Bob B. and Linda B. from Minneapolis, MN answering questions on step 1, 2 and 3 at an AA and Al-Anon workshop titled

this is the one we have trouble reading but it's just another in the midst of overall it must have been hard to see your son

hang out with a bunch of losers but my question is how your view has changed towards a

would

I don't know what's something about your something about your son's friends today is sick friends instead of losers throughout the the the word losers wasn't improper that was an accurate term of course they were struck yeah we don't do those kids as losers and

they had all a lot of difficulty and they didn't help each other they drag each other down which is not uncommon you know we were we all shot lower companions I happen to be a lower companion to a number of my friends

and

but what happens is when you start to get well

the young man who is just not middle boy which is crazy I thought as an end up in jail you know when I'm after going to five colleges went on to NYU and got a degree in film as well then as now was over fourteen years and is what fifteen years and is working out in LA

he's not the same young man today he wouldn't get all essential as used as as you start to change I mean our our oldest boy

got sober and lived in Europe for five years you came back on an MBA Columbia and

it works around the world consulting is over sixteen years

our our our twenty three year old son was horrible in school not

bad horrible

he has a learning disability his attention deficit he's just like sick he is for all practical purposes did not have a high school education

at twenty three years now starting college

with almost no background

but because she's five years sober because he's got a good attitude it is still horribly difficult for him and with a lot of tutoring he just goes in the second year of school and doing

okay and he's a

in

in a very different

it

yeah and by loser I was more referring to the fact my denial too you know I was denying the fact that anything was wrong with Peter side to make everything wrong with everybody else

do you trust god in every way in your life today no

but we try

so

that's the goal yeah who is got

we have three more days

maybe we were all guided drag

good maybe that's at the very first right recesses of who we be

that we've gotten

not all I've got is my spiritual advisers of the vertical shell out of mine your hand one shell

all the cell would be it would be bop

but that shell would not be everything Bob Welch

you said everything you are is got

but you are not everything the goddess

okay show

it's difficult to hold the ocean of the world in the tea Cup of your mind

how do you make a distinction between being responsible and taken care of in the sense of when you let go or when you left that

I think that's

probably the hardest thing for me in Allentown that boundary between what's my responsibility and what is not my responsibility

I don't have any trouble with you but when it comes to my kids that is a real real tough line

now he said part of that it's

you know he he clearly can function very well on his own and he doesn't I don't feel the same

maybe I don't know no I I did you know for me it's just totally different with the kids now they're adults so I mean I treat them as adults in in there and the lines are pretty clear right now but those times between you know you start off with this person that you're totally responsible for I mean totally that sweet little looking back there you know I mean I can't do anything for himself so his mom and dad have to do everything and then as they get older they can do a couple more things and then the more and more and so

yeah I

isn't that the truth in our family but you know you keep having to move back and then the kids do that to you know leave me alone come you know go away leave me alone go away leave me alone so all I know is I work a real good program around that and that is where I get my help from my sponsor and people who've walked ahead of me

and I do the best I can when it feels like I'm getting into their turf I withdraw and you know I do Sir to get a feeling but I that's a for me that's a real tough that's and it's also to me a real important Allen an issue

I think it's a

but as you start to have

for more open relationship with the universe and the god of your understanding

you just walk more gently you just listen better do you listen to what's going on around it when it's you don't push as hard you know when I'm not listening I'm a hard push when when I you know shorts

you just dance differently when you're connected to your higher power than you're doing you're not

when I'm not connected my advances the ball

how do you get to trusting god now as you talked about any pointers on that

I think the

when the twelve steps of having had a spiritual awakening

that suggests to me that the whole process of recovery is one of awakening

which means to me that as I go through recovery I am more alert I am more awake it's a process it is not

you don't just arrive and stay in one place at one time it is it takes you you go forward you go back to go sideways you go you know you get periods where you have growth you could terreus reassure like you're gone you know where you're just it's a grind you get terriers were

you know you're you get into a serious depression for a couple of years ago it's where your business doesn't work I mean life just shows up and it is difficult to play golf in a thirty mile an hour wind when it's raining

okay

you will have there will be times in your program where you won't look good

you know but

and some of those times you just hang up

you just don't drink and you surround yourself with friends and you do the best you can do sometimes is in pretty

okay

but you don't you don't actually try to do wrong things but sometimes life is just her

really are

you know and there's no it's not a punishment is just return

it's just you know and and and and many of those very hard time also time for us to learn there are you know the universe is trying to push your nose down into it and saying look at this

