Steps 4 & 5 at the Carry This Message group's first annual Fall Retreat in West Orange, NJ

welcome back again my name's Dave dot I'm alcoholic but let's start let's start back up with the serenity prayer again to get things back on track

god

Graham in the strategy to accept the things I cannot change

the courage to change the things that I can

and the wisdom to know the difference so now we're on step four

we talked about at once that decision making the third step was a vital and crucial step but it would have little permanent back unless we really took a look at who and what we are and

it worked for me I really feel like the fourth step is where the rubber meets the road step one two and three I find it most people are either they're they're not

and for acquired from action I mean taking a look at our lives especially when we come in with our lives are shattered in the rack and the wreckage is

no it's it's a potential

and and I kind of

we're going through what I go through the four step rather book

I've seen the the different guys I I've you know I believe the twelve and twelve is a is a good tool after you've gone through the the twelfth that sort of in in hindsight to help in large and and deep in in this is just my experience I mean you may have a different experience my wife

I would disagree with me that is our sponsor hatter kind of incorporates some of the things out of the other twelve involve interest up to for me I passed on the way it was passed on to me and as I see it here the directions and this is the direction that I give god I sponsor they're they're pretty straightforward three less

the first letter that and and they you know they give us a little a little gamble there and the ball on how to do that and and they break it up into three columns

you know you've got the the first column which is who

and on the second column which is really why and the third column that's sort of what effect now

I don't really get it the first time through but I've sort of gotten in and in retrospect and and as I continue to do the four step it is really a fourth column did not show an example but it discussed in the in the Texan and the forthcoming what was my part

you know and it's often they're about often we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate

and I'll give an example one of my resentment that it really

sure that very clearly

you guys one of my best friends in the high school got a job and I had to get that many guest yes I put Jeff in the first column now why would I resemble Jessica just slept with my girlfriend and then find out about it for two years and I was the weather and I found out one day to jump up with my girlfriend and I was pretty pissed digest

how would that affect what industry up the relationship big time in the two years later you know and and I went looking for Jeff and then in a little bit of a drunken rage there and didn't find it but I found a truck that be distraught up instead of being an alcoholic what you know

read it struck up and I also knew some things about jobs something that he had told me in confidence and so I probably disclosed that to some other people

get it done some similar things to some other people that I know what their girlfriends and and and probably need to spread the joy amongst the people around me and to where Jeff was was a very popular guy and actually moved out there because he was involved in this

just sounds like a first class **** doesn't really stunning I mean if if I stop there

in my mind Jethro I mean that's you know kind of friend best friend does that

F. four kam says what's my part

going to get a little interesting

the my part in it was in a drunken blackout before Jess up with My Girl

I slept with just girls

so now it just doesn't look quite so bad anymore does

I stepped on the toes of my fellows in every county in

you know and so that's what com can really in my in my experience make a big difference when looking at the resentment and and you know when I went through that list and and made there that there are some it was there were some resemblance I just didn't know what to do

and I really believe that when we come to that that's the real value of doing and I'm jumping ahead a little bit but the real value of doing this this stuff with someone who has experience with stuff

okay and and the book gives a some lead way in who we do it with and all that and also the time the book was written there wasn't a whole lot of us around so you know I I believe they gave us a lead way for a reason that often people mission today I've had guys that I find it that they want to do with your psychiatrist or psychologist who they're free you know and I can I share my experiences you know

it's up to you do you deal with

my experience is that if you're going to pick a priest I know priests that have experience with the twelve steps but in a region I I really think it's important where we deal with have experience because often

has been vindicated me I think it's been the case on the other end as being a sponsor and passing it on the sometimes we just don't have a clue what to do with terrorism but someone who's had experience of the twelve step and take another other people says steps have different have different perspectives and often you know when I said no with my sponsor there was a lot of things that I really know what my part was in it there are things that were done to me that really truly I I I was in the way of it that I didn't bring one you know and we all have some of those things in our life

but god knows as much as I was a victim I certainly victimized people

so I I believe that although I don't believe in dwelling in being a victim of a wrong in the past I also do believe in offering forgiveness I wish to be forget

you know so that's one of the things that came out of a word that meant for me number one it's important to to to take a look at what my part ended number two it's important if I don't really know I understand resentment to rely on a sponsor who had experience with the staff to help me guide me through saying my part if there is a part and and trying to put it to rest and really the third thing in resentment is as for those resentments where I really truly didn't have a part

this to walk off for those people the same forgiveness that I wish to have offered to me for the things I've done in there with a long list so that's the first part for them is the second part is here as I see it and I talk about lifting our fears going down on paper I tell the guys whether you know whether they're rational rational you're free to snakes right now you're free to women right down your credit that's right now you're free to fill your right

you know and and you know what I find is it often and and in sobriety

did our life can be run on fear even surprised

once we deal with resentments fears or something that fit the resentment seems to fade pretty quickly for the most part

at this year's remain

and this solution to fear is fake but as Tom said late last night when he when he talked about what was being said

