John K. from Dallas, TX, Kerry C. from Harrison, NJ and Tom I. from Southern Pines, NC answering questions in a Q&A session at the Men with Men Group's Open AA Conference in Reykjavik, Iceland

I was thinking about step one two and three for me it came alive I was three days older and it just came to me and I was wondering how how do I sponsored my sponsors if they haven't filled the thirtieth

hi this is for Kerry anything

I'm not sure if I really understood the question I think I did well let's just see will see my my answer if I understood the question right

I can't judge might I can't tell

you what you're gonna sail

my job is to lay it out

my job is to explain

the hopelessness of the situation

in the beginning

stress the malady

painted into a corner

let them reach the conclusion that they are in fact an alcoholic

and when they ask me how in the heck do you stay sober now I got a

now I get to stress what it is and I spend time

going through that doctor's opinion in going through you know pages twenty one and twenty two specially page twenty four page thirty

to paint this picture

and then hit him with a solution and I spent a lot of two of my favorite pages one of my Hotmail accounts is is J. A. Kelly P. sixty three I love that page

because when they get to that page when they see the ugly truth about selfishness and self centeredness and you flip the page are used go over to page sixty three initial what's on this information and I tell them how I did my third step

they then have the opportunity to get what I got better

is that makes did I answer your question

okay

let me add one thing to that if I make that

I don't differ with what John say in but there's one thing that I like to do with a person is recognized that the first thing I want to do is help them regain the spirit to gain the spirit of our car is not not the fact of it

but I want to regain the spirit so that they've got the willingness to engage in the process if I don't do that and I try to get on to to quickly into doing the work of Alcoholics Anonymous I can miss that spirit so one of working on the heads to the heart and and so that's the number one thing that is kind of like it says in the book

and that Kerry talked about it last night at our our it's our experience has conditioned us to be of maximum effectiveness and what we're really given is hopeful and so when somebody comes in I always see a dead person walking this is the first thing I want to do is give him a hand and then the next thing I want to do is put something in his hand

preferably something work with

so I wanted to sort of get back to get a little sense of being in the right place with the right people then we go to work first I want to do is get him in the first forty three phase I wanted to live there no where else and let him get his head right a little bit and it would take off but that's what I like to

I just want to quickly point out that the big book is set up perfectly it is a twelve step in print and if you start on page one and you end up page one sixty five there's nothing more that you need to set I see it I read it was my sponsor he's and by the time I get to step three just like John said they're beaten by the truth their mentality and the big bull doesn't perfectly so all I have to do is sit and read and share with them

similar question but when I heard the words outside second generation comes to you and once was a person who is willing to or you know you asked to be a sponsor of course you say yes and the person he or she is trying to do to work the thing ten eleven and twelve do you start all over again with a new person or

okay

I always start all over yeah it was a saying that to drink is to die

you know I first looked at minute you fell over you know but what it means is that you die spiritually

and so I always start over I don't resume sponsorship I reestablish sponsorship so I want to get out I think the worst mistake that a guy can do a new person can make is to come in under the notion of starting over a resume in the of of of picking up where you left off there is no picking up where you left off

there are just elaborate this much that

for many many years I wondered why it was so difficult for people to come back who had who had gotten us recovery going and then lost it

and Jeez it just looked like it was almost impossible to recapture that day and not and I was troubled by that because I would turn off a lot of funerals of people who just could not make it back

and I ran a thing by William James you know the the fellow that bill will see quite a lot I read a thing by William James it's sad very simply no state of mind

once attained

and lost

can never be regained and visa site

yes there's no sauce second first honeymoon

they'll only be one first anymore

and there's no renewal of of the recovery that is terminate you you you you can't get it back and you watch people beat their brains out trying to recapture what they had they never will

they'll either have to settle for less or go for more

but there is no start backside back to

yeah I'm I'm going to ask the some of the questions that we have here a note I have I have a question specifically for Kerry so how do you recommend making amends to children seven year old children