I was wondering do you use the traditions at home and we should do how to do it I mean that's a three hour with yes we have the correct traditions of home no we don't use them formally

you know we don't aren't aware what happens to me with the steps and traditions is not only do they become

available to your in your head to become available to you in your heart to become part of who you are

so we want to be self supporting we want to be independent you know we wanna have our common welfare you know as a couple come first all those searches for those principles

our spiritual principles just like the structures virtual principles so we to the extent that were aware of them and we've been around them for a long time we tried to

with grief

economic people going there Allen but is there some way that we can tell them or show them that it would be good for them to cut their

well

no we can't make anybody do anything but you know if you've heard that statement that you may be the only

you may be the only copy of the big book that anyone will ever read you know it's

its attraction rather than promotion

and you know if I have integrity in my life and I worked the steps on a continuous basis and I'm honest trustworthy and good to be around that to me is the best advertisement for Allen and and certainly for the variety and the same qualities for eight

you can't make him go but you can maybe attract him and Sean there's a different way to live

a couple of things struck me about that is my high school French four of them are in a

they all came to me

you know I never got in their faces I never got on their conditions you know they're wonderful people they were drunk but they were good people and when the time came they all called me

and

and they've got thirty twenty eight twenty five and eighteen years of sobriety you know and they've stayed in the program in the states over repression my children

as I will tell later I was sometimes violent with my children I was immature angry

and sometimes I would get physical with my kids I'm not proud of that but that is an accurate description of what I watch my father was pretty physical with me and it's kind of like you know crab rolls down hill you know

I wouldn't have been horrible

for my horrible behavior

to have gotten my children when they got the disease of alcoholism the thing that they didn't want to go on the air because of the romance

wouldn't that you know big Lester a

you know that could happen

now

hi I handle that in my recovery I handled it like it's

okay and it wasn't like that's all there was there was a lot of love and a lot of other things

in that mixture we've always had a good relationship were allowed physical family you know and question my boys up today I think they'd say something that didn't sound quite that negative but you know that's the way it works and I am so grateful

that

that they didn't stay away from may because of their father you know as a matter of fact they would say I think they came to a because of what they saw

in the balance of my life you know I was perfect

but they do

they they thought what we were doing in our program was attractive

and when when it was their turn to find health

you know show you are going to be you don't have to preach

people will see

what the program is in your life and they'll buy it or not five

and sometimes they can't see

get off the boat though she maybe later

which version different from the selfishness of alcoholic shorter run short with

yes of course but you know we still have our character defects we still have the traits the thing that for me the biggest difference in the relationship that I have with Bob and the kids so they're you know they're the alcoholics

is that some of the character defects may come up just the same way but my kids so one of them to leave the house and slammed the door and I'm not kidding I can almost count twenty minutes later I get a call

you know mom I was really out of line I'm really sorry and didn't mean to treat you that way that is and how I want to be so we make a man's and

date we all try to be different but we all are you know no one's perfect but yes I mean the difference between

sobriety and drinking I mean

like a structure internal

all change

how can I

practice trust on a daily basis like for instance trusting that god takes care of my children

well you know you have to just keep reinforcing it and you have to keep believing it

because god does take I mean if if I believe cab god takes care of me

of course he takes care of my children

but there's that fear and that insanity that comes in that

I can do it better

or that you know that you're supposed to do yeah John could do it I mean the society I I

we used to get people our kids were always in trouble and people would come over and say can you guarantee your children will not do this again

and we would say no and they would look at us like we were not

and we would say we will do everything in our power to have them be Hey we will encourage them to behave we will punish them if they don't behave we will do but I cannot guarantee and they would look at us like what's wrong with you like I mean they were confident that they could guarantee the behavior of their children and we were confident that at some level you know

there comes a time when when we had a lot of evidence that we couldn't also

and

but that is the hardest when your children are involved I mean having children is like having a bowling alley installed in your health it is not an easy process it takes a hundred and twenty five percent of whatever you have it is I mean the the great relationships of life

with your parents

with your children with your spot which

there's no rule book

I mean it it it takes everything you have it takes a hundred percent of both people in that process

to make it work maybe a hundred and twenty percent of both people in that process to make it work it's a dance it is not you can't tell someone how to be you can

you can point out you can coach

but love is a

I think I've got I mean I really think that

you know my my supervisor shows you know life is a school lovers the subject

and if you're moving in the right direction in your program in life you're becoming more loving

you know and I think eventually if you want to take a look at where your program is taking you you know I hope that is taking us towards love

you know towards gentleness towards you know

did your first experience your higher power is AA and then transition and the gods explain how that happens I don't know exactly how it happened just like the first variant my higher power as