I can't remember

truck truck we talk about trust in what he said trust what came to me that they did not enough and we said trust we came to my mind was that with that line it says faith without works

his dad did really faint by itself without the action is is is not enough

this is the face with the work

you know as and when we get trucks

now it's cheaper yeah yeah and and so the solution the fear is indeed face to face with constructive action

and and that's what I found is that

and somebody asked a question exam a touch on it briefly and this is just my experience they're different people out there this is a kind of a a controversial question on do you do could you talk about after doing the fourth step do we need to continue to do it again or or is that what the ten steps for my experience is largely that's what the ten steps for except now I have gone back and done another fourth I've done many four steps one particular areas of my life where where I've seen the same behavior the same fears or the same issues come up they were paid at least it's just it's it's it's a glaring this time to put him down into that with my sponsoring go over again

and so when I look back and I I say my first sports job there wasn't a whole lot to incriminating there I mean there's a lot of junk place so it's amazing how little power that dove had every now whenever I'm getting ready to go through the fourth step instructions with guidelines are often will do it at my house and an apple Alison I'll say here take a look at the top five do that first subsector minding

John right off the bat and all that different from the deep dark secret that we all hold I just drop right out here you go

you know the stuff that was my jump the stuff does my garbage just up that I wanted to keep inside is now a tool to be used by god to help them take the action that they need to take

you know that's the power of the garbage of my life is now that is it can be used at the bridge from them got

you know what our system

just barely write him down and and often they don't go away some of them go away quickly someone go away slowly but as I've gone back a couple times that I I went back and really re did a a force that and I look at that original list and I'm like

so many of the major fears I had fears like whole stay sober

do you remember that you have when you're really believed in down the bottom notch takes over whether alcoholism would kill you

today I don't live here today I really believe that if I keep doing what I've been doing that has those kind of Sears anyone

and I fear that god will help me

twenty one this kind of fear their big fear

yeah the third listed really talk about our sex conduct and I kind of classified ads who ended you really need to areas one of the things you don't want to talk about

right and you know that we all have that with us and I found out that with all of this stuff that I've got no idea how many I've done that done a fair number I'm not to know that we're at least on the guy's side you know I respond to one girl she was a lesbian I thought it was okay

you know I I figured at that you know that the reasoning behind why he wouldn't want a woman's mother maybe the same reason why I wouldn't want you know what I would want to women's locker I would want

it was probably it it was brief anyway he didn't last long

right

you know it the the section kind of but I just didn't want to talk about you know things like childhood sexual experiences or abuse for this sort of thing and I've gone on to the list of things you just really don't want them but I found it I just close them to my sponsor did he have him too and I found out with the guys that I sponsors I just you know I just close the ride of a couple of my point to them just to make them Benavides I don't know if that they're not there I wonder about

and then and then the second thing which is which I think is really the the bigger point of a second and Tory and add on that really affected me towards a good way to put it is your ideal

what's your ideal and approval please leave us a lot of a lot of leeway there because we're not to be the arbiters of what other people one family and one of the big topic now falls in on itself it is relationship

right and so what I what I asked guys what I ask god to do and that you want to take that inventory is

I started building an ideal

what is it that you

so for me to decide for you decide to start putting down on paper what is your ID

now I know it might be a lot

no I wanted to be a husband

I wanted to be in a committed relationship with a woman that I love I wanted to be faithful to her

I wanted to have the love and respect of my family my children

now that wasn't you know and that was I knew that was the idea when I started

you know I did move directly to that idea you know I wandered around a little bit to try to find whether or not that was really my idea and that's very much what I believe I had to do

yeah I had that idea and I'm faithful to my one of them was there from eight years and I think

you know that's a big deal for

if they care for you but you know in in trying to develop what is it

what is it that I wanted out of relationships with the opposite sex and then try to take steps in what I have

the guys I sponsor do because this is often something that isn't done one time but it is a continual and if we want to thank my sponsor refused to talk to me early on

he really did he would not talk to me about a particular subject unless I didn't inventory on October first six months your first year

