sponsor regularly. You know, I was shown how to do my 4th step, I was, you know, I had to go and see him to take my 5th step. So, if he'd been in California or something, it would have been very difficult to do that.

At the moment, I could foresee I know people who are in my position who have sponsors who are a long way away and that is once you're on 10, 11, and 12 experience, it is possible though not ideal, is what I would say. But perfectly reasonable, but very difficult in the early stages. I wouldn't put that down as a hard and fast rule because it's a case of the practicalities and maybe there are ways that I haven't thought of that would allow that to happen even in the very early days, and frankly, anything is better than nothing at all. I agree. Frankly, anything is better nothing than than nothing at all.

But, for my I I personally have no experience, k, with telephone work. I've always gravitated to, having someone come over inviting him into my home, and, just the way I was invited into someone else's home. And, I'm not saying that that's in fact, even today, my the man that carried the message to me lives in New York on Staten Island, and the message was carried to him by someone that was out on the West Coast in California over the phone. He was a pioneer on Staten Island, this man. He blazed the trail.

He was doing 5, 6 people a night, 5, 6 times a week. He was having a message. So but as far as, the the initial time to do it as, as if you have to do it over the phone, he had to do it over the phone. He he he didn't know anyone around that was actually doing the deal. Going through the steps the second time or the third time, I I don't see any problems with that, because I I have disciplines in place in 10, 11, and 12.

Okay. I guess that'll all that's all I'm saying about that. Can I just say that one thing that I would really say, just from my experience, I have I've sponsored somebody in Ireland and we, actually going through the steps, I have sponsors now who are not in in England, that's latter stage and that seems to work fine? And it was possible, and we did it because there was nobody where he was who had the program as this is in the big book at all. And it was not ideal, we did it, we traveled to see each other, and we got as much as we could in these sort of long weekends together.

So, it is possible. And I would say it's always better to be guided by somebody who's got experience with the program than anybody who's available on a daily basis and doesn't have the experience. It's the experience that's the most important thing. I would say. Do you have experience from getting sponsees that you definitely don't want, but you can't say no?

I've experienced that people came to me, and I looked, and I wasn't too sure if they were willing to go to any lens. I wouldn't say I didn't like them. I would say that, that was my perception of that particular situation at hand, but I can't say no. I can't say no. Responsible.

Next. How do you understand the word vital in Vital Spiritual Experience? What do you think Will meant when he wrote vital? Where is the reference? Say this again.

I'm not sure. Vital spiels it spiels it spiels a lot. Vital, b I t a l. Vital. Oh, that's necessary.

It's it's what is needed in order to recover. Is that am I missing the train of those? No. I I think so. I don't think so.

Yeah. Because I think it it first came out with, like, what doctor Young said, you know, to Roland Hassett. You know, that he's seen vital experience, spiritual experiences occur. They were phenomena, unexplainable. But they, as Dave mentioned, they needed to happen.

And that's exactly what this program of recovery is all about. It talks and uses in the big book terms, a man that knew a spiritual experience approached another man that knew a spiritual experience. And it's saying all through the book, you must have an experience. You can't have mine. I mean, perhaps.

I again, I just occurred to me, vital. It it means not just any spiritual experience to do. There is a specific sword here which is gonna keep you sober and that's the one that comes as a result of the the steps. I mean, maybe that perhaps that was suggested. The word, has different meanings, especially when you translate it.

It could be very vivid. It could be necessary. It could be demand. It could be, well, so what is actually, in this case, the interpretation of vital? Specifically necessary, I is the way.

Necessary. Yes. Yes. It's necessary. Thank you.

I don't have any more questions in writing. It's 9 o'clock, and I don't know if anybody is jumping. I wanna ask something. Oh. Hello.

I have a question for both those gentlemen. I'm a, and I'm a grateful alcoholic. I just want to know I've been, I have a few days in the program, and I just want to know what you 2 gentlemen do with this with not the newcomers, but when you sponsor men and they have got some privacy, how do you work with with your sponsor and see, according to our rights of traditions we have? Do you consider, it is important also to work with new people on the road to all sobriety according to our tradition? And how do you do it if you do it and not I mean I haven't had the experience of, taking people through the 12 traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous.