K. as a but I always have a god

I just wasn't comfortable with my relationship with that higher power I have to work that out in a

and it was a gradual transition

my relationship with god has felt more like coming home

them going someplace

you know felt like I've always had the relationship but I just didn't realize it

some point in time

you

are your boys are recovered I understand do you feel when your boys

started to drink

and go out of control

well

oracle

responsible

I should be doing something different if I were differently if I were a better parent this wouldn't be happening

yeah I agree

this

the sense that I could do something about it I mean

you know it's like watching your kid get up on a huge cliff and you know dancing around the edges I mean you're scared

you know I need to learn what can I do how can I get him to stop

I knew it was a disease

but I also knew that I didn't carry the medicine I you know I didn't carry the cure they had that within them and so we had to wait for their time but

arable and we couldn't just wait we have them evaluated we interfered I mean we we in effect on the people it was not like we just stood by and watched you know I mean it is

once we were felt like that was the process once we identify that there was a process of going out but then at other times you know what's going on and you've got a choice you can lose the Kevin

you push too hard as a child leave home does leaving home better for that child

you know I mean

there are black and white answers to those questions some you know we had friends who would say especially when Dan was about fifteen no just let him go put him out on the street let him have the consequences of his own behavior and we talked it over and for us that didn't work he was a kid who didn't have enough skills he would have we thought it would have been eaten up out there and so we did not do that you know we continue to have inappropriate behavior in the house and like Bob said you know we took him to help to get him help but we that was not the right decision for us

for our fifteen year old son

and you have to make your own decisions not easy though if you're an alcoholic you need Allentown as well to deal with your co dependency I'm not codependent interested in this answer

I am

I'm more into murder than I am and the suicide

co co dependency is not my issue I mean there may be times when I with my children you know get into the everybody has part of the more they take care of other people and we've gotten a soul into all these terms most alcoholics I believe did not need Alan

if we invade Allen I'm too much will ruin alum I mean if you're just going to L.

okay yeah I got an opinion on everything from him rise to brain surgery so this doesn't this doesn't mean much but

I don't believe that Asia casually going to Alana

I believe that there are quite a number of of alcoholics that well might need Allen on because they are either married

or doing it but but we will do if we mixed the integrity of the two programs up

this commission mischief in that

the I went down for for months when my middle boy

was having the biggest traveling and one is in treatment

and I left Allentown I will I will it was a men's group wonderful group great guys I knew quite a number of the people I want to try to go as a beginner

I'll tell you something it's hard to surrender at death

to a second issue it's hard enough to surrender at depth to one issue

the kid yourself that you think you can do it twice

most people don't go in that most drunks don't going down on like a beginner they don't do ninety in ninety they don't get a sponsor and calmer free day they don't they're doing a like a social club

things they're not going to like their life depends on

okay well the people who really need Alan on their life depends on

M.

and also this is a black and white sugar don't get it you know but I I want to make a distinction between

how hard it is to

due to program

and there are more people today that do do that and do it well then there ever have been

and the ones who come to Allen and and really do it well

they're such an asset to our program and you know I think Chris I love it so I think Alan and can work for everyone but I do believe and I've seen where

many times the able come not into teachable position you know this is my first meeting blocked and then they'll go off and step whatever we're on for ten or fifteen minutes you know and

that's because they know the step but they know it in their own program and Allen has a different focus

but boy I invite anybody who really needs Allen and if you're a a please come but come open and teachable and as a newcomer

how important the relationship

marriage is it when both are doing the program

it's extraordinarily

image rich and wonderful and works very well

what I would say that is not

usual unfortunately when I came in the a in the sixties most of the most of the people and and recovery were men we didn't have too many women

and most of their spot and I and a lot of their spouses went down

today

I would say that it's a minority it's like thirty percent of

thirty you know I even of the married people the spouses don't always go today for a free in most of the spouses didn't work

finish in the sixties I mean there's a big change today forty years you know after that thirty years after that there's a lot of spouses that don't go in all that don't go to Allen today

and there's still a lot obviously the do

but I I think when both of you have a program and both of you are focused on both of you have those principles that are alive it's just

this just better

and I mean

way better you know have been perfect for rich

yeah I I totally agree and just some

it isn't necessary you know if if your boyfriend girlfriend spouse parent child goes to Allen and because your alcoholic

it it but it gives the same language

and it gives us the basis of the same you know we all have we both have the same tools in there the twelve steps so we were both working out of that same toolbox it it just it things just flow better but one is not dependent on the other but I do believe when that when the marriage between the two programs takes place it's just

it's easier it's just easier

that is

actually