for the record I did you know that guarantees that

but it was really valuable because as I write things down on paper I would see you know that if I went to a relationship and and I was like I was treated poorly and I I spent you know I I sit down and take an inventory of what my pardon was attic I come away with some with my team with an idea of the table well I chose this person first of all as much as my partner and then I take it a little inventory of what my behavior was like and what it was like in that relationship and help me shape an idea of what I want

you know for example I I found out that I wanted a woman who had a big heart who is caring in general

you know that was very important

I also found out that I wanted a woman who was who was virtually full with a mentally for

at one point in my life I didn't want at one point in my life I wanted to be the dominant one in the relationship I wanted to be the smarter you know I wanted to be the one answer a control thing that my wife and my relations is not at all like that today my voice is a very smart very intelligent very capable strong woman if you don't put up with my current position you know

and and so when I try to step in to control the relationship she reminds me pretty quickly that I am not the one running the show

you know and and I'm and I'm grateful for that and I appreciate that and so although often things when I first look at what is my ideal the my ideal dies they shape and refine who continue continuing to take that inventory of what I want you know and and and really what god wants I mean it's one of the things I think it's very powerful moment or it did it help and going over with another person I mean it's taking inventory of my own

triplets but to sit down with someone who has some perspective on my life who is in between my ears or my diseases and then to have that person offer offer me guide is indispensable

so that's my experience with the fourth step in just like just like with that with the third step cabinets all written down is a very little use if I just sit there and hold on to the piece of paper in there and look at it

and when I got done writing this thing

it wasn't really

when I got done writing

I felt like a sick and twisted human being

I felt like this was just a horrible horrible horrible person

and I couldn't wait to get rid of it

I couldn't wait to get rid of and so in the system and how much time will take over here shortly that I believe forty five a couple days if I hold on to that garbage belonging don't disclose

it is meant to be it's meant to be ego deflating process you know it's not meant to be you know an ego building process and I talk about deflation in death you know if you do take that image or you know like a wonderful person I really wonder whether or not you belong in Alcoholics Anonymous

you know because our lives a soul sickness of our disease your case is the place it's been called in to do things that that there are horrible

and we know it that's why we come here you know we know it Tom thought that these searchers

thank god at last night's big surgery and I believe part of what brought me to Alcoholics Anonymous but the fact that I knew what what was with the way I was with it dipping that I did just eight of my soul you know until I just couldn't stand me

you know and so I didn't come here with some ideas that I was a wonderful human being he was misled a little divided but it is about holistically I came here believing I was the person who had a twisted dark soul it was in desperate need of help yup not that I mean the four steps on every occasion

welcome J. anymore I don't

as it like club

like days I used three columns in the big book

and

there is a place for a fourth column but I moved that into step five

that that's where it was with me but it does make a difference as long as you do it

that's on

racial

of resentment what what is your resentment a lot of resentment is have an anger

and short of

phoning it

I am justified as she gets set as showcase whatever we feel that anger in my justification of

over and over again

yeah it's like watching out of

plays football and got what do you guys do is adhered reaches way up in the air sketches the ball and somebody hits you could even ask right

voices she's that much for her because she really got hit you know and

then he played back in slow motion hello if you need help with his partner rips you know that's the reason I play Bacchae anchorage

that should respect and she's wearing it and change the

and moved to say if I'm angry with you or by chase just fifty fifty deal she wished for to dial one arrest Shaver over again the more she was sixty percent at all and I was afforded

Abbas shattered you she's seventy percent wrong

not get it down to maybe died you died in one

perfect yeah I got over a year the challenge to jewelry to help with getting your reach

that's what a resentment is you might experience to refuel the anchor in getting some kind of pleasure out of reach of rage

it's a judgment by the unqualified me

I love you judging that case you can judge me that live with me

that's affirmative

don't make a great issue with that I love these people because I have issues obviously some doubts what collection couple times you don't get cleaned out the talk

issue

I'm so important I have issues of well of a job within the every time I got to I got a little **** got going to locate a takes care of that issue looters once

yeah

issues is nothing but self centeredness blown up

it's a big deal because it's mine seven your first flight

we cannot afford resentments

as I said reseal against distort the facts

adding to the pollution again or

distorting the facts

we're moving away from the truth and as we move away from the truth we move away from guys who wish officers that were really on our own I feel lonely there's a lot of resentment stone chip

reject it will isolate you from other human beings

if you're careful of yes or no

how do you does it I'd say good luck beaches too okay

and I did and then they're done that got the teacher

you different now he

during a

you just take your different

amber you're saying he's got use it didn't meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous

he should hear wait pretty good humor man this is not always about where we're at