and locked if you hurt your child again after making those comments

well

I think it depends

the one thing about the nine steps and in the big focus says that when we're when we're making well it says that we need to check with other people before we go to making amends make that really clear so anything that I'm offering today's based on my experience but I haven't heard your first step

so I don't know your circumstance soon it's not my fault

with that said

with that said I think I think that you know what

my daughters never seen me drink but I had to make amends to her because I'm kind of perfect not a fact

barred from perfect I think that one of the things that we have to realize is that our children know when were messed up

you know even if they never saw us take a drink even if they never actually saw what we have the consequences of our drinking I think that my children our children deserve the immense so but we also have to be very careful about how we do it because there's this whole thing about harming others

so it's been my experience and what I've directed the women that I sponsored to do when they made amends to their children and what I have done is I sat down and I've discussed with what they've discussed with the children in general way with their harms weren't

and the thing is the wonderful thing about the ten step

and the eleven step is that I get to make amends every gosh darn day

so the thing is is when when we met when you're when I sit down with my daughter when my sponsors a sat down with their children they made direct amends to their children

they made a first approach they didn't fulfill the men's I do not fulfill my men's until I am in a pine box

that's my experimental I pay back every cent of that money until I stop carving causing harm in people's life in a probably be dead when I do that I'm not done

I don't believe that amends are completed I think that so I believe this is I believe that I you know I have a direct Kankan conversation with the child

Java seven to their their ability to understand so I have to take that into consideration I need to discuss it with the sponsor I need to talk to other mothers

and I might also consulted me from Allen on I have Allen on cronies that I have in my life that I used to bounce this stuff off it too because alcoholics or dance

and

and as much as we well as much as we might work the steps wonderfully sometimes non alcoholic who works is spiritual programming can't worsen twelve steps can give some wonderful advice and so you know I bring I bring these things into consideration but yeah I do think that making a direct message to a child is good but I think you have to be careful

and and the bottom line is this is that

once I have that conversation I make that that first approach you know if I fall short on that I need to own it you know I don't know how many times I've apologized my daughter for losing my temper four out not not doing it right and you know what I'm teaching and teaching my daughter to recognize when she full shortens has said and I taught her to say sorry by showing her how to say sorry

so I am is accountable to my children as I am to my sponsor more so because my sponsor doesn't live with me

and trust me my children will say mommy you're grumpy today

you know so I do so and and that there are been times when I've gone to really stressful times in my life well maybe I was going to involve my sponsor east because I do some radical twelve step work some of the stuff that

the John was talking about and and my children have sometimes taking the back burner because I'm I'm an alcoholic my priorities can get screwed up and I've had to go make amends for that so yeah I do think that you need to do that if you fall short you need to continue to make amends and I think children are people too

transcript

isn't

hello my name is Pete amount you'll come

I have a big heart how can I know I'm not protecting my sixty so you're correct the commission when I'm helping am I doing god's work

or is it because of Michael codependency

so how do stuff with them and helping them

the first

I see how they can make a heck of a lot of difference you get right down to it the you know the fact of the business is that it's kind of like she was asked about this morning

my belief is there's no such thing as an unselfish act

and

that when I do something I'm the winner

and I don't really care what it is you know that's you know what motivates me what drives me is that I want to live in a friendly world I want to live with friendly people yeah I want to live in a world where there's a

that's what I just said that and so to do that I'm the initiator

and so what I find is what I put out I normally get back

normally not always

but I got enough sense to recognize when I'm dealing with an idiot yeah

and I know how to get away you know so yeah I don't in that kind of thing I don't spend a lot of time in analysis paralysis yeah I just I just sat on how I wanna live I practice that as a way of life and then it pays off big time so really don't make that much difference to me

that's the view of the brainy ones might have a different slant on that

no I I I concur with what he says I don't analyze it

Hey I mean my god I will screw up everything you know I just do what I do

I got a sponsor rules me accountable and and and I just I just do what I do I don't think about well is this my ego or you know I have my ego will get out of whack just like everybody else's

but I also have some people that are in my group that I that I run around with that it is my is my little head starts to grow no smack me back down

and if my head starts to grow and I'm in I'm in I'm out there doing what I do I'm not going to be effective

you know so I just I just rely on god to take me where he needs to take me and I just do what I do and I try not to get into what I think I just try to do to do what this says

and then I don't have to worry about what my motives are aware that did my god I said I'm supposed to be relying on god not self analysis I just I I can't do that I mean I I get tired head and I just you know just like oh my god