There are some that have. I guess I've just been busy just with drunks. Okay? But I I know of, people on, Staten Island. I've only been busy with the drunks and working through the steps of Alcoholics Anonymous, taking through the steps.

Okay. You're talking about the traditions. Am I correct? Yes. Yes.

So so what you're talking about is the traditions, okay, and helping alcoholics understand the traditions. There were 36 principles involved, and we have the the twelve steps of Alcoholics Anonymous, the 12 traditions, and the 12 concepts. So when we have the 12 traditions, I know of people on Staten Island who will take the book Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age and work people through the traditions through that. And I haven't had an experience myself with that for the reasons previously mentioned. Working with the wrongs, I guess, I just, you know, drugs come into my life faster than traditions do, I guess.

I don't know. Or how do I how do I continue to sponsor them? Oh. It's very important. And that's important, what you're doing, in terms of knowing our history, and where we come from, and why we come from there, and I agree with that wholeheartedly.

I'll just say that, once I'll go through the way that I was sponsored, and I made I went through the first 9 steps, Well, I did most of my amends within 6 months, and then there were others that I couldn't do at that stage, but I did gradually, but basically I did most of them in the 1st 6 months. After that, it was 10, 11, 12, and my first sponsor died, when I was 9 years sober and I've had other sponsors. So, from that point on, the first thing he asked me to do was then just to read AA Comes of Age, so that I would start to read about the traditions and the history of AA. Encouraged me to go to, in London we have step and tradition meetings, so they discuss a step a week and then once a month you discuss a tradition. And I was told I had to go to one of those meetings as a regular, and if I didn't want to, go to an existing one, start one.

We also now actually have a 12 concepts discussion meeting every 2 months, largely, concepts largely neglected. But, you know, we study those together as much as, you know, it's not really somebody passing on experience, a group of us really thinking about it and studying it. With regard to what the bulk of the conversations were once we've been through those first 9 steps, so I would get questions about that, but a lot of that time, he would be referring me to people who had specific experience in specific areas of service, you know, what I was dealing with. He certainly encouraged me to get involved in other levels of service. So, I, you know, I did a lot of group service as I nicely described, but then I was encouraged to get up into intergroup and what would be the equivalent of the area and I've been a conference delegate, I've been the chairman of my equivalent of area, London Region.

So, I was pushed. I had no choice, you know, I had to start volunteering for those things. So that is how I maintain my development. He would sort of keep tabs on that. But the bulk of the sort of conversation that we would have have when we kept in touch on a weekly basis was actually I would be asking him questions about my sponsors.

I've got a sponsor who's doing this, have you, you know, have you come across this before? So, he was helping me to sponsor and that was what the gist of it was. Now, we would, we we talked weekly for the rest of the 9 years and we would sort of catch up and he'd know roughly what was going on. But frankly, if if I phoned up and said I'm having real difficulty with this situation, he would just say, well, have you done a step 10 inventory? If I said no, the phone would be down.

You know, he expected me to deal with most of these things. I mean, occasionally there were new situations which I couldn't deal with and I needed help and he would talk to me, but he if I wasn't dealing with these things on my own for the most part by now, he, you know, he'd want to know why because, and he doesn't say, he just wouldn't talk to me unless I'd written it down and had a look at it. And usually, when I did that, of course, there was nothing really to discuss. You know, I could see that it was my pride or my self pity or something like that. But nevertheless, we would sort of chat about what I was doing and it was very useful to talk to him if there was an unexpected situation or a serious one that I couldn't deal with.

Occasionally, I would do things of which even in sobriety, I was deeply ashamed. You know, it's progress not perfection and I would, I never drank, but in terms of my morality, you know, I'd fall short of my ideals in areas of my life. And many areas, I didn't, you know, I didn't need to tell him, but if it was something I was embarrassed about or deeply ashamed of, I would tell him those sort of things, as part of the sort of inventory taking process. And then also, he was as good as an objective viewpoint if I was making major decisions. And that's as much a role as a friend, as a sponsor if you saw to me.

But I would, I trusted his advice. I knew he would tell me the truth, if I was making a silly decision over something. So I would talk to him about that. But most of the greatest volume of conversation was him helping me to, in turn, sponsor others. Is that what you're looking for?

Yeah. I just got to whisper a question. I'm over here, guys. Oh, wow. What do you do when you come to a meeting and, most of the people are complaining and bitching about their their workday or whatever happens, you know, the dryer or something like that, washing machine breaking down.