there's just five percent

no possibility you may take show that your business

I'm not here to tell you what to say

here's to examine for myself what happened and had it I feel

yeah you see if you're feeling all peachy cream in his life which is fantastic that it couldn't get any better you know that kind of stuff you probably don't have to do it the stock options however if you have a cat a discomforting your

you may have to be doing some things

the

like

what are you resentful

what was the biggest reason you came up with what was the base we usually up all pretense from

the pretense goes like this I just want her to have the right thing

as a pretext we should get a pretense off it means I just want her to do it my way

as for her good

what else

wonderful wonderful what a contract so you are better

prostate

get your weight on

this represents really does

it will lead

if we take all our actions problem one that all the affected

we try to get down to the lowest common denominator with that he'll have to come

the big book talks about a new German place

one of the big promises operators here

fear of what others will think about this if they know the truth about this there's a fear

if people knew that I wish is incompetent as I really am that's scary

I'll try to project an air of confidence and self sufficiency which is a lot of crap

consultation which the truth

regard apparently not self defense

this is true

it's okay for me to be less competent than I pretend

as long as I

Casey got defense industry to spell

but Tom dependent I have to project a lot such a nice way of saving lives

why

what do you prefer the taste of and you gotta watch the directions is what every six carried away with the big twelve like I did one time

published published a

convention in Maryland

and

every girl I knew they were supposed to have four speakers talked in one section surprising that yeah and she had a quick couple women want younger guys to talk to somebody something happened to him there's a real wide hallway you know

this is about five years ago eleven sixty six and you know

she says

a memoria reassures me

Tom Tom to raise a short distance in the

just can you do such as your home or where you were in a room so I go here's hoping for people to troops I would tell you Dave for this is it order now

sure we go in there and I just read the big book I want to reinstate that picked it up it says do not be discouraged if your prospect does not respond at once

sure can't find another alcoholic his try against

you're sure to find someone desperate enough to accept with

what you what

we thought it a waste of time to keep changing the man who cannot or will not work with you

so be careful what you pick up and let it show you know what the subjects

very careful that

I wish your fear for a moment to come back to that

as far as I know based on my experience and I've never lived like a monk

of

there's a way to contraception the kind we admit the kind we don't

so the company that is normal right now we have to kind of we don't

it starts with most others with some top childhood experiences which I've had to

and

when you look at nature you find out it's not a moral issue what it is it's a space really young people curiosity

now are there is no issue charge of morality who accused of some form of morality to protect the young

and use the punishing approach you will be a permanent cookout if you do this or do that or we don't

such local people think they're going to help her permanently at eagle point oh yeah

should one of the twisters

our goal for awhile anyway

all of these kind of things but it's what what motivates that history curiosity the young

thank you underlying motivation it has no moral issues at all for you that you wish to put the warning

I believe in my life it is artificial

well super imposed

of that which is against that which is not cool the young animals to do the same thing

you know

they say she's too young adults of the same sex attraction

they load up

so

nature

don't put something when it's at the bottom

probably

the ultimate sexual experience

is an equal exchange well

because of her vision of mutual growth

if it's one sided

it may be fine but a collection

it has limited

shelf life

three

what a conditions upon which it was started have been so still

there are many young girls

for instance

the second highest just happening

they never stop in this

after they learned nothing

about situations if you will for this

many young girls get pregnant

it's not actually

not next the New York based approach

they're not informed they want to have something you think you'd be a hundred percent sure

I love the rest of your life

S. underlying reason

it may not be the best reason for their success they have a failed

if you listen to enough of five percent featured

if you listen

a lot of these guys with diplomacy over the system

they're too busy

that's slightly inventory says these information on the subject already clogged

seven despite his it all filled up she

so is sexual matter should be able to trade up for for that reason

I'm not qualified to say how you should love show me the sexual exchange for blood pressure pressure which I think it is

my father Fleischer

how you should learn how often you should

I'm not

if you are that your business

but I

I think in this area here love installers or stock options yes

she's a very good question

now there are people

will believe that they are harmed by

sexual infidelities partners

that can produce great results

unsafe to make

the active shelves every week

is thoughtful painful mostly country

but

it happens all that often but it happens and not to be a recognizable

we have resentments about there's

share the resources they

so

we have to look at

commitment

nature

members of the party feels for

was conditional

I will love you only if you do certain things

I love you if you help me with my career

I would love you don't gain too much weight

I'm not making light efficiency

enter

she was a real broad brush

yeah

to develop a resentment to have hurt feelings about it natural

to reveal the hurt feelings

is your builder version

and you have a resentment it is like you taking we should expect someone else to drive