I

I just take the action and let god take me where I need to be if I need to be corrected we'll all get corrected

and

I step off into it

and I don't follow the guidelines laid down here

my sponsor asked me about it he he asked me a few probing questions he says did you fall in in online no and he's like well Big Boy you bought the ticket now you ride the ride

the ten step give me precise instructions on how to correct these things

I rely on god

I discuss it with someone and then I repair any damage that I've done and I turned my thoughts to who I can help it's a very simple deal

it's a very simple deal and that's a design for living that works see my problem wasn't stopping drinking I don't have a way to live sober

and this program gives me a way to live sober and answered all my problems so I got in

this one I want to throw something in because I kind of different from these guys because I'm extremely egotistical

and there's not a lot of women who do the kind of work that I do so I often get put in the position of an authority in the area that I I live in when there's my sponsor couple of my friends we sponsor tons of women so I go to a meeting and there's twenty thirty women that I've run through the work at that meeting

and you know what I do I pick up cigarette **** in the coffee and the coffee cups in the parking lot I take coffee commitments I don't always turn meetings I don't always if I speak and I know that I've spoken been invited to speak at anniversaries of I've been invited to speak often like after this I'm sitting quiet

I'm taking a greeting commitment I make sure that I'm not just up front

but on behind the scenes

because it's not humility and sitting up here is humility picking up those coffee cups is Melanie shaking hands that's where the twelve step work actually happens it happens at my kitchen table

when no one else is around and no one else sees

and so that's been my experience and I don't allow people to put me on a pedestal

and and that's something that I made very clear because if you carry good messaging people want to believe that you walk on water and I make it really clear to the women that I work with that you're going to kill me and you're gonna kill yourself if you do that

you know and it's about for me it's about humility but yeah my ego has gotten involved but because I want to save people and the truth is is that it's not about saving you and about saving my ****

and what is between me and a bottle of whether or not I'm going to pick up a bottle today because a friend of mine put a big book in a bottle at a table in which one are you going to choose

and the bottom line it comes back to that but yes sometimes twelve step work pastor of my ego and is not means in deep trouble so for me I have to be aware of and I ask myself my taking this commitment is I want to look good

my going to that do this rehab because I want to feel superior from here because I want to help and I let the newcomers speak I let my sponsor you speak I'm not people ask me to speak and I give them five ten phone numbers of the women I sponsor and I'm not always the one who's out there up front but the newer generation can get the twelve step experience women ask me to sponsor them and I am and I said well I can help you but you know what my sponsors are better than me and I let them get their hands dirty

you know that's just for me thanks

okay here's one for Tom where does the line between eighty eight and family life lie how when are you neglecting your family

I'm glad my wife did you hear that question I

and as it as a critically important question and one I think we all have to resolve the John hit it very well when this morning when he's talking about this pursuit of balance it would be a lot of time we get so busy trying to design our lives that we forget to live it

if anybody anybody who gets actively involved in this program particularly if you get into a service dimension you gonna make you're going to be confronted with a crisis in this area of figuring out when do you start to do things at the expense of people the guideline and and and and I tell you this I'm a good guy to ask about that because I have been as busy and Alcoholics Anonymous as long as long as anybody I know and as much as anybody I know so I'm a good guy to ask what I found is that everything I do has principles that establishes

my marriage has principles are principles that I've vowed to observe in my marriage

my program has principles that that are absolute in terms of how I live my life my work has principles and

so what I have to do is live according to principles now there's there's so that's the general way that I try to stay so that on billion of real service and I'm B. and of real value in the relationship that I've made commitments if I am doing stepped in at the expense of something else