What do we do? In the United States, we call that the firing line. And I just share my experience, my strength, and my hope, and I'm not really too concerned about what if these people are talking about drama of life, as it says in the book. If I'm not hearing something in a meeting about how to have a spiritual experience as a result of these steps, and if I'm here in the middle of the road, that's fine. No.

I mean I mean, I I I can hear the middle of the road, okay, but I don't know who's at that meeting. I don't know if the man is at that meeting that has been seriously considering maybe, you know, taking a gun to his head. No, it's it's I must, you know, that he's suffering from untreated alcoholism, And and this thing of just going to those type of meetings aren't working for him, and he knows it, and he's not getting an answer. I don't know if that man is gonna be there or not. So I just keep on sharing my experience, my strength, and hope in the solution, and not getting involved in all of that drama.

But it's important for me to be in a fellowship, where I'm around people on this path. Because I have to nourish my spirit from people on this path in our fellowship. Yeah. I agree with absolutely everything. What I would say is that there is a danger, for me, my sponsor told me, he said never let the disease win, there may be a newcomer in that meeting just as you said, who doesn't know what's on offer in this program.

It is important that they get to hear the good news. Now, if I'm the only person they're gonna hear from, I must say I do take a deep breath and just go for it, but I because I know that some people aren't gonna like it. But, what I try and do is adopt the attitude. I try and present it in a way that is going to is not going to cause people to dig their heels and resist. I mean it's inevitable that that is gonna happen with some people.

So, I try and adopt the attitude, the frame of mind that everybody wants to be happy and they're just doing the best they can to be happy. Many of those people who are complaining about those things, it's not as if they're like to complain, they genuinely are troubled by these things. It's very clear to me very often with my experience here that they don't need to be, but that that they are genuinely troubled by that. So, I try and phrase use phrases that's that assume that they would like to do this if only they knew about it. You see what I mean?

So, for example, I might say, I have never found it helpful to share my problems in a meeting. I've always found that the most helpful thing is to talk to my sponsor about it and to share gratitude in a meeting and that's what the big book tells me. I wanna explain the reasons. So, and say that if you work on the premise that you get what you give away, if I'm sharing misery in a meeting, all I'm doing is multiplying my misery. Now, the danger always in doing this is that I appear to be, bellicose.

You know, I look like I'm sort of taunting them, you know, I'm great, I'm doing the program, you're not, you're program, you're not, you're stupid. And it is inevitable that some people will take it that way. I mean I just have to accept that fact and they're the ones who, you know, some people are ready to hear that in what I say and there's nothing I can do about it. But I just have to discount those people and aim for those who are genuinely unhappy, don't know the good news and want to hear it. Just think, how can I say this in such a way from my own experience that it's they're going to want to reach out and grab it and then just do my best?

With how successful I am, I have no idea. My name is Ule. I'm an alcoholic. Yes, ma'am. So if your spunky is not willing to go to any any length, How how do you define it and how do you say thank you and goodbye?

Well, since you've said it. It's It really is a case of saying, I only want to sponsor those who want to hear what I have to say, and I just don't get into any arguments or discussion and say, well, you might be right but, you know, why don't you go and find somebody who you are prepared to trust. You know, I had to trust my sponsor and I wanted to hear what he had to say. You may be right. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Perhaps what I'm saying is not right for you. But if it isn't, then I'm not the sponsor for you. And I we I never argue with the sponsor because that's the end of the relationship just as it was with my sponsor On on the critical level of principles and steps, I mean, you might argue about whether Liverpool is better than Arsenal or something, but, on those, you know, there are certain things that from my experience, that's my experience, I can't change. They won't do it. You know, it was quite happily, part company.

I've never I I can't recall being in a position where I have to fire, if you wanna use that word, a sponsee. I wouldn't do that, but it's usually the situation where a sponsee is given a particular assignment to do out of the big book Alcoholics Anonymous, and if they're not doing it, they're not giving me a callback, and they're not showing up at my door, so they're gone before I even get an opportunity to say thank you. They're just not willing to go to any length, and I can understand that. It's it's just a situation where, they haven't hit that place. Apparently, they must think somewhere along the line that something is working, still working for them.