don't work and

we do

forgiveness

that's the end of your

the world centers we gotta learn to forgive and forget I think it's a lot of crap

have many wishes tries that fails

a a a support rate

that we have to learn yes but we don't have to learn to forget

by prayer and forgiveness we have truly circuit we don't have to forget

remember the losses for each pay

this is the A. approach

remember the long

that's all I know about section most of it I have to do from memory

L. we'll talk a little bit

that fear

the basis of fear

what do you wish Tom's basis here well I will get some pricing I need to fear right

they said you're gonna get drunk again hi this is a priority for god's sake

but when you reduce fear down to its lowest common denominator

fear is the absence of troops

as we fear has

and trust

is the presence of the troops

absolution trip

that's the instance of fear

Kashish chief officer true

so it's reasonable to say

that fear is practicing the absence of god

that's the basis of fear

I am in a situation of wonderful is that judge Moro who

I have a incompetent attorney

I'm going to go to jail for her thirty six years

well she she lives so

which is true

the truth is

the judges want to college kids

the truth dish you are one god she is

truces the defense attorneys when a guy's kids in the prosecution's one occurrence cage if you jury trial all twelve of them were Shiksha statement

for all of god's church

the important thing is that you know that

it's not important that they know

Q. for Nick you know

all right now

the dearest teacher guides kids

and the ultimate

god is in control what happens here that's what trust is really open

for many of us have to experience that

like recently

correct extra

K. rations

so fear

is to practice the absence of god not much talking gates your few minutes ago

we're we're talking

and the

I said you know

you know that your awareness of the client is

being close to you and in which he

when you pray it's a local call

thank you

if where you pray a Stormont just call your practice in the absence of got it way out there someplace

it was everywhere

I wish I didn't step three

we would be directed by this guy didn't

sure let's follow the directions

be aware

this is god's universe

we are temporary tenants

in his universe

phone anything I've never seen anybody population I've never seen anybody get buried with a big house

Michael do

I don't see any bike it's very would be color

we're portfolio stocks you know

the servers and rock and

but

it's very many got economically specific

what is the presence of god

that is the answer and we have to practice the presence of god orders for John you practice the president I don't you change the damn subject

the

change the subject

this will be

I guess we should move to five days transaction for

do we do okay transcript of Westminster park arts would you fly down

we'll get over to

well

why do we really do five design truck driver gave me a reason for

I'm reading a book you know

while the sand trucks are

right what do you wish to sixth grade dropout

he says friend your payment for one tool will only open half way around the world around will call in a prescription drug room room room maturity is a lack of experience you know you know I just told you all my experience the young ones zero three

he was very impressed

and he says

flames

you lack experience like I said he didn't hear me

he has here in age and sometimes I talk too long shot Jamal you know I I

a reader were sensitive people we notices context in a place here in Israel and

end of

he says to me

you have happenings in your life you have no use for

oh sure I knew we had to be

I didn't know where I was three and

the shares you have happenings

he says unless you convert those happenings

to experience they are of no value your condemned to make the same error again

you must convert to happenings to experience is like converting a check

to a cashier's check if you put it in the spiritual thing and then you can crawl on

well this truck driver should talk again

hello

some

naturally he I said how do you do that well he he says you take your happenings you share yourself Tom what really happened not what did you intend to happen

Tom why it's not what you people should yourself about have been pretty if you

what really happened

in ninety eight done come home

yeah he says you gotta say what part did you play in it Tom X. using all others

she's a server well yours curfew horde beaches it's harder to live life without doing that

gesturing she's not as his collar you're trying to live life without parole when

when your own experiences questionnaire for you help you and that's what Steph's lives about

to take all your air emissions of crash improvement of spiritual thank

and you can draw on it when you share it other men and women control

it's negotiable instrument now

share

I kind of hope David instincts Avenal and stuff

in nineteen

and I didn't know how to put proper perspective one and that's the reason we share with another human being I could talk to me about all I want and I'll probably lied to me again and say you know

which part of commercial I did just the courage to do it you know we do that kind of crap so many cars

sure we do we all do it submitted some double billed with

Thompson

would you do this for

we will

I learned to Kurdish unity through

would you like it or not so I was a liar I go to confession to a priest online if you give me three or five year record actors every two weeks we do that with us what status you know

read up and checking

this is different this is not like impressionist the spectator section I suggest you go to a sponsor someone is gonna get a little different perspective

she just Barger says your problem was not lying use office linebackers it was

you told her she's going to take care of some trying to be a big shot from Kurdish