Dan I'm off base with the thing like I travel almost every week of my life

and

working Fridays for me it is almost a joke it is always been a joke in my organizations I've had an understanding with all of the organizations that I have been involved with

that we don't meet on Fridays and and most folks well everybody so far well I finish my career so everybody all through my career

where amenable to accommodating my schedule

yeah that was great because if they hadn't been it would have created a real quandary

so what I did is make up for my absence with other work during the week and I was stress situation such way that I could do that so it requires some accommodation like that

in the family

the agreement that I made with my family and I understand that that this is something that I'm committed to

what I do in our cars don't they understand that

and so what we do is plan ahead like when my kids are going to college I use I always ask them about two years before graduation when do you graduate

and they always say how do we know

I see we'll go find out somebody knows somebody who has the information they know exactly what day your class or graduate

find that out the end that goes on my calendar and that is a commitment that's a commitment so I have to plan ahead so that's a reasonable accommodation that my family makes

again give an example that did this yeah I'm not I doubt dwell on this a little bit because it is an awfully important question

fundamental to it is to differentiate to make a difference between activity and commitments there's a big difference so very important difference I said I was active most of those actors directivity is are optional

coming to Iceland was optional

once I put it on the calendar it was not optional

but it was optional at that point

mmhm this this is just an action as an activity but I don't live or die with this my home group is not an option

is not negotiable

on Monday and Thursday night I will be at my group unless there's something of overriding importance in my judgment

like I will sometimes I'll go to speak another group or something you **** I think there's a real purpose to be served

but that's a commitment

the big difference between committed action and activity

and out and I will dwell in a more but at the to me that's an awfully key distinction that store starts to sort this out I'll tell you how that works in real life

my son is a

I told somebody to break out I thought I thought he was working on becoming a good a member because we we need we went away to school he majored in fraternity and and was was really look good

for membership

and

they went bad and when in the medicine

and so now he's a physician and a busy guy and he's got enough money to take us to dinner so he could he he came to visit one time

and he said I would like to take you place some do you guys put someplace nice for dinner I suggest be great for a change

and I think he's

and he and then he called himself he cut himself he said this is meeting not

you know what I'm saying

this is meeting night I didn't say I've got to go to a a and that's more important than you

he understood the commitment that's part of knowing me of no and what I stand for

you can trust somebody who keeps commitments you can't trust somebody who's unpredictable

and so that's an awfully key distinction and sorting out about this sort of sort of hazy balance eight between between one piece of my life and another it's a matter of being accountable of being responsible so that folks can trust you and know who you are and once they do they can either accept you or not

but if you're somebody who's hard to pin down you're going to be hard to trust as I think that's what it comes to their their some of it is fairly hardline

but I'm not playing a parlor game I'm at my stakes here are my life

and so everybody who knows me knows this thing and and so I think they call that integrity of B. and what you say you are

very important question

he

the

hello

I was thinking M. O. last week I find myself in this situation almost ten of arguing a mental obsession for those phones

because

he was having thought that he was alcoholic and I was thinking about going out to think of three

and the big folks suggest that if you're still not convinced is it called five to three is thought

an iPhone there is no such concerns are I can find

you know I learned I could accept this from us from C. or just the two of them that went through that this test I don't know if you thought a suggested things testament on the looks of construction

he is best put John for

I don't suggest that

Hey it's a it's a truism that this is what we could do

let's say it was you you know when I'm working with you

I have no way of knowing if that if that that is your last drink

and I'm not going to lead you to your last

I laid out the information and and and and I and I talk to these people and and

I can I am not going to get in between you and god in your last drink

I'm here to share my experience

and if a guy doesn't want to do what I do

then he needs to do what he needs to do

and I'm not going to interfere

you know I mean I could be a hard **** and say well Hey come on let's go to the liquor store

and and and that's always been an option but I found that

if they're not sold

in their heart if they have a lurking notion

there's nothing that I can say to keep them from drinking so they're gonna have to do what they have to do nobody could keep me from drinking

no fame could keep me from drinking

until I ran out of options until I had no more lurking notions I was never willing to go to the links that I go to

and

I pray for them and and I asked god to do what they need to do

and and I let them go

and

I think that's my final answer

something on there I've actually been asked that question a couple times you know because as I go through the book with responses we go through all the different tasks or several tests to make gnostics not weaknesses are more about alcoholism and one of the things that I focus on a lot with that thing because you know get the newcomer in the course so you know I can drink

it says go drink

and the two things one it says take the test I heard and I got this from a couple dozen Texas to take two drinks a day for thirty days sentiments and what you know do you think in your heart of hearts you can take two drinks a day for thirty days I'm like no man I could drink drink two drinks a day for thirty days I said well does not mean you're an alcoholic

that's a trick question because any real alcoholic who's faced with the idea of only taking two drinks a day for thirty days knows that they can't drink two drinks a day for thirty days we all know in our hearts that two drinks a day for thirty days in not going to happen might have been for one day you might have informed our there's no way on god's green earth it an alcoholic could take two drinks a day for thirty days and take no more than that

so that's what I do when I get to that question as many as four point is that all about I settlers test two drinks a day for thirty days and say well I can't do that and I said that's because you're an alcoholic

you know so I think that that's sort of like a one of those two questions but there's other testing there and as the book goes

you reach two more pages down and it says well you know all these tests are pretty arbitrary instead let's take a look at the way that we think

preceding a relapse instead I'm trying to test how we drink why don't we test how we think and decide whether an alcoholic to the question doesn't end with those tests that actually those are just one aspect of it so if you keep going the next couple pages and you go through jam and all with the hopes that the guy's name

yeah Fred the guy they know no no cloud on the horizon guy you go through those

the stories you know they are just as powerful as those tests if not more

yes speed but it has been good to see if there's problems in other media but if the fundamentally

yes so

a question for Tom do you do you set some ground rules two people new sponsor for example Hey how many meetings so we can be how long time you will get to go to the twelve step how long time you would get to reach the twelve step yeah

let me let me tell you my approach to sponsorship what what arrived at

I believe that sponsorship is a tremendously important personal relationship

I also believe it's a shared relationship

and so I won't go into sponsorship without a substantial period of time and planning and negotiating how we will operate

and so I don't dictate how will operate

people are not the same and I don't have one set pattern by which people are going to behave and so what I do is meet with people and then we will work out whatever kind of arrangement is going to be workable in our agreed to judgment

and so we'll do that and I've got some minimum standards that that that that I do have some fixes out

one is a home group I don't have to be mine I don't care where he goes to meetings but a home group is something that I think is tremendously important I'm not going to be data somebody floating in space

and so

also do agreement that I am the only game in town you know if I'm going to be just barge I'm the only one you've got

I'm not somebody who believes in service sponsors and spiritual adviser and all that stuff yeah I'm a one stop shop in you guys yeah and so so if if I'm the sponsor I'm the sponsor

and a new guy shows up we're back to the negotiating board because of what I will do that so those are kind of kind of kind of fix things

a service activity

preferably one that takes you outside the group

now there's not much better work in washing coffee pots

but that's a kind of a narrow realm of service

and so I I want to have a service commitment that puts you into the world somewhat like that going to that broken down re what will wind up wind up place

that's a service committee so so things like that very important to me

it is not so much what I want to dictate but that we have a real clear agreement about what we're gonna do

when I say sponsorship break down

it's almost always traceable back to the lack of proper planning proper establishment of the relationship so that is understood and so when I do that I feel pretty good

as somebody stops me at all and and you you know you run into at all times and I stopped me and how I had a guy just well backed it moved in from California and I have to my state was always cross country

and

you have to understand the United States to understand this but when you move from California to rural North Carolina

you got culture shock big time I'm a lack of culture shock and so I I go to this meeting speak to a group

and this guy comes up and says thanks will you sponsor me

and I said no

he was kind of shocked you know he said well my god you will you at least talk to me yeah I'll do that

yeah but you know my Pat answer would be no I'm S. like hidden or somebody in a bar you know that's not sponsorship you know that's tags stuff you know and all I got was responded to was he was looking for signs of life

and he saw me and recognizes signs of life and and but if I had agreed to that it would have been stupid yeah and so what we've agreed on now is that we're going to meet we just made a mint green last week

once a week we're going to meet

now the only way I could do that I'm not sponsored but we're going to meet once a week the only way I could do that is that I sponsor a prison and some will meet him at the prison so we'll take care of his needs while he's taking care of somebody else's needs who will do it both ways so anyway that's that's kind of a long long

way of visiting that key thing I said was I do not have a set method

I I I absolutely insist on real negotiation three qualities I want in place I want I want to know does that I'm the guy I'm the sponsor

and that I've got unlimited access to that person's life

I don't sponsor somebody's not drinking I believe that alcoholism is an illness that's totally consuming so I want access to the life

I want an open invitation to walk into that person's life without any apology or any advance notice

I'm the guy that can walk up and start talkin dinner listening argue later if they want to but I want to understand what's going on we'll talk first

and then we'll we'll we'll we'll we'll we'll talk a little more if we need to I think it's an awfully awfully important site

that

once you ship it is my most tangible link to Alcoholics Anonymous and so I don't want that to be a light weight kind of a little social range but I want that to be an important investment that I'm going to let somebody into my life for somebody to let me into their lives so I want to do that on good solid ground

if you guys

yeah

this

headhunters

okay how's the weather over a figure with perfect

these two John how to hold sponsors accountable

I can give a smart **** answer and say booze to hold them accountable

I will do that

no we have guidelines I don't have like a really set in stone I DO but I'm I do almost what he does we're going to form a partnership in which this is what we're gonna do and

there's no gray area you know it it's kind of like a leadership type deal you know if if I if I if I take on a guy in in I'm not clear and then this

messes up that's not his fault that's my fault but I but I do

set some guidelines and parameters and

should they neglect those are fall short of those

it's my job not in a group setting but one on one to sit that person down and say you know we had an agreement here

and it was decided in the beginning that you're willing to go to any length to recover from this illness and it's my got my job to guide you through this work and I see in this area that you're falling short of our agreed upon goal

why is that

and we've got some counter measures in place

and they're either going to do it

or they're not gonna do it

and

I found that if in fact if it's kind of like that integrity thing if if if I go to them and speak to them in a clear and understanding in a loving way and and show them this work and show them from my experience how this work and what I'm asking them has benefited me

they're more than likely going to do that

and

sure they have their own ideas my hat's off to

you know it's kind of a let me know how that works out for you

yeah

add account of accountability can be Ross sometimes

I guess probably the word though though the most things that

I don't know probably probably attending service commitments that's probably one area that the debt is greatly and I hold my guys I hold their feet to the fire on this

I I think another thing is the thirteenth step

and I'm just totally of the opinion that that

just because there's a good looking girl in a a that she's fair game especially a newcomer

and I do hold them accountable

and and and I and I do say that you know that kind of nonsense this is a safe place and that kind of nonsense is not going to go on in our group

and that kind of puts me on the wrong side of a lot of folks but but I see that that from my experience is that is that is what that is what is needed

and

I just I just don't have too many big problems like that

I mean they

it seems to all work out my my sponsor holds me accountable as well

in the end there's been some times where he's given me some suggestions on what to do what how you know how things are gonna work out and I just do not get it

and I swear I'm gonna find another sponsor

but I follow his advice and I follow his directions

and every time a day or two or three goes by

and I'm sitting in front of my sponsor St you know what you're right

I did what you suggested and what I thought was the reality was not the reality in your experience has guided me to where I needed to go and that works out and now I get to pass that on to my guys

I don't fire anybody

they fire themselves

so I got

I get a lot of questions anyway

so

Kerry the casual sex question mark if both people agree question mark help

give me the good ones national sex

well

all right I'm gonna give you my honest opinion

I don't believe that cat sex can be casual

the memo says that session should not be taken lightly so that we shouldn't like get too crazy about it also says that we shouldn't take it lightly I believe that in this day and age there are massive consequences for sex and I think that women we tend to have sex with men I'm speaking for myself I